I wonder what the overall impact would have been had a Magnolia League came together in, say the 1950s?

The SWC likely loses Rice and SMU; the SEC loses Tulane and Vanderbilt; the ACC is out Duke and WF.

The new conference likely brings in a few more less prominent football programs from some academically selective institutions.

What happens in the SWC, SEC, and ACC?

For the SWC does it hasten the inclusion of TTU and Houston? A return of Oklahoma St perhaps? Do programs like Texas, TAMU, and Arkansas start seeking out Big 6/7/8 or SEC membership?

The ACC likely has to admit some of their SoCon schools they cast off like VT and WVU.

Reduced from 12 to 10, does the SEC feel they need to do anything?

Would UTEP and West Texas A&M get invited into SWC as well?

Without Duke, the ACC would be very different...because they have been influential in conference decisions.

On the positive side, Duke invests in athletics and has an outstanding basketball program. Duke has made the ACC welcoming to lots of private universities.

On the negative side, Duke led the effort to de-emphasize football in the 1960s (the SAT rule) and has been a reliable no vote on many expansion scenarios.

Not only would VT and WVU have been likely candidates early on, but the ACC may have been willing to have serious conversations with UF and PSU when windows opened in the 1970s and 1980s.

Is this a Joanna Gaines thing? Do think she is beautiful LOL


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Who would the Magnolia League expand with when they are forced to go beyond six schools? I'm thinking Tulsa would likely be in at some point as it would be more academically prestigious than the Missouri Valley, and of course with significantly less travel than their time in the WAC (which changes the whole WAC/Mountain West/Bjg West calculus). I don't know if Northwestern would leave the Big 10. Georgetown was not I-A. Boston College is even a bigger mismatch geographically.

That also assumes the Magnolia League could hold its own members throughout the decades. It may ultimately have been done away with by other conferences' moves to expand or even just survive other realignment cycles.

I think the best that could have happened would be this:

Tulsa, SMU, Rice, Tulane, Vanderbilt, Miami (FL), Duke, Wake Forest

Assuming the ACC and Magnolia both start in 1953, I think the ACC starts by adding Virginia (independent IRL) and Virginia Tech (SoCon). The SoCon is still larger than the ACC at this point, but you wonder if Furman, Davidson, or Richmond would be of interest to the Magnolia League as well.

The SEC holds steady at 10 without Vanderbilt and Tulane.

The now five team SWC takes Texas Tech from the Border, and Houston from the MVC, which no longer sponsors football. Oklahoma State joins the Big 7, which is promptly renamed the Big 8. Detroit Mercy and Wichita State become I-A Independents. The MVC is down to only 3 schools, the other being Saint Louis. They quickly invite Louisville (independent), Dayton (independent), and Cincinnati (independent, formerly MAC) Both Louisville and Cincinnati joined the MVC later on IRL. The Border invites North Texas (independent), which precludes North Texas from joining the MVC.

(08-15-2020 06:14 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Who would the Magnolia League expand with when they are forced to go beyond six schools? I'm thinking Tulsa would likely be in at some point as it would be more academically prestigious than the Missouri Valley, and of course with significantly less travel than their time in the WAC (which changes the whole WAC/Mountain West/Bjg West calculus). I don't know if Northwestern would leave the Big 10. Georgetown was not I-A. Boston College is even a bigger mismatch geographically.

Georgetown was I-A until 1950. Its lack of rivalry games and the decision to play guarantee games in out of the way places (Tulsa, Detroit, St. Louis) contributed to its financial decline. Also at issue: they did not have priority on home dates at Griffith Stadium and often played on Friday nights. Had they been able to hold on until the ACC was formed, who knows.

Virginia Tech was not an ACC target. At the time VPI was playing a decidedly small time schedule and William & Mary, not Tech, was a legitimate candidate. Here is the 1953 home schedule for the Gobblers:

Richmond
Washington & Lee
The Citadel (at Roanoke)
VMI (at Roanoke)

I'd have to think that any form of the "Magnolia Conference" would also incorporate Georgia Tech in that list...

(08-15-2020 06:14 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Who would the Magnolia League expand with when they are forced to go beyond six schools? I'm thinking Tulsa would likely be in at some point as it would be more academically prestigious than the Missouri Valley, and of course with significantly less travel than their time in the WAC (which changes the whole WAC/Mountain West/Bjg West calculus). I don't know if Northwestern would leave the Big 10. Georgetown was not I-A. Boston College is even a bigger mismatch geographically.

