The Elite 2: SEC, B1G.

The Power 3: ACC, Big 12, Pac-12.

The AAC: AAC

The G4: MWC, SBC, CUSA, MAC.

Those are your 4 tiers IMO.

(08-23-2020 02:59 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  The Elite 2: SEC, B1G.

The Power 3: ACC, Big 12, Pac-12.

The AAC: AAC

The G4: MWC, SBC, CUSA, MAC.

Those are your 4 tiers IMO.

I largely agree, except I would put the MWC in its own fifth tier below the AAC. The AAC has shown consistent dominance and depth relative to the other G5 groups. The MWC has also had success but it is a shadow of its heydays with Utah, BYU, and TCU. I wish that conference had continued with Boise on the roster, I think you would have had a legitimate P6 at that point.

In their current line-up, they have work to do and are clearly a step behind the AAC.

Three NY6 wins say P6 baby

(08-22-2020 05:00 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  How is the AAC a P6?

Wikipedia Wrote:The term "Power Five" is not defined by the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA), and the origin of the term is unknown.

So in essence, they are a P6 because the AAC say they are.

This what I used to tell MWC fans on their board over ten years ago when they claimed they were the 7th BCS AQ league: the cartel will move a couple of schools up but not an entire conference. Utah and BYU might go up, Wyoming and New Mexico will stay where they are (except for BYU, my prediction was spot on).

The same applies today to AAC fans and their claim they are the 6th power conference. I could see Cincinnati and Houston moving up, the rest have bigger obstacles to overcome such as having a directional name, not so great academics, market overlap and low fan support.

They are what the MWC was in the 00's: the tallest midget.

The P6 campaign parallels what’s going on on the field: the AAC is dominating G level competition and holding their own again P level competition and doing so without the benefit of the insane tv money that flows into the P5 coffers.

In terms of actual performance, the AAC is doing every bit as good as the PAC 12 and ACC schools not named Clemson.

If the P conferences are as elite as they claim to be they ought to be dispatching AAC teams left and right but they aren’t.

(08-24-2020 07:31 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  In terms of actual performance, the AAC is doing every bit as good as the PAC 12 and ACC schools not named Clemson.

If the P conferences are as elite as they claim to be they ought to be dispatching AAC teams left and right but they aren’t.

Well, if we go on one year's worth of performance, then yes, the AAC performed like a P6 last year (only), as it actually edged out the ACC in the Massey rankings. Though one could argue that there was really a P4 on the field last year, as the gap between the AAC and ACC and the other P conferences was large. The ACC really performed like a "tweener" conference last year.

As for the PAC, that is nonsense. The PAC is suffering in perception because it hasn't had a dominant, Clemson-like playoff team the last few years, but the overall conference is strong and totally "P". E.g., even last year, easily the AAC's best, the PAC outperformed it on the field very soundly.

Here are the final MC rankings from 2019:

SEC ... 42.91
B12 ... 46.16
B1G ... 48.67
PAC ... 49.30

AAC ... 60.28
ACC ... 60.40

MW .... 74.70

So you see that the PAC is clearly in the "P" group, whereas there is a big gap down to the AAC/ACC, which you can call "P" if you want. Since there is also a big gap to the next G5, the MW, the best thing to call the AAC (and ACC) was a performance tweener.

But the PAC was Power.

The PAC 12 was losing G5 games left and right last year.

Clearly, the AAC knows it is G5, because by definition the G5 are the 5 conferences that compete for that extra handout spot in the bowls that is given to us for knowing our role. And until we refuse the G5 spot in a bowl game, we are, in fact, G5.

The P6 campaign is pure marketing and a pledge that we are going to try to offer the same benefits the Autonomous 5 conferences are going to offer their athletes.

I think it's worked well for us.

(08-24-2020 09:44 AM)Chappy Wrote:  Clearly, the AAC knows it is G5, because by definition the G5 are the 5 conferences that compete for that extra handout spot in the bowls that is given to us for knowing our role. And until we refuse the G5 spot in a bowl game, we are, in fact, G5.

The P6 campaign is pure marketing and a pledge that we are going to try to offer the same benefits the Autonomous 5 conferences are going to offer their athletes.

