(10-04-2020 10:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  For a couple of things, the NFL has more teams now, and rosters are bigger, so there are many more jobs in the NFL today. With 32 teams and 53 players per roster, there are now 1696 players, whereas in the 1950s, with 12 teams and 33 players per roster, here were 396--more than a fourfold increase.

Last expansion was 1976. It would be interesting to compare, say, 1988 or 1998 to now.

(10-04-2020 09:37 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  Question for the historians. Seems to me that Rice has a historical number of alums in the NFL Yet, the last 10 years or so could easily be amongst the worse in history (except maybe the 80's?). Why? Perhaps depth? Or lack of development? Horrific playcalling or game mgmt? On playcalling, my oldest and I were talking about the Texans and their insistence on running fast RB's up the middle, which reminded me of McGuffie up the middle, sigh......

https://riceowls.com/sports/2018/7/23/ow...draft.aspx

Rice draftees by decade
2010 - 6 (plus several current NFL players who weren't drafted)
2000 - 4
1990 - 4
1980 - 8
1970 -- 23 (and decades before that were pretty solid too)

I personally wouldn't label this past decade as sub-par. In fact, there are several current Owls in the NFL (Boswell, Vance McDonald, Andrew Sendejo) who have had long successful careers. In the 2000's, none of the 4 draftees did much in the league outside of James Casey. The 1990's were a little better than the 2000s thanks to Donald Hollas, Bert Emanuel and ND Kalu (plus you could add the undrafted Larry Izzo in there), but I'm not sure it's better than the 2010's - maybe it was a wash?

You really have to go back to the 1980's (Courtney Hall, Darryl Grant, Earl Cooper and others like the undrafted Michael Downs) to find a more successful decade. And then obviously the ones before that were better too.

Last NFL expansion was 1995 - Carolina and Jacksonville. Yes, there are more NFL teams now and bigger rosters, but there are also more FBS teams (30 new teams since 1989). And the draft has gotten smaller in the number of rounds in recent years, so I'd say Rice's draft record in the 2010s has been fine. I'd be shocked if they get 6 draftees in the 2020s.

(10-04-2020 10:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-04-2020 09:37 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  Question for the historians. Seems to me that Rice has a historical number of alums in the NFL Yet, the last 10 years or so could easily be amongst the worse in history (except maybe the 80's?). Why? Perhaps depth? Or lack of development? Horrific playcalling or game mgmt? On playcalling, my oldest and I were talking about the Texans and their insistence on running fast RB's up the middle, which reminded me of McGuffie up the middle, sigh......

For a couple of things, the NFL has more teams now, and rosters are bigger, so there are many more jobs in the NFL today. With 32 teams and 53 players per roster, there are now 1696 players, whereas in the 1950s, with 12 teams and 33 players per roster, here were 396--more than a fourfold increase.

One other thing, and this is a personal opinion. I always thought Bailiff and his staff did a better job of developing individual skills than of developing team skills. I thought most of his teams underachieved because they managed to be less than the sum of their parts. For example, in 2011-13 we had two corners who started in the NFL--Callahan and Gaines--but overall we were not a good pass defending team. Or another example, we had a couple of truly outstanding punters/kickers--Martens and Boswell--but we were never very good in the kicking game as a whole. To me two classic examples of our kicking game woes were 1) the blocked field goal attempts returned for TDs by SMU, or 2) a game at Tulsa where we scored a TD, got the PAT blocked and returned for 2 points, and then gave up a TD on the ensuing kickoff return, so we scored 6 but gave up 9 and fell 3 points further behind. I just never thought we developed units that played well as teams, even though there were some good individuals.

My observation was really compared to the 70's, 80s and 90's with the exception of Kramer, Earl Cooper, Michael Downs, Courtney Hall, Daryl Grant and Donald Hollas-that may have been it. Rosters aren't that much bigger now. But yes, we seemed to have had individuals, and not the whole better than the sum of the parts.

(10-05-2020 06:09 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  

(10-04-2020 10:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-04-2020 09:37 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  Question for the historians. Seems to me that Rice has a historical number of alums in the NFL Yet, the last 10 years or so could easily be amongst the worse in history (except maybe the 80's?). Why? Perhaps depth? Or lack of development? Horrific playcalling or game mgmt? On playcalling, my oldest and I were talking about the Texans and their insistence on running fast RB's up the middle, which reminded me of McGuffie up the middle, sigh......

For a couple of things, the NFL has more teams now, and rosters are bigger, so there are many more jobs in the NFL today. With 32 teams and 53 players per roster, there are now 1696 players, whereas in the 1950s, with 12 teams and 33 players per roster, here were 396--more than a fourfold increase.

One other thing, and this is a personal opinion. I always thought Bailiff and his staff did a better job of developing individual skills than of developing team skills. I thought most of his teams underachieved because they managed to be less than the sum of their parts. For example, in 2011-13 we had two corners who started in the NFL--Callahan and Gaines--but overall we were not a good pass defending team. Or another example, we had a couple of truly outstanding punters/kickers--Martens and Boswell--but we were never very good in the kicking game as a whole. To me two classic examples of our kicking game woes were 1) the blocked field goal attempts returned for TDs by SMU, or 2) a game at Tulsa where we scored a TD, got the PAT blocked and returned for 2 points, and then gave up a TD on the ensuing kickoff return, so we scored 6 but gave up 9 and fell 3 points further behind. I just never thought we developed units that played well as teams, even though there were some good individuals.

My observation was really compared to the 70's, 80s and 90's with the exception of Kramer, Earl Cooper, Michael Downs, Courtney Hall, Daryl Grant and Donald Hollas-that may have been it. Rosters aren't that much bigger now. But yes, we seemed to have had individuals, and not the whole better than the sum of the parts.

Off the top of my head here are some other guys from that time period that at least had a cup of coffee with an NFL team: Hosea Fortune, Doug Cunningham, Larry Brune, Rodrigo Barnes, Larry Barker, maybe Preston Anderson - I'm sure there are several others - Hambone for example.

(10-06-2020 07:40 PM)wrysal Wrote:  

(10-05-2020 06:09 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  My observation was really compared to the 70's, 80s and 90's with the exception of Kramer, Earl Cooper, Michael Downs, Courtney Hall, Daryl Grant and Donald Hollas-that may have been it. Rosters aren't that much bigger now. But yes, we seemed to have had individuals, and not the whole better than the sum of the parts.

Off the top of my head here are some other guys from that time period that at least had a cup of coffee with an NFL team: Hosea Fortune, Doug Cunningham, Larry Brune, Rodrigo Barnes, Larry Barker, maybe Preston Anderson - I'm sure there are several others - Hambone for example.

I found NFL stats on Pro-Football-Reference.com for all but Larry Barker on wrysal's list ... including Hambone, who's a member of The 100% Club: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ijam01.htm

(10-07-2020 12:44 AM)Almadenmike Wrote:  

(10-06-2020 07:40 PM)wrysal Wrote:  

(10-05-2020 06:09 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  My observation was really compared to the 70's, 80s and 90's with the exception of Kramer, Earl Cooper, Michael Downs, Courtney Hall, Daryl Grant and Donald Hollas-that may have been it. Rosters aren't that much bigger now. But yes, we seemed to have had individuals, and not the whole better than the sum of the parts.

Off the top of my head here are some other guys from that time period that at least had a cup of coffee with an NFL team: Hosea Fortune, Doug Cunningham, Larry Brune, Rodrigo Barnes, Larry Barker, maybe Preston Anderson - I'm sure there are several others - Hambone for example.

