(09-11-2020 12:29 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Hypothetically speaking, if Florida St and Penn St are ACC members 9 and 10, who are members 11 and 12?

I’m guessing your list of candidates are:

BC
Cuse
Pitt
Miami
VT
WVU
SC

South Carolina presumably went to the SEC as in our timeline, so they're off the table. ACC members 11 and 12 are most likely Miami and VT. If there are no Virginia political shenanigans, then perhaps in addition to Miami it's either Syracuse or BC. Of the two, more probable is Syracuse due to their longer history with Penn State. Pitt has an outside chance despite the bad blood with Penn State, especially if politicians get involved in PA. This of course assumes that the Big Ten hasn't already taken in Syracuse and Pitt. WVU is the last of the available options you listed that the ACC would entertain, though WVU's chances might improve a bit if PSU vouches for them. Even Rutgers would be ahead of WVU, I'd think.

Here are two possible divisional alignments:

Atlantic/Coastal (almost identical to the real 2005 ACC alignment)
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Florida State/Miami-FL
Maryland/Virginia
NC State/North Carolina
Penn State/Virginia Tech (or Syracuse)
Wake Forest/Duke

Atlantic/Coastal
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Florida State/Miami-FL
Maryland/Penn State
NC State/Wake Forest
North Carolina/Duke
Virginia/Virginia Tech (or Syracuse)

(09-11-2020 12:38 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 12:04 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  I'm surprised Bryce Jordan didn't reach out to the ACC. He had a PhD from North Carolina and taught at Maryland for nearly a decade.

IIRC, the ACC stuff came up and died down before the Big Ten stuff really ramped up. And it helped with Penn State that there was a Penn State guy at Illinois who was the one helping to bring PSU to the conference.

I get the impression Jordan was quite active in getting the school settled into a conference. It just happened that the Big Ten was the most receptive at that moment.

I was under the impression that Gene Corrigan, with ND background, was brought in during this era to upgrade ACC football. Given Corrigan's Baltimore background, I'm surprised he didn't make visiting State College his top priority.

Although Maryland, among others, was vehemently opposed to expansion, I bet if the final choice was Florida State vs. Penn State, the latter wouldn't gotten the invitation.

With Penn State on board, it wouldn't have surprised me if the destruction of Big East football would've occurred much sooner.

(09-11-2020 12:41 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 12:29 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Hypothetically speaking, if Florida St and Penn St are ACC members 9 and 10, who are members 11 and 12?

I’m guessing your list of candidates are:

BC
Cuse
Pitt
Miami
VT
WVU
SC

South Carolina presumably went to the SEC as in our timeline, so they're off the table. ACC members 11 and 12 are most likely Miami and VT. If there are no Virginia political shenanigans, then perhaps in addition to Miami it's either Syracuse or BC. Of the two, more probable is Syracuse due to their longer history with Penn State. Pitt has an outside chance despite the bad blood with Penn State, especially if politicians get involved in PA. This of course assumes that the Big Ten hasn't already taken in Syracuse and Pitt. WVU is the last of the available options you listed that the ACC would entertain, though WVU's chances might improve a bit if PSU vouches for them. Even Rutgers would be ahead of WVU, I'd think.

Here are two possible divisional alignments:

Atlantic/Coastal (almost identical to the real 2005 ACC alignment)
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Florida State/Miami-FL
Maryland/Virginia
NC State/North Carolina
Penn State/Virginia Tech (or Syracuse)
Wake Forest/Duke

Atlantic/Coastal
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Florida State/Miami-FL
Maryland/Penn State
NC State/Wake Forest
North Carolina/Duke
Virginia/Virginia Tech (or Syracuse)

When the ACC takes PSU and especially if this was done together with FSU before the B10 acted, the Big 10 takes Pitt almost immediately.

With Pitt and Penn State out of any eastern league, Miami will be casting about when the SEC is looking to go to 12. I don't see the SEC taking SC over Miami even though they are not a complete cultural fit. Miami and Arkansas will go off the board to the SEC.

The ACC candidates will be Syracuse, ND, and BC and UVa is stilled subject to blackmail. Clemson and NC State would already be in support of SC. While ND is nice, they are not as needed if the ACC has PSU and the ACC would want to keep PSU happy. That might mean Syracuse, but if they are just as happy with VT, then you get VT and SC as 11 and 12.