I think it's worked well for us.

I agree with all of this. I would add that since day one, Aresco has also said that a goal of the P6 campaign is to help ensure that if there is a P5 split from the NCAA, that the AAC get taken along with the P5.

I admit I have laughed at this, because IMO once the P5 got Autonomy status, their motivation to split off went away. But given the shifting landscape caused by covid, who knows what ramifications might happen, so maybe he was/is on to something. Not sure "P6" will help with that, but still ....

In football, the AAC, in its very best year simultaneous with a P5's worst year, is by the slimmest of margins better than one of the P5. Prime example is 2019. On the average over, say, five years, the P5 leagues have a clear distance between themselves and the AAC.

In basketball, there actually is a Power 6, and that does not include the AAC. The Big East isn't just a top six. It is just about always top three. The AAC may occasionally outperform one of the basketball P6, but on the average, it is the seventh best basketball league.

That said, I recognize this is more about football. I will acknowledge that the P6 is a marketing campaign and that it is doing a pretty good job at it. Present day, though, the AAC is still part of the G5. Yes, it has significant distance in the Massey ratings and in revenue, etc., from fellow G5's, just as the SEC often does from other P5's, but it is nonetheless a G5 league for the reasons I listed in my OP. The AAC can go 25-0 against the other G5. It's still no more a P6 than North Dakota State is a G5 or P5 when it routinely beats FBS schools.

(08-24-2020 09:54 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 09:44 AM)Chappy Wrote:  Clearly, the AAC knows it is G5, because by definition the G5 are the 5 conferences that compete for that extra handout spot in the bowls that is given to us for knowing our role. And until we refuse the G5 spot in a bowl game, we are, in fact, G5.

The P6 campaign is pure marketing and a pledge that we are going to try to offer the same benefits the Autonomous 5 conferences are going to offer their athletes.

I think it's worked well for us.

I agree with all of this. I would add that since day one, Aresco has also said that a goal of the P6 campaign is to help ensure that if there is a P5 split from the NCAA, that the AAC get taken along with the P5.

I admit I have laughed at this, because IMO once the P5 got Autonomy status, their motivation to split off went away. But given the shifting landscape caused by covid, who knows what ramifications might happen, so maybe he was/is on to something. Not sure "P6" will help with that, but still ....

Without contradicting anything else I've said, I would agree that if the P5 decided to depart from the NCAA, the AAC as well as the Big East would be the first additions ro the new structure if the P5 allowed them, though I'd put the chances of the Big East getting in based on basketball higher than the AAC getting in based on either football or basketball

Still, clearly AAC schools have been playing at the FBS level longer than many other G5 schools, and the ones who haven't, like UCF and USF, have ginormous enrollments. The AAC is the only G5 league (well, other than decades-long doormat Rice of C-USA) with former members of power conferences. I can see why they want to be associated with the P5's as opposed to the other G5 leagues.

But at present, there is no way they are part of a Power 6 or Autonomous 6 or tens-of-millions-in-media-revenue 6. They're the fanciest by far of the G5, even to the point that they can compete perfectly well with P5's on the field but they are still slumming it with us Sun Belters, the MAC, C-USA, and the MW. As for what the future holds? Your guess is as good as mine.

(08-24-2020 10:35 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  In football, the AAC, in its very best year simultaneous with a P5's worst year, is by the slimmest of margins better than one of the P5. Prime example is 2019. On the average over, say, five years, the P5 leagues have a clear distance between themselves and the AAC.

In basketball, there actually is a Power 6, and that does not include the AAC. The Big East isn't just a top six. It is just about always top three. The AAC may occasionally outperform one of the basketball P6, but on the average, it is the seventh best basketball league.

That said, I recognize this is more about football. I will acknowledge that the P6 is a marketing campaign and that it is doing a pretty good job at it. Present day, though, the AAC is still part of the G5. Yes, it has significant distance in the Massey ratings and in revenue, etc., from fellow G5's, just as the SEC often does from other P5's, but it is nonetheless a G5 league for the reasons I listed in my OP. The AAC can go 25-0 against the other G5. It's still no more a P6 than North Dakota State is a G5 or P5 when it routinely beats FBS schools.