I found NFL stats on Pro-Football-Reference.com for all but Larry Barker on wrysal's list ... including Hambone, who's a member of The 100% Club: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ijam01.htm

Larry Brune had a fairly long career in Canada, and played briefly in the NFL. Last I heard, he and Val Belcher (former UH, teammate in Canada) were doing a chain of steak and Mexican food places in Canada.

(10-07-2020 12:44 AM)Almadenmike Wrote:  

(10-06-2020 07:40 PM)wrysal Wrote:  

(10-05-2020 06:09 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  My observation was really compared to the 70's, 80s and 90's with the exception of Kramer, Earl Cooper, Michael Downs, Courtney Hall, Daryl Grant and Donald Hollas-that may have been it. Rosters aren't that much bigger now. But yes, we seemed to have had individuals, and not the whole better than the sum of the parts.

Off the top of my head here are some other guys from that time period that at least had a cup of coffee with an NFL team: Hosea Fortune, Doug Cunningham, Larry Brune, Rodrigo Barnes, Larry Barker, maybe Preston Anderson - I'm sure there are several others - Hambone for example.

I found NFL stats on Pro-Football-Reference.com for all but Larry Barker on wrysal's list ... including Hambone, who's a member of The 100% Club: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ijam01.htm

Perhaps he meant Tony Barker? He played for Washington in 1992.

BTW, here's the entire list of Rice players that PFR has any stats on: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/schools/rice/

(10-07-2020 12:44 AM)Almadenmike Wrote:  

(10-06-2020 07:40 PM)wrysal Wrote:  

(10-05-2020 06:09 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  My observation was really compared to the 70's, 80s and 90's with the exception of Kramer, Earl Cooper, Michael Downs, Courtney Hall, Daryl Grant and Donald Hollas-that may have been it. Rosters aren't that much bigger now. But yes, we seemed to have had individuals, and not the whole better than the sum of the parts.

Off the top of my head here are some other guys from that time period that at least had a cup of coffee with an NFL team: Hosea Fortune, Doug Cunningham, Larry Brune, Rodrigo Barnes, Larry Barker, maybe Preston Anderson - I'm sure there are several others - Hambone for example.

I found NFL stats on Pro-Football-Reference.com for all but Larry Barker on wrysal's list ... including Hambone, who's a member of The 100% Club: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ijam01.htm

Just call me the Place Kicker Whisperer.
I got to hang around 2 college kickers who never missed a kick in an NFL game.

(10-07-2020 07:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Last I heard, he and Val Belcher (former UH, teammate in Canada) were doing a chain of steak and Mexican food places in Canada.

That would be the Lone Star Cafe, which they opened in Ottawa in May 1986. It was instantly popular and expanded to have at least 24 locations, under the corporate name, Lone Star Texas Grill.

By the early 2000s, both founders had sold their interests in the company. Val and another partner started the Big Easy's Seafood & Steakhouse.

Here's a link to a pastor's September 2011 blog post (with photos) about his relationship with Larry: https://4euroinformation.wordpress.com/2...onnection/

Belcher died in September 2010. But his son Layne is keeping the family's "Texas smoked brisket" with "secret-recipe barbecue sauce" Belcher Burger alive first with his Urban Cowboy food truck and then in his restaurant.

(10-07-2020 09:47 AM)gsloth Wrote:  

(10-07-2020 12:44 AM)Almadenmike Wrote:  

(10-06-2020 07:40 PM)wrysal Wrote:  

(10-05-2020 06:09 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  My observation was really compared to the 70's, 80s and 90's with the exception of Kramer, Earl Cooper, Michael Downs, Courtney Hall, Daryl Grant and Donald Hollas-that may have been it. Rosters aren't that much bigger now. But yes, we seemed to have had individuals, and not the whole better than the sum of the parts.

Off the top of my head here are some other guys from that time period that at least had a cup of coffee with an NFL team: Hosea Fortune, Doug Cunningham, Larry Brune, Rodrigo Barnes, Larry Barker, maybe Preston Anderson - I'm sure there are several others - Hambone for example.