That also assumes the Magnolia League could hold its own members throughout the decades. It may ultimately have been done away with by other conferences' moves to expand or even just survive other realignment cycles.

I think the best that could have happened would be this:

Tulsa, SMU, Rice, Tulane, Vanderbilt, Miami (FL), Duke, Wake Forest

Assuming the ACC and Magnolia both start in 1953, I think the ACC starts by adding Virginia (independent IRL) and Virginia Tech (SoCon). The SoCon is still larger than the ACC at this point, but you wonder if Furman, Davidson, or Richmond would be of interest to the Magnolia League as well.

The SEC holds steady at 10 without Vanderbilt and Tulane.

The now five team SWC takes Texas Tech from the Border, and Houston from the MVC, which no longer sponsors football. Oklahoma State joins the Big 7, which is promptly renamed the Big 8. Detroit Mercy and Wichita State become I-A Independents. The MVC is down to only 3 schools, the other being Saint Louis. They quickly invite Louisville (independent), Dayton (independent), and Cincinnati (independent, formerly MAC) Both Louisville and Cincinnati joined the MVC later on IRL. The Border invites North Texas (independent), which precludes North Texas from joining the MVC.

No. With SMU gone North Texas would have gotten a real look from the SWC. UNT was killing it in the late 50's through early 70's. In that time frame, North Texas was 3-1 versus Houston, and Texas Tech wouldn't pay us. UNT has a 4-4 record all time against Texas Tech. In 1960, North Texas RB Abner Haynes was selected in the 1st round of the AFL Draft by the Dallas Texans (now Kansas City Chiefs), where he went on to become the league Player of the Year, leading rusher, and Rookie of the Year. And by playing at North Texas, Haynes also broke the color barrier for major college football in the state of Texas. In 1969, North Texas had all time great Mean Joe Greene drafted in the 1st round. If a Magnolia Conference would have formed in the 50's, I think North Texas would have had a strong chance at replacing SMU in the old SWC.

(08-15-2020 10:49 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  I'd have to think that any form of the "Magnolia Conference" would also incorporate Georgia Tech in that list...

Perhaps as a transition out of independence like the Metro was. However the Magnolia Conference doesn't really have football first members. So that's not really a long-term solution.

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(08-15-2020 10:49 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  I'd have to think that any form of the "Magnolia Conference" would also incorporate Georgia Tech in that list...

I could see GT settling in with the Magnolia League but I can also still see them in the ACC.

Georgia Tech is a public school just like Purdue. Its roots are in the SEC, of which they should have never left.

(08-15-2020 11:30 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  No. With SMU gone North Texas would have gotten a real look from the SWC...If a Magnolia Conference would have formed in the 50's, I think North Texas would have had a strong chance at replacing SMU in the old SWC.

UT would have never signed off on (what was then) North Texas State College playing in 15,000 seat Fouts Field as a SWC team.

A true Magnolia League likely would have had private schools only. So no Georgia Tech, Virginia, etc.

I do think Tulsa would have been a strong candidate for such a league had it been created in the 1950s.

Chargeradio had this and I agree:

Tulsa, SMU, Rice, Tulane, Vanderbilt, Miami (FL), Duke, Wake Forest

What about the academies. Seems they would have been s good fit for a Magnolia League.

(08-16-2020 10:20 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  What about the academies. Seems they would have been s good fit for a Magnolia League.

Not a bad point. Intriguing.

Richmond would need to be considered as well. My take

Duke
Miami (FL)
Rice
Richmond
SMU
TCU
Tulane
Vanderbilt
Wake Forrest

Tulsa would need to be considered, but not sure if they have the academic rep to get in. Since the idea of the Magnolia League was based on getting academically elite schools they could have reached out to Emory and to a lesser extent Washington U to see if they would be interested in upgrading their athletics.

(08-16-2020 10:20 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  What about the academies. Seems they would have been s good fit for a Magnolia League.

I could definitely see this happening after the Vietnam War era, where the politics of the Ivies leaned liberal and the academies conservative.

(08-16-2020 09:13 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Georgia Tech is a public school just like Purdue. Its roots are in the SEC, of which they should have never left.

