(09-05-2020 08:57 AM)DSL Wrote:  ...
I didn't know there are more than fifty James Bond novels.
...

But only the first 13 or so are worth reading.

The memorial in the Daily Press today:

https://www.dailypress.com/opinion/vp-ed...story.html

(09-06-2020 02:19 PM)DSL Wrote:  The memorial in the Daily Press today:

https://www.dailypress.com/opinion/vp-ed...story.html

This is a fairly absurd piece. I have no objections to the telling of William and Mary's post Civil War history, but, of the two names he cites for recognition, Ewell has had a building named after him for generations. The entire history department, nationally-renowned and one of the most prominent areas of study, is named after Tyler, and there is a bust of him in a memorial garden in a very prominent place on campus.

To respond to the sole (generations overdue) memorial at WM for people enslaved there by arguing that what WM should be ACTUALLY doing is further recognizing some completely unrelated individuals is obtuse, at best. This memorial should be not be diminished by that comparison.

(09-06-2020 02:40 PM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  

(09-06-2020 02:19 PM)DSL Wrote:  The memorial in the Daily Press today:

https://www.dailypress.com/opinion/vp-ed...story.html

This is a fairly absurd piece. I have no objections to the telling of William and Mary's post Civil War history, but, of the two names he cites for recognition, Ewell has had a building named after him for generations. The entire history department, nationally-renowned and one of the most prominent areas of study, is named after Tyler, and there is a bust of him in a memorial garden in a very prominent place on campus.

To respond to the sole (generations overdue) memorial at WM for people enslaved there by arguing that what WM should be ACTUALLY doing is further recognizing some completely unrelated individuals is obtuse, at best. This memorial should be not be diminished by that comparison.

Ewell was president of W&M 1854-1888

Benjamin Ewell is best remembered for his long tenure as the sixteenth president of the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg before, during and after the American Civil War. Benjamin Ewell's tireless efforts to restore the historic school and its programs during and after Reconstruction became legendary in Williamsburg and at the college and were ultimately successful, with funding from both the U.S. Congress and the Commonwealth of Virginia.

I’m in favor of a plaque, a memorial, and a complete written history on African Americans at William &Mary.

I would hope that while being bold enough to be noticed, they fit in with what is already here, that in many instances they had a hand in building.

The cost per se, isn’t the point, it is the recognition. Cost is important only as it impacts other things.

A half million dollars for the monument and remembrance, along with a $1.5 endowment for the benefit of African Americans would seem to be more beneficial than a $2MM memorial, imho.


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(09-06-2020 05:59 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  I’m in favor of a plaque, a memorial, and a complete written history on African Americans at William &Mary.

I would hope that while being bold enough to be noticed, they fit in with what is already here, that in many instances they had a hand in building.

The cost per se, isn’t the point, it is the recognition. Cost is important only as it impacts other things.

A half million dollars for the monument and remembrance, along with a $1.5 endowment for the benefit of African Americans would seem to be more beneficial than a $2MM memorial, imho.

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Couldn't we have renamed Morton Hall to honor African slaves and used the memorial money for scholarships?

(09-07-2020 10:16 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(09-06-2020 05:59 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  I’m in favor of a plaque, a memorial, and a complete written history on African Americans at William &Mary.

I would hope that while being bold enough to be noticed, they fit in with what is already here, that in many instances they had a hand in building.

The cost per se, isn’t the point, it is the recognition. Cost is important only as it impacts other things.

A half million dollars for the monument and remembrance, along with a $1.5 endowment for the benefit of African Americans would seem to be more beneficial than a $2MM memorial, imho.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Couldn't we have renamed Morton Hall to honor African slaves and used the memorial money for scholarships?

That would be a pretty disrespectful move. The appropriate renaming of that building would be to call it "Spider Hall". Then hit it with a wrecking ball.

(09-07-2020 10:37 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(09-07-2020 10:16 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(09-06-2020 05:59 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  I’m in favor of a plaque, a memorial, and a complete written history on African Americans at William &Mary.

I would hope that while being bold enough to be noticed, they fit in with what is already here, that in many instances they had a hand in building.

The cost per se, isn’t the point, it is the recognition. Cost is important only as it impacts other things.