It would have aligned as so:

North - PSU/MD/VT/UVa/UNC/Duke
South - FSU/GT/CU/SC/NCSU/WF

Where this goes for 13 and 14 might be BC and Syracuse, but it could also be ND playing a swing schedule between the north and south each year. If that 13th is ND, the ACC stops.

The B10 has to look at Nebraska, Mizzou, Syracuse, BC, and Rutgers to go to 12, then 14. Their smart play is to go from 11 to 14 with Nebraska, Mizzou, and Syracuse. The SEC's smart play is to go for TAMU and to attempt to bring Texas, Kansas, and OU at the same time.

SEC West - Kansas/OU/Texas/TAMU/LSU/Arkansas/Ole Miss/MSU
SEC East - Miami/Florida/UGA/Aub/Bama/UT/KY/Vandy

B10 West - Mizzou/Neb/Iowa/Minn/Wisky/Ill/NW
B10 East - Michigan/MSU/Purdue/Ind/OSU/Pitt/Syracuse

Looking around - BC/Rutgers/West Va/Louisville/ISU/KSU/OSU/Baylor/TT and they could go to 16 with SMU/Houston/Cincy/UConn/USF/UCF

B16 East = BC/UConn/Rutgers/WVa/UCF/USF/Cincy/Louis
B16 West - Houston/SMU/TT/TCU/Baylor/OSU/KSU/ISU

Really on the outside looking in - Memphis/ECU/Tulane/Tulsa

So, if a Penn St move to the ACC requires an additional northeastern school or two and the Big Ten reaction is to also go for a Northeastern school or two, it’s very possible that Penn St, Pitt, Syracuse, and BC all end up in either the ACC or Big Ten. (We’re going to assume FSU also goes to the ACC and SC goes to the SEC).

Perhaps we get a situation where Miami, like ND, holds out as one of the last few great independents. They’d have a special deal in the Bowl Coalition/Alliance with the Orange Bowl.

VT and WVU might have found themselves in C-USA. Rutgers and Temple and big question marks—C-USA, independence, or even maybe de-emphasis and FCS football.

i dont remember the exact sequence, before or after B10/PSU announcement, but the Big East did float the idea of football only in the ACC for BC, Syracuse and Pitt. Some of you im sure know more details like if other schools (miami were mentioned) and if it would be a separate FB only league or ACC sponsored FB.
did this sow the seed for the raid years later?

(09-11-2020 12:29 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Hypothetically speaking, if Florida St and Penn St are ACC members 9 and 10, who are members 11 and 12?

I’m guessing your list of candidates are:

BC
Cuse
Pitt
Miami
VT
WVU
SC

Since we are already in the Twilight Zone (and I’m watching ND v Duke in an ACC regular season game), my expansions after PSU & FSU...

Norte Dame and Miami get the nod to start a Conference Championship Game.
Division alignment
North: ND, PSU, MD, UVA, UNC and Duke
South: Miami, FSU, GT, Clemson, NCState and WFU

For the 2010 expansion...top candidates are Syracuse, Pittsburgh and BC. New divisions:
North- ND, Pitt, Syracuse, PSU, MD, UVA and WFU
South- Miami, FSU, GT, Clemson, NC State, UNC and Duke
We would keep the South’s Oldest Rivalry as a permanent cross-over.

(09-12-2020 03:04 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 12:29 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Hypothetically speaking, if Florida St and Penn St are ACC members 9 and 10, who are members 11 and 12?

I’m guessing your list of candidates are:

BC
Cuse
Pitt
Miami
VT
WVU
SC

Since we are already in the Twilight Zone (and I’m watching ND v Duke in an ACC regular season game), my expansions after PSU & FSU...

Norte Dame and Miami get the nod to start a Conference Championship Game.
Division alignment
North: ND, PSU, MD, UVA, UNC and Duke
South: Miami, FSU, GT, Clemson, NCState and WFU

For the 2010 expansion...top candidates are Syracuse, Pittsburgh and BC. New divisions:
North- ND, Pitt, Syracuse, PSU, MD, UVA and WFU
South- Miami, FSU, GT, Clemson, NC State, UNC and Duke
We would keep the South’s Oldest Rivalry as a permanent cross-over.