I found NFL stats on Pro-Football-Reference.com for all but Larry Barker on wrysal's list ... including Hambone, who's a member of The 100% Club: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ijam01.htm

Perhaps he meant Tony Barker? He played for Washington in 1992.

BTW, here's the entire list of Rice players that PFR has any stats on: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/schools/rice/

Yes I meant Tony Barker, who transferred here from Kansas. I played with a Larry Barker (who at least had the size to go pro, but wasn't able to start for us).

(10-07-2020 11:46 AM)ruowls Wrote:  

(10-07-2020 12:44 AM)Almadenmike Wrote:  

(10-06-2020 07:40 PM)wrysal Wrote:  

(10-05-2020 06:09 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  My observation was really compared to the 70's, 80s and 90's with the exception of Kramer, Earl Cooper, Michael Downs, Courtney Hall, Daryl Grant and Donald Hollas-that may have been it. Rosters aren't that much bigger now. But yes, we seemed to have had individuals, and not the whole better than the sum of the parts.

Off the top of my head here are some other guys from that time period that at least had a cup of coffee with an NFL team: Hosea Fortune, Doug Cunningham, Larry Brune, Rodrigo Barnes, Larry Barker, maybe Preston Anderson - I'm sure there are several others - Hambone for example.

I found NFL stats on Pro-Football-Reference.com for all but Larry Barker on wrysal's list ... including Hambone, who's a member of The 100% Club: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ijam01.htm

Just call me the Place Kicker Whisperer.
I got to hang around 2 college kickers who never missed a kick in an NFL game.

ru, maybe you need to be more specific - I was a college kicker who never missed a kick in the NFL - the vast majority of us can make that claim, if you know what I mean.

(10-07-2020 05:35 PM)wrysal Wrote:  

(10-07-2020 11:46 AM)ruowls Wrote:  

(10-07-2020 12:44 AM)Almadenmike Wrote:  

(10-06-2020 07:40 PM)wrysal Wrote:  

(10-05-2020 06:09 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  My observation was really compared to the 70's, 80s and 90's with the exception of Kramer, Earl Cooper, Michael Downs, Courtney Hall, Daryl Grant and Donald Hollas-that may have been it. Rosters aren't that much bigger now. But yes, we seemed to have had individuals, and not the whole better than the sum of the parts.

Off the top of my head here are some other guys from that time period that at least had a cup of coffee with an NFL team: Hosea Fortune, Doug Cunningham, Larry Brune, Rodrigo Barnes, Larry Barker, maybe Preston Anderson - I'm sure there are several others - Hambone for example.

I found NFL stats on Pro-Football-Reference.com for all but Larry Barker on wrysal's list ... including Hambone, who's a member of The 100% Club: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ijam01.htm

Just call me the Place Kicker Whisperer.
I got to hang around 2 college kickers who never missed a kick in an NFL game.

ru, maybe you need to be more specific - I was a college kicker who never missed a kick in the NFL - the vast majority of us can make that claim, if you know what I mean.

First response: Think of Dr. Aurelius Hogue's response to Dr. Ben Stone.

I actually thought about my specificity lacking statement when I wrote it. So, to be more precise.....
I held for 2 college kickers who are listed in the following database (https://www.pro-football-reference.com) as having played in the NFL as place kickers.*

*One played for the Chiefs and the other on the Browns roster for a game. Neither missed a kick but only one of them actually attempted a kick in an NFL so technically the other wasn't in the 100% club. But the other does hold the NCAA Div 1 record for most made FGs in a single game.

(10-07-2020 06:15 PM)ruowls Wrote:  So, to be more precise.....
I held for 2 college kickers who are listed in the following database (https://www.pro-football-reference.com) as having played in the NFL as place kickers.*

*One played for the Chiefs and the other on the Browns roster for a game. Neither missed a kick but only one of them actually attempted a kick in an NFL so technically the other wasn't in the 100% club. But the other does hold the NCAA Div 1 record for most made FGs in a single game.

