(09-11-2020 12:29 PM)CaliWG Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 11:21 AM)Foreverandever Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 10:14 AM)CaliWG Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 10:05 AM)mustangxc Wrote:  The complicated thing about BYU and Liberty is that their stance in many cases involves suppressing others way of existing. I suppose if they simply disagreed with other's way of living that wouldn't be an issue.

"Suppressing others way of existing"? BYU calls a sin what they view as sin. Isn't that what religions have done for millennia? They have an honor code for the students who desire to attend their University. They aren't forcing anyone else to live by their standards.

Tell that to California or Utah where the LDS church has forced various propositions and laws on people that are definitely targeted based on their religious believes. There are plenty of religious schools who don't come with those issues.

Liberty is just as bad, with a university of Phoenix type acceptance rate. Meanwhile, GCU has similar set ups and doesn't catch grief.

It's not the reliigon that's the problem, it's what they do with it.

How exactly did the LDS Church force various propositions and laws on people? There are nearly 40 million people in CA, yet somehow a religious minority of 750k people forced them all to vote for Prop 8 at a time when even Obama was against gay marriage? Or are you talking about the alcohol laws that were passed while Utah was 98% LDS in 1935? In the last decade both gay marriage and medical marijuana have been legalized in Utah. The fact is that it is because of the family friendly culture established by the LDS Church and its members people are leaving CA (and similar states) in droves and moving to Utah. And while many states are deteriorating, Utah is thriving and sitting at 4.5% unemployment in the middle of a pandemic with reasonable cost of living and a top 5 quality of life rating.

What? Gay marriage is legal in Utah because it's now legal everywhere...

Also, as a Californian I can tell you that LDS pumping lots of money into Prop 8 didn't sit well with citizens here who felt that both the church and residents who mostly live in Utah/Idaho shouldn't be messing with laws in other states. Also LDS is way more than 750k, millions more.

(09-11-2020 01:09 PM)AztecEmpire Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 12:29 PM)CaliWG Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 11:21 AM)Foreverandever Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 10:14 AM)CaliWG Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 10:05 AM)mustangxc Wrote:  The complicated thing about BYU and Liberty is that their stance in many cases involves suppressing others way of existing. I suppose if they simply disagreed with other's way of living that wouldn't be an issue.

"Suppressing others way of existing"? BYU calls a sin what they view as sin. Isn't that what religions have done for millennia? They have an honor code for the students who desire to attend their University. They aren't forcing anyone else to live by their standards.

Tell that to California or Utah where the LDS church has forced various propositions and laws on people that are definitely targeted based on their religious believes. There are plenty of religious schools who don't come with those issues.

Liberty is just as bad, with a university of Phoenix type acceptance rate. Meanwhile, GCU has similar set ups and doesn't catch grief.

It's not the reliigon that's the problem, it's what they do with it.

How exactly did the LDS Church force various propositions and laws on people? There are nearly 40 million people in CA, yet somehow a religious minority of 750k people forced them all to vote for Prop 8 at a time when even Obama was against gay marriage? Or are you talking about the alcohol laws that were passed while Utah was 98% LDS in 1935? In the last decade both gay marriage and medical marijuana have been legalized in Utah. The fact is that it is because of the family friendly culture established by the LDS Church and its members people are leaving CA (and similar states) in droves and moving to Utah. And while many states are deteriorating, