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What if: ACC thinks ahead of B1G, invites Penn State in late 80's as well as FSU
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #41
RE: What if: ACC thinks ahead of B1G, invites Penn State in late 80's as well as FSU
(09-11-2020 02:14 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  With Penn State on board, it wouldn't have surprised me if the destruction of Big East football would've occurred much sooner.

I suspect the Big East could have been more stable because I could really see PSU and Maryland getting petty and picky with northern members. Blocking the likes of Pitt and others, I suspect. Good for Rutgers maybe down the line, too.

Maryland was unhappy and problematic for a lot of reasons then, but I know they kept their location a big deal. PSU would then become the ACC’s northen outpost. I think the two of them would agree in not pushing too much further that direction. Then again, I wonder what it does for Miami, since I could see PSU resisting that, too?
09-15-2020 07:30 AM
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Statefan Offline
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Post: #42
RE: What if: ACC thinks ahead of B1G, invites Penn State in late 80's as well as FSU
(09-13-2020 07:52 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(09-12-2020 06:17 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(09-12-2020 05:55 PM)Statefan Wrote:  I understand, but a 12th would have been needed for a conference championship game. Without ND in that mix, they can be at best 13th but I just can't imagine Miami still being available because the SEC is going to take them over SC. The SEC main goal is the State of Texas. They will always take Arkansas to make a Texas school feel more at home. If the ACC picked up PSU and FSU, Miami just makes better sense to go to 12 over SC or VT. The SEC was not as attractive then as it is now, but with an offer, Miami would go and would likely stay. JMHO

If PSU goes to the ACC, there's nothing to say that the Big Ten would take Pitt. That conference is not the type to settle for #2 in a state without already having #1. So Big East football can form as it did in our timeline, meaning Miami is off the table for the SEC.

This may not be the case with Pitt, but some #2's in a given state are still enormously valuable. Texas A&M is the prime example. Florida State is another.

The B10's interest in Pitt after PSU going to the ACC would have been two-fold:

1. The State of Pa
2. Pressure on Notre Dame - a longtime Pitt rival
09-15-2020 04:25 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #43
RE: What if: ACC thinks ahead of B1G, invites Penn State in late 80's as well as FSU
With Pitt, I would think Pitt would be a bit aggressive about making that move to the Big Ten, too. The struggle the two schools (Pitt and PSU) to stay at or above the other. Pitt didn’t want to be at the same level as PSU, and got to the Big East. PSU didn’t have the votes. When PSU got the Big Ten nod, it wasn’t like Pitt could go right to the ACC...ACC was so cool to the idea of further expansion.

But, put PSU elsewhere, and in a place many of the Big East schools would have also liked to have been, and I just get that hunch Pitt quickly gets to work on the Big Ten.

Then again, Pitt probably would have had to have committed to its OCS. It was (still is?) a big deal to the Big Ten schools. I remember hearing rumors back in the day (like 90’s/early 2000’s) that Rutgers keeping their stadium was with the Big Ten in mind.
(This post was last modified: 09-16-2020 07:19 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
09-16-2020 07:18 AM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #44
RE: What if: ACC thinks ahead of B1G, invites Penn State in late 80's as well as FSU
(09-15-2020 04:25 PM)Statefan Wrote:  
(09-13-2020 07:52 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(09-12-2020 06:17 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(09-12-2020 05:55 PM)Statefan Wrote:  I understand, but a 12th would have been needed for a conference championship game. Without ND in that mix, they can be at best 13th but I just can't imagine Miami still being available because the SEC is going to take them over SC. The SEC main goal is the State of Texas. They will always take Arkansas to make a Texas school feel more at home. If the ACC picked up PSU and FSU, Miami just makes better sense to go to 12 over SC or VT. The SEC was not as attractive then as it is now, but with an offer, Miami would go and would likely stay. JMHO

If PSU goes to the ACC, there's nothing to say that the Big Ten would take Pitt. That conference is not the type to settle for #2 in a state without already having #1. So Big East football can form as it did in our timeline, meaning Miami is off the table for the SEC.

This may not be the case with Pitt, but some #2's in a given state are still enormously valuable. Texas A&M is the prime example. Florida State is another.

The B10's interest in Pitt after PSU going to the ACC would have been two-fold:

1. The State of Pa
2. Pressure on Notre Dame - a longtime Pitt rival



If we had taken Miami only....the addition of Pitt and Notre Dame would have followed to get the ACC to 12, where we should have stopped.
09-16-2020 07:29 AM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #45
RE: What if: ACC thinks ahead of B1G, invites Penn State in late 80's as well as FSU
(09-16-2020 07:29 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(09-15-2020 04:25 PM)Statefan Wrote:  
(09-13-2020 07:52 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(09-12-2020 06:17 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(09-12-2020 05:55 PM)Statefan Wrote:  I understand, but a 12th would have been needed for a conference championship game. Without ND in that mix, they can be at best 13th but I just can't imagine Miami still being available because the SEC is going to take them over SC. The SEC main goal is the State of Texas. They will always take Arkansas to make a Texas school feel more at home. If the ACC picked up PSU and FSU, Miami just makes better sense to go to 12 over SC or VT. The SEC was not as attractive then as it is now, but with an offer, Miami would go and would likely stay. JMHO

If PSU goes to the ACC, there's nothing to say that the Big Ten would take Pitt. That conference is not the type to settle for #2 in a state without already having #1. So Big East football can form as it did in our timeline, meaning Miami is off the table for the SEC.