Ahhh. Northern Arizona's Goran Lingmurth, who holds the NCAA D1 FCS record for most field goals made in a game -- 8 -- which he achieved on Oct. 25, 1986, vs. Idaho.

As you said, he was on the Browns roster for one game ... during the 1987 strike year.

Here's a link to a fun article about Lingmerth's record-breaking FG and the accolades that it brought him: https://nauathletics.com/news/2012/12/28/12_28_2012_654

> > > Summary:
With NAU beating Idaho 21-0 and planning to run out the clock with 30 seconds left in the game, Sports Information Director Wylie Smith urgently called the coaches from the press box to say that Lingmerth could set the NCAA record if he made another field goal. NAU called the time out with 3 second left, and Lingmerth made the historic kick.

"I give Wylie Smith 90 percent of the credit for having the record of 8-for-8 field goals," recalled Lingmerth from his Florida home.
< < <

FTR, the D1 FBS record for most field goals made in a game -- 7 -- is held by Mike Prindle (Western Michigan, Sept. 29, 1984, vs. Marshall) who played three games for the Detroit Lions in 1987, and Dale Klein (Nebraska, Oct. 19, 1985; vs Missouri), who is not listed in pro-football-reference.com.

And the pay is much better. Back then many draftees did not sign and went straight to their after football career. Leland Winston went straight to medical school after the Chiefs offered only a $11,000 bonus. Not even the prospect of going to the Super Bowl was enough to get him to sign in 1967.

(10-04-2020 10:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-04-2020 09:37 PM)texowl2 Wrote:  Question for the historians. Seems to me that Rice has a historical number of alums in the NFL Yet, the last 10 years or so could easily be amongst the worse in history (except maybe the 80's?). Why? Perhaps depth? Or lack of development? Horrific playcalling or game mgmt? On playcalling, my oldest and I were talking about the Texans and their insistence on running fast RB's up the middle, which reminded me of McGuffie up the middle, sigh......

For a couple of things, the NFL has more teams now, and rosters are bigger, so there are many more jobs in the NFL today. With 32 teams and 53 players per roster, there are now 1696 players, whereas in the 1950s, with 12 teams and 33 players per roster, here were 396--more than a fourfold increase.

One other thing, and this is a personal opinion. I always thought Bailiff and his staff did a better job of developing individual skills than of developing team skills. I thought most of his teams underachieved because they managed to be less than the sum of their parts. For example, in 2011-13 we had two corners who started in the NFL--Callahan and Gaines--but overall we were not a good pass defending team. Or another example, we had a couple of truly outstanding punters/kickers--Martens and Boswell--but we were never very good in the kicking game as a whole. To me two classic examples of our kicking game woes were 1) the blocked field goal attempts returned for TDs by SMU, or 2) a game at Tulsa where we scored a TD, got the PAT blocked and returned for 2 points, and then gave up a TD on the ensuing kickoff return, so we scored 6 but gave up 9 and fell 3 points further behind. I just never thought we developed units that played well as teams, even though there were some good individuals.

(10-08-2020 11:43 AM)75src Wrote:  And the pay is much better. Back then many draftees did not sign and went straight to their after football career. Leland Winston went straight to medical school after the Chiefs offered only a $11,000 bonus. Not even the prospect of going to the Super Bowl was enough to get him to sign in 1967.

Richard Chapman was drafted #1 overall by Detroit and chose not to play professional football.

(10-08-2020 11:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-08-2020 11:43 AM)75src Wrote:  And the pay is much better. Back then many draftees did not sign and went straight to their after football career. Leland Winston went straight to medical school after the Chiefs offered only a $11,000 bonus. Not even the prospect of going to the Super Bowl was enough to get him to sign in 1967.

Richard Chapman was drafted #1 overall by Detroit and chose not to play professional football.

I am surprised you didn't use this topic as a segue into the contrarian discussion.