If it's ND and Miami as 11 and 12, then I'm thinking they'd align more like this:

Atlantic/Coastal
Clemson/Georgia Tech
Florida State/Miami-FL
Maryland/Notre Dame
NC State/Wake Forest
North Carolina/Duke
Virginia/Virginia Tech

(09-12-2020 09:18 AM)gosports1 Wrote:  i dont remember the exact sequence, before or after B10/PSU announcement, but the Big East did float the idea of football only in the ACC for BC, Syracuse and Pitt. Some of you im sure know more details like if other schools (miami were mentioned) and if it would be a separate FB only league or ACC sponsored FB.
did this sow the seed for the raid years later?

That was an publicized idea of the mid 1990's, after PSU to the B10 and FSU to the ACC. It was made public that way in an attempt to have some leverage over Carolina, Maryland, and Duke. It didn't work. Les Robinson, Paul Dee, and Gene Corrigan talked a lot with Miami, BC, and Syracuse. Miami and BC had issues with basketball only schools and could never see that working out.

Nerd, ND was never going to be anyone's 11th, let alone the ACC's in the 90's. It took the Irish a full decade to realize that they screwed up pushing out Holtz.


PSU and FSU to the ACC at the same time in the late 80's changes the entire equation.

That changes what the B10 and SEC do. That changes what the Big East would have done.

That move kills Big East football before it's born.

(09-12-2020 05:39 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Nerd, ND was never going to be anyone's 11th, let alone the ACC's in the 90's. It took the Irish a full decade to realize that they screwed up pushing out Holtz.


PSU and FSU to the ACC at the same time in the late 80's changes the entire equation.

That changes what the B10 and SEC do. That changes what the Big East would have done.

That move kills Big East football before it's born.

I know ND wouldn't have joined in full -- I was running with the premise.

I understand, but a 12th would have been needed for a conference championship game. Without ND in that mix, they can be at best 13th but I just can't imagine Miami still being available because the SEC is going to take them over SC. The SEC main goal is the State of Texas. They will always take Arkansas to make a Texas school feel more at home. If the ACC picked up PSU and FSU, Miami just makes better sense to go to 12 over SC or VT. The SEC was not as attractive then as it is now, but with an offer, Miami would go and would likely stay. JMHO

(09-12-2020 05:55 PM)Statefan Wrote:  I understand, but a 12th would have been needed for a conference championship game. Without ND in that mix, they can be at best 13th but I just can't imagine Miami still being available because the SEC is going to take them over SC. The SEC main goal is the State of Texas. They will always take Arkansas to make a Texas school feel more at home. If the ACC picked up PSU and FSU, Miami just makes better sense to go to 12 over SC or VT. The SEC was not as attractive then as it is now, but with an offer, Miami would go and would likely stay. JMHO

If PSU goes to the ACC, there's nothing to say that the Big Ten would take Pitt. That conference is not the type to settle for #2 in a state without already having #1. So Big East football can form as it did in our timeline, meaning Miami is off the table for the SEC.

So I saw this article today. It's long but good and is mostly about how close the vote was for the Big Ten to add PSU (TLDR : Northwestern is why PSU is in the Big Ten and not the ACC).

https://twitter.com/djoneshoop/status/13...25474?s=19

But here is the relevant part.

"When I wrote my original story on this topic in 1994, Tarman a few days later pulled me aside at a Penn State basketball game and told me then-ACC commissioner Gene Corrigan had called him the day after the original invitation announcement in 1989 and exclaimed: “Why didn’t you tell us you wanted in a conference? We’d have had you in in a heartbeat!” I called Corrigan in 2013 for a story and he confirmed that’s exactly what happened, that he’d have “made it his business” to persuade the ACC presidents to invite Penn State. Ikenberry is convinced they would be in the ACC now:

“I believe that would have happened. Penn State would not have been left out in the cold very long. They would’ve gone someplace, yes. Very likely the ACC.”

So... little decisions can have some big impacts down the road.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

(09-11-2020 12:29 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Hypothetically speaking, if Florida St and Penn St are ACC members 9 and 10, who are members 11 and 12?

I’m guessing your list of candidates are:

BC
Cuse
Pitt
Miami
VT
WVU
SC

Miami and Pitt.

Syracuse proved to difficult to work with.
BC...meh
VT athletic department was not developed to ACC levels
West Virginia
South Carolina- a strong possibility, but not the choice of Penn State

and...ah...errr... What if wishes were fishes and there was no room for water in the sea.