A half million dollars for the monument and remembrance, along with a $1.5 endowment for the benefit of African Americans would seem to be more beneficial than a $2MM memorial, imho.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Couldn't we have renamed Morton Hall to honor African slaves and used the memorial money for scholarships?

That would be a pretty disrespectful move. The appropriate renaming of that building would be to call it "Spider Hall". Then hit it with a wrecking ball.

Morton Hall already houses the Africana Studies department. The administration could expand on that with plaques, exhibits, presentations, etc.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions on what they like or what is fitting for this monument to the enslaved.
What I don't get is now criticising the project in the 11th hour when very little has changed from intent to design to location in the last few years. Now I get financial concerns in the wake of Covid and concerns over athletics finances that lead to cutting sports, but these have nothing to do with the memorial. Money from this project was never going to be used for anything else. Those matching funds were already long ago paid. This wasn't some slapped together memorial with little thought. It is the culmination of work that began in 2007 with a student resolution to establish a slave memorial. In 2014, a class run by the art dept and lemon project recommended a competition for the memorial. In 2018, a 9 member selection committee comprised of historians, and leaders in the arts reviewed 80 different submissions. The winning entry was picked last year. A committee was put together comprised of relavent faculty, staff, students, and the BoV. It established fund raising through private gifts and matching funds. From the beginning it was to be located "within or directly engaging with the William & Mary historic campus". It seems that they are doing exactly what the original planning called for. The thought of all of that time, and all of those varied people's work towards this goal should be dismissed a year from completion in favor of a plaque or a building name change seems unrealistic and just plain wrong.

(09-07-2020 11:32 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(09-07-2020 10:37 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(09-07-2020 10:16 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(09-06-2020 05:59 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  I’m in favor of a plaque, a memorial, and a complete written history on African Americans at William &Mary.

I would hope that while being bold enough to be noticed, they fit in with what is already here, that in many instances they had a hand in building.

The cost per se, isn’t the point, it is the recognition. Cost is important only as it impacts other things.

A half million dollars for the monument and remembrance, along with a $1.5 endowment for the benefit of African Americans would seem to be more beneficial than a $2MM memorial, imho.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Couldn't we have renamed Morton Hall to honor African slaves and used the memorial money for scholarships?

That would be a pretty disrespectful move. The appropriate renaming of that building would be to call it "Spider Hall". Then hit it with a wrecking ball.

Morton Hall already houses the Africana Studies department. The administration could expand on that with plaques, exhibits, presentations, etc.

I just meant that Morton is one of the worst buildings on campus. Didn't have anything to do with anything else.

(09-07-2020 11:33 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  Everyone is entitled to their opinions on what they like or what is fitting for this monument to the enslaved.
What I don't get is now criticising the project in the 11th hour when very little has changed from intent to design to location in the last few years. Now I get financial concerns in the wake of Covid and concerns over athletics finances that lead to cutting sports, but these have nothing to do with the memorial. Money from this project was never going to be used for anything else. Those matching funds were already long ago paid. This wasn't some slapped together memorial with little thought. It is the culmination of work that began in 2007 with a student resolution to establish a slave memorial. In 2014, a class run by the art dept and lemon project recommended a competition for the memorial. In 2018, a 9 member selection committee comprised of historians, and leaders in the arts reviewed 80 different submissions. The winning entry was picked last year. A committee was put together comprised of relavent faculty, staff, students, and the BoV. It established fund raising through private gifts and matching funds. From the beginning it was to be located "within or directly engaging with the William & Mary historic campus". It seems that they are doing exactly what the original planning called for. The thought of all of that time, and all of those varied people's work towards this goal should be dismissed a year from completion in favor of a plaque or a building name change seems unrealistic and just plain wrong.

We're just chatting here. I mean no disrespect to anyone at W&M involved in the memorial. I'm just a casual observer of W&M events. I never heard of the project until W&M posted the final design online in the last week or so. I had no input into the project. I don't expect anyone to take my idea seriously.