Is NFL participation a good barometer to assess team quality for Rice? I would say probably not.

Rice had a receiver drafted in the 1986 NFL draft. Obviously, he had the desirable numbers the NFL was seeking but did he make Rice a better team? How successful was he at Rice?

Before the NFL-AFL bidding war, lots of grads went on to do what they came to Rice to do - earn a good living. But when the bidding went up to the high levels, it was not too long before "Pre-NFL" became a major of choice, and one much easier pursued at many other schools rather than at Rice.

(10-08-2020 03:20 PM)ruowls Wrote:  

(10-08-2020 11:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-08-2020 11:43 AM)75src Wrote:  And the pay is much better. Back then many draftees did not sign and went straight to their after football career. Leland Winston went straight to medical school after the Chiefs offered only a $11,000 bonus. Not even the prospect of going to the Super Bowl was enough to get him to sign in 1967.

Richard Chapman was drafted #1 overall by Detroit and chose not to play professional football.

I am surprised you didn't use this topic as a segue into the contrarian discussion.

Is NFL participation a good barometer to assess team quality for Rice? I would say probably not.

Rice had a receiver drafted in the 1986 NFL draft. Obviously, he had the desirable numbers the NFL was seeking but did he make Rice a better team? How successful was he at Rice?

Elliston Stinson was an outstanding sprinter for the track and field team - I know he ran 10.16 for the 100 meters. You can't teach speed, and the 49ers took a shot in the 10th round (he would be an undrafted free agent these days, with a 7-round draft).

It was a bit curious that SF would go for a sprinter after having so-so results from the great hurdler Renaldo Nehemiah (who returned to track and field in 1986).

(10-10-2020 10:59 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(10-08-2020 03:20 PM)ruowls Wrote:  

(10-08-2020 11:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-08-2020 11:43 AM)75src Wrote:  And the pay is much better. Back then many draftees did not sign and went straight to their after football career. Leland Winston went straight to medical school after the Chiefs offered only a $11,000 bonus. Not even the prospect of going to the Super Bowl was enough to get him to sign in 1967.

Richard Chapman was drafted #1 overall by Detroit and chose not to play professional football.

I am surprised you didn't use this topic as a segue into the contrarian discussion.

Is NFL participation a good barometer to assess team quality for Rice? I would say probably not.

Rice had a receiver drafted in the 1986 NFL draft. Obviously, he had the desirable numbers the NFL was seeking but did he make Rice a better team? How successful was he at Rice?

Elliston Stinson was an outstanding sprinter for the track and field team - I know he ran 10.16 for the 100 meters. You can't teach speed, and the 49ers took a shot in the 10th round (he would be an undrafted free agent these days, with a 7-round draft).

It was a bit curious that SF would go for a sprinter after having so-so results from the great hurdler Renaldo Nehemiah (who returned to track and field in 1986).

Yes he was.

https://www.ustfccca.org/2017/04/feature...in-the-nfl

This is all subjective. The standard was Bob Hayes. The above is a link that had track and field athletes who went to the NFL. But even that list is inconclusive. They are forgetting the field part.

https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/Top-...ll-of-Fame
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ellard

Ellard was quite the triple jumper in college and as you can see from his Wikipedia page he qualified for the Olympic trials in the event. Ellard could do something other track and field guys had trouble doing...catch the ball*.


*In college, Ellard was second on his football team in catches to drops on catchable passes in fall camp. He had an amazing 24/1 ratio. The best on the team had a 27/1 ratio. Another NFL receiver from that team had 18/1 ratio and the rest of the receivers ranged from 8/1-12/1. However, Ellard did suffer a compound dislocation of one of his fingers trying to catch a ball in practice once.

Interestingly, there was a joke about track athletes trying to be receivers..... 4.4 speed with 5.0 hands.

Nice article in yesterday's Denver Post about Bryce Callahan: https://www.denverpost.com/2020/10/16/br...past-form/