Ah, the distinction there is that No Dak is a FCS because of scholarship limitations. There is actually a defined difference between the FBS. The P5 is a marketing concept that was thought up by the schools in the autonomous conferences and ESPN to further subjugate schools like UC, USF and some others. So if the autonomous group can come up with a marketing phrase, so can anyone else.

(08-24-2020 10:52 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 10:35 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  In football, the AAC, in its very best year simultaneous with a P5's worst year, is by the slimmest of margins better than one of the P5. Prime example is 2019. On the average over, say, five years, the P5 leagues have a clear distance between themselves and the AAC.

In basketball, there actually is a Power 6, and that does not include the AAC. The Big East isn't just a top six. It is just about always top three. The AAC may occasionally outperform one of the basketball P6, but on the average, it is the seventh best basketball league.

That said, I recognize this is more about football. I will acknowledge that the P6 is a marketing campaign and that it is doing a pretty good job at it. Present day, though, the AAC is still part of the G5. Yes, it has significant distance in the Massey ratings and in revenue, etc., from fellow G5's, just as the SEC often does from other P5's, but it is nonetheless a G5 league for the reasons I listed in my OP. The AAC can go 25-0 against the other G5. It's still no more a P6 than North Dakota State is a G5 or P5 when it routinely beats FBS schools.

Ah, the distinction there is that No Dak is a FCS because of scholarship limitations. There is actually a defined difference between the FBS. The P5 is a marketing concept that was thought up by the schools in the autonomous conferences and ESPN to further subjugate schools like UC, USF and some others. So if the autonomous group can come up with a marketing phrase, so can anyone else.

Is there not a defined difference between the P5, i.e., Autonomy 5, and every other NCAA conference?

(08-24-2020 11:44 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 10:52 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 10:35 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  In football, the AAC, in its very best year simultaneous with a P5's worst year, is by the slimmest of margins better than one of the P5. Prime example is 2019. On the average over, say, five years, the P5 leagues have a clear distance between themselves and the AAC.

In basketball, there actually is a Power 6, and that does not include the AAC. The Big East isn't just a top six. It is just about always top three. The AAC may occasionally outperform one of the basketball P6, but on the average, it is the seventh best basketball league.

That said, I recognize this is more about football. I will acknowledge that the P6 is a marketing campaign and that it is doing a pretty good job at it. Present day, though, the AAC is still part of the G5. Yes, it has significant distance in the Massey ratings and in revenue, etc., from fellow G5's, just as the SEC often does from other P5's, but it is nonetheless a G5 league for the reasons I listed in my OP. The AAC can go 25-0 against the other G5. It's still no more a P6 than North Dakota State is a G5 or P5 when it routinely beats FBS schools.

Ah, the distinction there is that No Dak is a FCS because of scholarship limitations. There is actually a defined difference between the FBS. The P5 is a marketing concept that was thought up by the schools in the autonomous conferences and ESPN to further subjugate schools like UC, USF and some others. So if the autonomous group can come up with a marketing phrase, so can anyone else.

Is there not a defined difference between the P5, i.e., Autonomy 5, and every other NCAA conference?

The P5 offer the same number of scholarships as a G5 school.

(08-24-2020 11:46 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 11:44 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 10:52 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 10:35 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  In football, the AAC, in its very best year simultaneous with a P5's worst year, is by the slimmest of margins better than one of the P5. Prime example is 2019. On the average over, say, five years, the P5 leagues have a clear distance between themselves and the AAC.

In basketball, there actually is a Power 6, and that does not include the AAC. The Big East isn't just a top six. It is just about always top three. The AAC may occasionally outperform one of the basketball P6, but on the average, it is the seventh best basketball league.

That said, I recognize this is more about football. I will acknowledge that the P6 is a marketing campaign and that it is doing a pretty good job at it. Present day, though, the AAC is still part of the G5. Yes, it has significant distance in the Massey ratings and in revenue, etc., from fellow G5's, just as the SEC often does from other P5's, but it is nonetheless a G5 league for the reasons I listed in my OP. The AAC can go 25-0 against the other G5. It's still no more a P6 than North Dakota State is a G5 or P5 when it routinely beats FBS schools.