With the technology that exists today, it seems the college could give us several digital images of exactly how this will be sited and how it will look with the adjacent structures from all four sides.
I'm still concerned they are plopping a contemporary looking, big rectangular box
in an area of much more attractive buildings.
Will it be "eye catching" in a good way or because it's seems so unattractive.

But I also feel the same way about the "skyscrapers" being constructed at Midtown.

(09-07-2020 12:07 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(09-07-2020 11:33 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  Everyone is entitled to their opinions on what they like or what is fitting for this monument to the enslaved.
What I don't get is now criticising the project in the 11th hour when very little has changed from intent to design to location in the last few years. Now I get financial concerns in the wake of Covid and concerns over athletics finances that lead to cutting sports, but these have nothing to do with the memorial. Money from this project was never going to be used for anything else. Those matching funds were already long ago paid. This wasn't some slapped together memorial with little thought. It is the culmination of work that began in 2007 with a student resolution to establish a slave memorial. In 2014, a class run by the art dept and lemon project recommended a competition for the memorial. In 2018, a 9 member selection committee comprised of historians, and leaders in the arts reviewed 80 different submissions. The winning entry was picked last year. A committee was put together comprised of relavent faculty, staff, students, and the BoV. It established fund raising through private gifts and matching funds. From the beginning it was to be located "within or directly engaging with the William & Mary historic campus". It seems that they are doing exactly what the original planning called for. The thought of all of that time, and all of those varied people's work towards this goal should be dismissed a year from completion in favor of a plaque or a building name change seems unrealistic and just plain wrong.

We're just chatting here. I mean no disrespect to anyone at W&M involved in the memorial. I'm just a casual observer of W&M events. I never heard of the project until W&M posted the final design online in the last week or so. I had no input into the project. I don't expect anyone to take my idea seriously.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the proposed "Memorial" and the entire project is a BIG mistake and we are being sold on the idea by W&M Faculty and Adminisrators with lies and half truths. We are told that the concept grew from a class at W&M taught by the Director of the "Lemon Project" apparently the class was all about Lemon and the Lemon Project and then, miracula dictu, they all came up with this wonderful idea ... which the virtue signaling W&M Faculty and Admin adopted whole heartedly. And the Band Played ON.

I suggest the students in this class were predisposed to considering a project such as this and were brainwashed into "approving" the project. The Daily Press Op-ED recently published made some salient points. When we were students we were told that W&M was the "oldest College" in actual operation and that the Wren Building had conducted continuously since 1693. These were outright lies, the College was effectively destroyed during the Civil War and did not begin to function again until the end of the century. The CIVIL WAR was fought to end slavery, W&M was destroyed by the Civil War - that should be our memorial.

This whole project [including the so-called Lemon Project] should be subjected to a vote for approval of ALL Current students, and ALL alums having donated money over the past 10 years, and W&M Faculty and Administrators who donate money to the College.

There is a rush to judgement about this whole project that smells highly - this is not a project that should be rushed and there is ample time for everybody to voice their opinions and have a vote.

62 Indian speaks wisdom!
Thanks for articulating this perspective.
You speak for many.

(09-07-2020 06:50 PM)DSL Wrote:  62 Indian speaks wisdom!
Thanks for articulating this perspective.
You speak for many.

Agreed. It's a shame that we small-donor alums had no voice in this project, but that's the way modern university finance works.

(09-07-2020 07:44 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(09-07-2020 06:50 PM)DSL Wrote:  62 Indian speaks wisdom!
Thanks for articulating this perspective.
You speak for many.

Agreed. It's a shame that we small-donor alums had no voice in this project, but that's the way modern university finance works.

Are you kidding? University finance has more transparency and accountability now than ever. Before the Internet, nobody would have known this project existed until they showed back up at the school or read about it in the alumni newsletter.

I am a small donor and I donated to this memorial, which I have been aware of for years, on One Tribe One Day. I guess my voice was taken into account.

If you are a small donor and you did not donate to the memorial, then your voice was also taken into account. You would rather your money be used for something else, and it will be.

Seems fair.

(09-07-2020 08:30 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  

(09-07-2020 07:44 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(09-07-2020 06:50 PM)DSL Wrote:  62 Indian speaks wisdom!
Thanks for articulating this perspective.
You speak for many.