(09-13-2020 07:32 AM)TerpsNPhoenix Wrote:  So I saw this article today. It's long but good and is mostly about how close the vote was for the Big Ten to add PSU (TLDR : Northwestern is why PSU is in the Big Ten and not the ACC).

https://twitter.com/djoneshoop/status/13...25474?s=19

But here is the relevant part.

"When I wrote my original story on this topic in 1994, Tarman a few days later pulled me aside at a Penn State basketball game and told me then-ACC commissioner Gene Corrigan had called him the day after the original invitation announcement in 1989 and exclaimed: “Why didn’t you tell us you wanted in a conference? We’d have had you in in a heartbeat!” I called Corrigan in 2013 for a story and he confirmed that’s exactly what happened, that he’d have “made it his business” to persuade the ACC presidents to invite Penn State. Ikenberry is convinced they would be in the ACC now:

“I believe that would have happened. Penn State would not have been left out in the cold very long. They would’ve gone someplace, yes. Very likely the ACC.”

So... little decisions can have some big impacts down the road.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

Corrigan became the ACC Commissioner in 1987, knowing the conference was weak in football. But it appears the country club mentality by which the ACC operated refrained Corrigan from reaching out to Penn State. There was no sense of urgency until Penn State was lost.

(09-13-2020 11:51 AM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(09-13-2020 07:32 AM)TerpsNPhoenix Wrote:  So I saw this article today. It's long but good and is mostly about how close the vote was for the Big Ten to add PSU (TLDR : Northwestern is why PSU is in the Big Ten and not the ACC).

https://twitter.com/djoneshoop/status/13...25474?s=19

But here is the relevant part.

"When I wrote my original story on this topic in 1994, Tarman a few days later pulled me aside at a Penn State basketball game and told me then-ACC commissioner Gene Corrigan had called him the day after the original invitation announcement in 1989 and exclaimed: “Why didn’t you tell us you wanted in a conference? We’d have had you in in a heartbeat!” I called Corrigan in 2013 for a story and he confirmed that’s exactly what happened, that he’d have “made it his business” to persuade the ACC presidents to invite Penn State. Ikenberry is convinced they would be in the ACC now:

“I believe that would have happened. Penn State would not have been left out in the cold very long. They would’ve gone someplace, yes. Very likely the ACC.”

So... little decisions can have some big impacts down the road.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

Corrigan became the ACC Commissioner in 1987, knowing the conference was weak in football. But it appears the country club mentality by which the ACC operated refrained Corrigan from reaching out to Penn State. There was no sense of urgency until Penn State was lost.

Agree that the ACC was way too conservative and had no sense of urgency.

I also wonder whether PSU would have had reciprocal interest. UVA’s coach, George Welsh, had strong ties to PSU. UMCP and PSU had competed for years. Clemson and GT had good football programs, but their competition were southern schools.

(09-13-2020 12:33 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(09-13-2020 11:51 AM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(09-13-2020 07:32 AM)TerpsNPhoenix Wrote:  So I saw this article today. It's long but good and is mostly about how close the vote was for the Big Ten to add PSU (TLDR : Northwestern is why PSU is in the Big Ten and not the ACC).

https://twitter.com/djoneshoop/status/13...25474?s=19

But here is the relevant part.

"When I wrote my original story on this topic in 1994, Tarman a few days later pulled me aside at a Penn State basketball game and told me then-ACC commissioner Gene Corrigan had called him the day after the original invitation announcement in 1989 and exclaimed: “Why didn’t you tell us you wanted in a conference? We’d have had you in in a heartbeat!” I called Corrigan in 2013 for a story and he confirmed that’s exactly what happened, that he’d have “made it his business” to persuade the ACC presidents to invite Penn State. Ikenberry is convinced they would be in the ACC now:

“I believe that would have happened. Penn State would not have been left out in the cold very long. They would’ve gone someplace, yes. Very likely the ACC.”

So... little decisions can have some big impacts down the road.

Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk

Corrigan became the ACC Commissioner in 1987, knowing the conference was weak in football. But it appears the country club mentality by which the ACC operated refrained Corrigan from reaching out to Penn State. There was no sense of urgency until Penn State was lost.

Agree that the ACC was way too conservative and had no sense of urgency.

I also wonder whether PSU would have had reciprocal interest. UVA’s coach, George Welsh, had strong ties to PSU. UMCP and PSU had competed for years. Clemson and GT had good football programs, but their competition were southern schools.