Ah, the distinction there is that No Dak is a FCS because of scholarship limitations. There is actually a defined difference between the FBS. The P5 is a marketing concept that was thought up by the schools in the autonomous conferences and ESPN to further subjugate schools like UC, USF and some others. So if the autonomous group can come up with a marketing phrase, so can anyone else.

Is there not a defined difference between the P5, i.e., Autonomy 5, and every other NCAA conference?

The P5 offer the same number of scholarships as a G5 school.

Fair enough. So with that argument, then there is no defined P5, P6, or G5. There's just FBS.

(08-24-2020 09:54 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 09:44 AM)Chappy Wrote:  Clearly, the AAC knows it is G5, because by definition the G5 are the 5 conferences that compete for that extra handout spot in the bowls that is given to us for knowing our role. And until we refuse the G5 spot in a bowl game, we are, in fact, G5.

The P6 campaign is pure marketing and a pledge that we are going to try to offer the same benefits the Autonomous 5 conferences are going to offer their athletes.

I think it's worked well for us.

I agree with all of this. I would add that since day one, Aresco has also said that a goal of the P6 campaign is to help ensure that if there is a P5 split from the NCAA, that the AAC get taken along with the P5.

I admit I have laughed at this, because IMO once the P5 got Autonomy status, their motivation to split off went away. But given the shifting landscape caused by covid, who knows what ramifications might happen, so maybe he was/is on to something. Not sure "P6" will help with that, but still ....

Basketball is a big motivation to split off.

(08-24-2020 12:08 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 11:46 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 11:44 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 10:52 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 10:35 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  In football, the AAC, in its very best year simultaneous with a P5's worst year, is by the slimmest of margins better than one of the P5. Prime example is 2019. On the average over, say, five years, the P5 leagues have a clear distance between themselves and the AAC.

In basketball, there actually is a Power 6, and that does not include the AAC. The Big East isn't just a top six. It is just about always top three. The AAC may occasionally outperform one of the basketball P6, but on the average, it is the seventh best basketball league.

That said, I recognize this is more about football. I will acknowledge that the P6 is a marketing campaign and that it is doing a pretty good job at it. Present day, though, the AAC is still part of the G5. Yes, it has significant distance in the Massey ratings and in revenue, etc., from fellow G5's, just as the SEC often does from other P5's, but it is nonetheless a G5 league for the reasons I listed in my OP. The AAC can go 25-0 against the other G5. It's still no more a P6 than North Dakota State is a G5 or P5 when it routinely beats FBS schools.

Ah, the distinction there is that No Dak is a FCS because of scholarship limitations. There is actually a defined difference between the FBS. The P5 is a marketing concept that was thought up by the schools in the autonomous conferences and ESPN to further subjugate schools like UC, USF and some others. So if the autonomous group can come up with a marketing phrase, so can anyone else.

Is there not a defined difference between the P5, i.e., Autonomy 5, and every other NCAA conference?

The P5 offer the same number of scholarships as a G5 school.

Fair enough. So with that argument, then there is no defined P5, P6, or G5. There's just FBS.

Ahhh now you’ve got it!

(08-24-2020 12:08 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 11:46 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 11:44 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 10:52 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 10:35 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  In football, the AAC, in its very best year simultaneous with a P5's worst year, is by the slimmest of margins better than one of the P5. Prime example is 2019. On the average over, say, five years, the P5 leagues have a clear distance between themselves and the AAC.

In basketball, there actually is a Power 6, and that does not include the AAC. The Big East isn't just a top six. It is just about always top three. The AAC may occasionally outperform one of the basketball P6, but on the average, it is the seventh best basketball league.

That said, I recognize this is more about football. I will acknowledge that the P6 is a marketing campaign and that it is doing a pretty good job at it. Present day, though, the AAC is still part of the G5. Yes, it has significant distance in the Massey ratings and in revenue, etc., from fellow G5's, just as the SEC often does from other P5's, but it is nonetheless a G5 league for the reasons I listed in my OP. The AAC can go 25-0 against the other G5. It's still no more a P6 than North Dakota State is a G5 or P5 when it routinely beats FBS schools.