Agreed. It's a shame that we small-donor alums had no voice in this project, but that's the way modern university finance works.

Are you kidding? University finance has more transparency and accountability now than ever. Before the Internet, nobody would have known this project existed until they showed back up at the school or read about it in the alumni newsletter.

In the early 1980's when I attended W&M, the State of Virginia contributed about 2/3 of W&M's operations. Everyday alums had a say in W&M finances through legislative elections. Now that figure is down to about 10%. W&M is dependent on big-money donors to pick up the slack. Those donors want specific projects completed. They don't often simply contribute to the general welfare. Hence the memorial.

(09-08-2020 07:27 AM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  In the early 1980's when I attended W&M, the State of Virginia contributed about 2/3 of W&M's operations. Everyday alums had a say in W&M finances through legislative elections. Now that figure is down to about 10%. W&M is dependent on big-money donors to pick up the slack. Those donors want specific projects completed. They don't often simply contribute to the general welfare. Hence the memorial.

Hence Zable Stadium. Hence Plumeri Park. Hence Kaplan Arena.

(09-07-2020 05:58 PM)62Indian Wrote:  

(09-07-2020 12:07 PM)TribeFan1983 Wrote:  

(09-07-2020 11:33 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  Everyone is entitled to their opinions on what they like or what is fitting for this monument to the enslaved.
What I don't get is now criticising the project in the 11th hour when very little has changed from intent to design to location in the last few years. Now I get financial concerns in the wake of Covid and concerns over athletics finances that lead to cutting sports, but these have nothing to do with the memorial. Money from this project was never going to be used for anything else. Those matching funds were already long ago paid. This wasn't some slapped together memorial with little thought. It is the culmination of work that began in 2007 with a student resolution to establish a slave memorial. In 2014, a class run by the art dept and lemon project recommended a competition for the memorial. In 2018, a 9 member selection committee comprised of historians, and leaders in the arts reviewed 80 different submissions. The winning entry was picked last year. A committee was put together comprised of relavent faculty, staff, students, and the BoV. It established fund raising through private gifts and matching funds. From the beginning it was to be located "within or directly engaging with the William & Mary historic campus". It seems that they are doing exactly what the original planning called for. The thought of all of that time, and all of those varied people's work towards this goal should be dismissed a year from completion in favor of a plaque or a building name change seems unrealistic and just plain wrong.

We're just chatting here. I mean no disrespect to anyone at W&M involved in the memorial. I'm just a casual observer of W&M events. I never heard of the project until W&M posted the final design online in the last week or so. I had no input into the project. I don't expect anyone to take my idea seriously.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the proposed "Memorial" and the entire project is a BIG mistake and we are being sold on the idea by W&M Faculty and Adminisrators with lies and half truths. We are told that the concept grew from a class at W&M taught by the Director of the "Lemon Project" apparently the class was all about Lemon and the Lemon Project and then, miracula dictu, they all came up with this wonderful idea ... which the virtue signaling W&M Faculty and Admin adopted whole heartedly. And the Band Played ON.

I suggest the students in this class were predisposed to considering a project such as this and were brainwashed into "approving" the project. The Daily Press Op-ED recently published made some salient points. When we were students we were told that W&M was the "oldest College" in actual operation and that the Wren Building had conducted continuously since 1693. These were outright lies, the College was effectively destroyed during the Civil War and did not begin to function again until the end of the century. The CIVIL WAR was fought to end slavery, W&M was destroyed by the Civil War - that should be our memorial.

This whole project [including the so-called Lemon Project] should be subjected to a vote for approval of ALL Current students, and ALL alums having donated money over the past 10 years, and W&M Faculty and Administrators who donate money to the College.

There is a rush to judgement about this whole project that smells highly - this is not a project that should be rushed and there is ample time for everybody to voice their opinions and have a vote.

On paper a vote for budget items sounds nice, but with how much money the school spends - and how many donors they get - I can't imagine voting on budget items would actually be practical or feasible. I will always support more financial transparency, that said, though I do think it's gotten better over time, and as a public school I think you can generally submit FOIA requests to learn more.

I don't recall the same calls for votes or mass approval when the school installed a Monroe statue a few years back...