This may not be the case with Pitt, but some #2's in a given state are still enormously valuable. Texas A&M is the prime example. Florida State is another.

The B10's interest in Pitt after PSU going to the ACC would have been two-fold:

1. The State of Pa
2. Pressure on Notre Dame - a longtime Pitt rival



If we had taken Miami only....the addition of Pitt and Notre Dame would have followed to get the ACC to 12, where we should have stopped.

Except the ACC added Miami and later Pitt, and Notre Dame still didn't join in full.
09-16-2020 07:40 AM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #46
RE: What if: ACC thinks ahead of B1G, invites Penn State in late 80's as well as FSU
(09-15-2020 04:25 PM)Statefan Wrote:  
(09-13-2020 07:52 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(09-12-2020 06:17 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(09-12-2020 05:55 PM)Statefan Wrote:  I understand, but a 12th would have been needed for a conference championship game. Without ND in that mix, they can be at best 13th but I just can't imagine Miami still being available because the SEC is going to take them over SC. The SEC main goal is the State of Texas. They will always take Arkansas to make a Texas school feel more at home. If the ACC picked up PSU and FSU, Miami just makes better sense to go to 12 over SC or VT. The SEC was not as attractive then as it is now, but with an offer, Miami would go and would likely stay. JMHO

If PSU goes to the ACC, there's nothing to say that the Big Ten would take Pitt. That conference is not the type to settle for #2 in a state without already having #1. So Big East football can form as it did in our timeline, meaning Miami is off the table for the SEC.

This may not be the case with Pitt, but some #2's in a given state are still enormously valuable. Texas A&M is the prime example. Florida State is another.

The B10's interest in Pitt after PSU going to the ACC would have been two-fold:

1. The State of Pa
2. Pressure on Notre Dame - a longtime Pitt rival


I think that people greatly overstate the importance of Pitt being in any particular conference to ND's plans.

"Pressure" on ND back then because Pitt or BC joined the ACC. None.
(This post was last modified: 09-16-2020 07:57 AM by TerryD.)
09-16-2020 07:56 AM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #47
RE: What if: ACC thinks ahead of B1G, invites Penn State in late 80's as well as FSU
(09-16-2020 07:56 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(09-15-2020 04:25 PM)Statefan Wrote:  
(09-13-2020 07:52 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(09-12-2020 06:17 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(09-12-2020 05:55 PM)Statefan Wrote:  I understand, but a 12th would have been needed for a conference championship game. Without ND in that mix, they can be at best 13th but I just can't imagine Miami still being available because the SEC is going to take them over SC. The SEC main goal is the State of Texas. They will always take Arkansas to make a Texas school feel more at home. If the ACC picked up PSU and FSU, Miami just makes better sense to go to 12 over SC or VT. The SEC was not as attractive then as it is now, but with an offer, Miami would go and would likely stay. JMHO

If PSU goes to the ACC, there's nothing to say that the Big Ten would take Pitt. That conference is not the type to settle for #2 in a state without already having #1. So Big East football can form as it did in our timeline, meaning Miami is off the table for the SEC.

This may not be the case with Pitt, but some #2's in a given state are still enormously valuable. Texas A&M is the prime example. Florida State is another.

The B10's interest in Pitt after PSU going to the ACC would have been two-fold:

1. The State of Pa
2. Pressure on Notre Dame - a longtime Pitt rival


I think that people greatly overstate the importance of Pitt being in any particular conference to ND's plans.

"Pressure" on ND back then because Pitt or BC joined the ACC. None.

Right. ND-Pitt was a regular game out of necessity. Pitt, as an independent had availability and flexibility in their schedule to play ND late in the season. For ND, Pitt was an opponent they could drive to and due to the city’s large Catholic population, would have a less hostile crowd on the road.

About the only way that ND was going to join a conference as a full member in the 90s was if the ACC and Big Ten both gobbled up all the major Eastern independents and announced scheduling models that would have made it tough for ND to maintain an Indy existence.
09-16-2020 09:37 AM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #48
RE: What if: ACC thinks ahead of B1G, invites Penn State in late 80's as well as FSU
The one time I see ND potentially backed into a corner and forced to join a conference is in 2003, right after VT and Miami were announced as the 10th and 11th ACC members.

Everyone knew the ACC was adding a 12th, it was just about lining up the votes.

If the Big Ten had stepped in and added Pitt and Syracuse at the time ND would have been faced with 3 options:

Become the Big Ten’s #14
Become the ACC’s #12
Reject both and stay in the Big East, knowing that BC would likely be ACC bound, Rutgers would likely be Big Ten bound, and their only remaining football programs were WVU and the transitioning UConn team and of course the 5 NE Catholic schools.
09-16-2020 11:20 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #49
RE: What if: ACC thinks ahead of B1G, invites Penn State in late 80's as well as FSU
Seems like ND knew the landscape enough to know Pitt and Cuse didn’t have Big Ten support then or later when Nebraska got the spot.

ND played their cards right. Even when faculty wanted the CIC affiliation, that effort was put to rest.

Maybe what should have happened was the Big East getting tough on ND to schedule BE football programs to an extent like the ACC forces them to do. Again, ND had its own arrangement and seemed to let Big East malfeasance and divisiveness run its course and keep ND from those crosshairs.
09-16-2020 12:51 PM
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