Ah, the distinction there is that No Dak is a FCS because of scholarship limitations. There is actually a defined difference between the FBS. The P5 is a marketing concept that was thought up by the schools in the autonomous conferences and ESPN to further subjugate schools like UC, USF and some others. So if the autonomous group can come up with a marketing phrase, so can anyone else.

Is there not a defined difference between the P5, i.e., Autonomy 5, and every other NCAA conference?

The P5 offer the same number of scholarships as a G5 school.

Fair enough. So with that argument, then there is no defined P5, P6, or G5. There's just FBS.

"Group of Five" is a defined term in the CFP contract that specifically refers to the AAC, CUSA, MAC, MWC and Sun Belt as the five conferences that have the right to an automatic berth in one of the NY6 bowl games. The CFP contract also allocates a specific dollar amount to the "Group of Five" conferences.

P5 is a made up label for a very real group of conferences that are specifically referred to in the CFP contract, namely, the five conferences and Notre Dame that have specific contracts with the Rose, Sugar and Orange Bowl and who are allocated a specific, greater dollar amount from the CFP and NY6 monies.

The P5 also have specific autonomy voting rights that the G5 do not enjoy.

So, while P5 is an invented term, it wasn't just pulled out of the air because of the perceived prestige or notoriety of the SEC, B1G, ACC, PAC and B12...it's a specific group of teams that enjoy specific contractual rights to certain bowl games and who receive specific payments and have their own autonomy governing rights and process.

The only way for the AAC NOT to be included in the G5 is to not be included in the Group of Five in the next iteration of the CFP contract. I think that's the goal...that in the next CFP contract the AAC has its own Contract bowl for its champion, rather than being included in the Group of Five that share a berth to one of the NY6 bowl games.

(08-24-2020 12:22 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 12:08 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 11:46 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 11:44 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(08-24-2020 10:52 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  [/b]

Ah, the distinction there is that No Dak is a FCS because of scholarship limitations. There is actually a defined difference between the FBS. The P5 is a marketing concept that was thought up by the schools in the autonomous conferences and ESPN to further subjugate schools like UC, USF and some others. So if the autonomous group can come up with a marketing phrase, so can anyone else.

Is there not a defined difference between the P5, i.e., Autonomy 5, and every other NCAA conference?

The P5 offer the same number of scholarships as a G5 school.

Fair enough. So with that argument, then there is no defined P5, P6, or G5. There's just FBS.

"Group of Five" is a defined term in the CFP contract that specifically refers to the AAC, CUSA, MAC, MWC and Sun Belt as the five conferences that have the right to an automatic berth in one of the NY6 bowl games. The CFP contract also allocates a specific dollar amount to the "Group of Five" conferences.

P5 is a made up label for a very real group of conferences that are specifically referred to in the CFP contract, namely, the five conferences and Notre Dame that have specific contracts with the Rose, Sugar and Orange Bowl and who are allocated a specific, greater dollar amount from the CFP and NY6 monies.

The P5 also have specific autonomy voting rights that the G5 do not enjoy.

So, while P5 is an invented term, it wasn't just pulled out of the air because of the perceived prestige or notoriety of the SEC, B1G, ACC, PAC and B12...it's a specific group of teams that enjoy specific contractual rights to certain bowl games and who receive specific payments and have their own autonomy governing rights and process.

The only way for the AAC NOT to be included in the G5 is to not be included in the Group of Five in the next iteration of the CFP contract. I think that's the goal...that in the next CFP contract the AAC has its own Contract bowl for its champion, rather than being included in the Group of Five that share a berth to one of the NY6 bowl games.

Oh, I totally agree with that. That's basically the argument I was trying to make.

But if the argument is instead that there is only an FBS and no such thing as a Group of Five (G5) or Power 5 (or 6), then the AAC cannot be defined as special and separate from any other FBS conference, including the SB, MAC, C-USA, or MW. The AAC, using that argument, is in the same category as all of FBS.

So under one arguement, the AAC is classified as part of the Group of Five, not the so-called Power 5. Under the other argument, the AAC can only be grouped with the Power 5 if it is also classified with the Group of Five.