Penn State's President, Bryce Jordan, earned his PhD at North Carolina and spent his first decade in academia at College Park. Penn State played against Maryland and State pretty regularly. I would say if the choice were between PSU and FSU, PSU would've gotten the invitation. Perhaps FSU could've weaseled its way in as the 10th school.

I’m going to toss out a scenario here:

We all know about Gene Corrigan’s straw poll of the ACC presidents on expansion and the names that came up where Florida St and Syracuse. Let’s say that still happens but the phone call with Syracuse goes a little different. The Syracuse president says it’s going to a tough sell to leave their northeastern roots but if they got a football relationship going, with some time, the alums and donors would come around to the idea of full membership. They negotiate a plan for Syracuse, Pitt, and BC to come in as football only members in 1991 along with full member Florida St. As part of the deal the ACC and Big East also start an epic basketball challenge series.

(Penn St still goes to the Big Ten, SC and Arkansas to the SEC)

In 1994 we still see the Big 12 get organized with a 1996 start date. We still get a WAC-16. Things are a little different with C-USA. VT and WVU are in there too with a line up of: WVU, VT, Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis, USM, Tulane, and Houston in football and non-fb DePaul, Marquette, St Louis, Charlotte, UAB, and USF. Army and ECU come in later as fb only. UAB and USF eventually bring FBS programs online. 2001 sees TCU and ECU Enter the C-USA fold as full members.

2004 becomes a pivotal year. There’s mutual interest between Miami and the ACC as scheduling as an Indy has become harder. Expansion’s a no go without VT as UVA’s vote is critical and the state politicians are involved. Realizing they could be cast off and replaced by new full members, the 3 fb affiliates from the BE make it know they would be willing to become full members. All 5 get voted in as full members to make a 14 team ACC. Thoughts about ND coming in are discussed and they decide if the Irish are ever interested they can look at 16.

The Big East adds ND, Marquette, DePaul, and St Louis for 10 members to reload.

As the dust settles:

Big Ten, Pac 10, SEC, Big 12: same as our Timeline

ACC Coastal: BC, Cuse, Pitt, Maryland, VT, GT, Miami
ACC Atlantic: UVA, UNC, Duke, WF, NC St, Clemson, FSU

C-USA East: WVU, Cincinnati, Louisville, ECU, USF, UCF
C-USA West: Memphis, UAB, USM, Tulane, Houston, TCU

MAC East: Buffalo, Akron, Kent St, Ohio, Marshall, Miami
MAC West: BG, Toledo, EMU, CMU, WMU, Ball St, NIU

MWC: UNM, AFA, Colo St, Wyoming, Utah, BYU, SDSU, UNLV

WAC East: LA Tech, Tulsa, SMU, Rice, UTEP
WAC West: Nevada, Boise St, Fresno St, San Jose St, Hawaii

Sunbelt: FIU, FAU, MTSU, Troy, Ark St, ULL, ULM, UNT, NMSU
non-fb: WKU, USA, UALR, Denver
fb only: Utah St, Idaho

Indy: Army, Navy, ND, Temple, Rutgers

2010 becomes another big year for the shuffling to pick up again. It could be small, with just Colorado, Utah, BYU, Nebraska, TAMU, Missouri, WVU, and TCU moving around among the big conferences but if the 14 team ACC was working well it might have emboldened the Big Ten, SEC, and PAC 10 to more aggressively Balkanize the Big 12.

(09-12-2020 06:17 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(09-12-2020 05:55 PM)Statefan Wrote:  I understand, but a 12th would have been needed for a conference championship game. Without ND in that mix, they can be at best 13th but I just can't imagine Miami still being available because the SEC is going to take them over SC. The SEC main goal is the State of Texas. They will always take Arkansas to make a Texas school feel more at home. If the ACC picked up PSU and FSU, Miami just makes better sense to go to 12 over SC or VT. The SEC was not as attractive then as it is now, but with an offer, Miami would go and would likely stay. JMHO

If PSU goes to the ACC, there's nothing to say that the Big Ten would take Pitt. That conference is not the type to settle for #2 in a state without already having #1. So Big East football can form as it did in our timeline, meaning Miami is off the table for the SEC.

This may not be the case with Pitt, but some #2's in a given state are still enormously valuable. Texas A&M is the prime example. Florida State is another.