(08-15-2020 11:30 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  No. With SMU gone North Texas would have gotten a real look from the SWC...If a Magnolia Conference would have formed in the 50's, I think North Texas would have had a strong chance at replacing SMU in the old SWC.

UT would have never signed off on (what was then) North Texas State College playing in 15,000 seat Fouts Field as a SWC team.

Fouts was a 20,000 seat stadium when it was built. It was never a 15k stadium. For comparison, Jones Stadium at Texas Tech only had a capacity of 27,000 from 1949 through 1959. And, Houston was playing in the 14,500 seat capacity Houston Independent School District Stadium before moving to Rice Stadium from 1951- 1965. So, Fouts may not have been a palace, it was a respectable stadium in the 1950's. By the Hayden Fry years of the 1970's, North Texas played their home games at the Dallas Cowboys' Texas Stadium.

Fouts would not have negatively effected our chances in the 1950's, and Texas Stadium would not have negatively effected our chances in the 1970's. Both stadiums were comparable or better than the situations at Texas Tech and Houston. Again, With SMU in a Magnolia Conference, North Texas would have gotten a serious look from the SWC.

(08-15-2020 04:03 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I wonder what the overall impact would have been had a Magnolia League came together in, say the 1950s?

The SWC likely loses Rice and SMU; the SEC loses Tulane and Vanderbilt; the ACC is out Duke and WF.

The new conference likely brings in a few more less prominent football programs from some academically selective institutions.

What happens in the SWC, SEC, and ACC?

For the SWC does it hasten the inclusion of TTU and Houston? A return of Oklahoma St perhaps? Do programs like Texas, TAMU, and Arkansas start seeking out Big 6/7/8 or SEC membership?

The ACC likely has to admit some of their SoCon schools they cast off like VT and WVU.

Reduced from 12 to 10, does the SEC feel they need to do anything?

You would probably looking at:

Baylor
Rice
TCU
SMU
Tulane
Tulsa
Vanderbilt
Wake Forest
Some Mix of:
Duke(?)
Miami(?)
Army(?)
Navy(?)

(08-15-2020 06:14 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Who would the Magnolia League expand with when they are forced to go beyond six schools? I'm thinking Tulsa would likely be in at some point as it would be more academically prestigious than the Missouri Valley, and of course with significantly less travel than their time in the WAC (which changes the whole WAC/Mountain West/Bjg West calculus). I don't know if Northwestern would leave the Big 10. Georgetown was not I-A. Boston College is even a bigger mismatch geographically.

That also assumes the Magnolia League could hold its own members throughout the decades. It may ultimately have been done away with by other conferences' moves to expand or even just survive other realignment cycles.

I think the best that could have happened would be this:

Tulsa, SMU, Rice, Tulane, Vanderbilt, Miami (FL), Duke, Wake Forest

Assuming the ACC and Magnolia both start in 1953, I think the ACC starts by adding Virginia (independent IRL) and Virginia Tech (SoCon). The SoCon is still larger than the ACC at this point, but you wonder if Furman, Davidson, or Richmond would be of interest to the Magnolia League as well.

The SEC holds steady at 10 without Vanderbilt and Tulane.

The now five team SWC takes Texas Tech from the Border, and Houston from the MVC, which no longer sponsors football. Oklahoma State joins the Big 7, which is promptly renamed the Big 8. Detroit Mercy and Wichita State become I-A Independents. The MVC is down to only 3 schools, the other being Saint Louis. They quickly invite Louisville (independent), Dayton (independent), and Cincinnati (independent, formerly MAC) Both Louisville and Cincinnati joined the MVC later on IRL. The Border invites North Texas (independent), which precludes North Texas from joining the MVC.

It’s interesting that you mention Miami. I could definitely see their administration steering them into the Magnolia. Schnellenberger never gets hired and the U doesn’t have that amazing 25 year run in the 80s, 90s, and early 00s.

(08-16-2020 10:10 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  A true Magnolia League likely would have had private schools only. So no Georgia Tech, Virginia, etc.

I do think Tulsa would have been a strong candidate for such a league had it been created in the 1950s.

Chargeradio had this and I agree:

Tulsa, SMU, Rice, Tulane, Vanderbilt, Miami (FL), Duke, Wake Forest

I think William & Mary (public) and Richmond would have been involved before Tulsa and Miami.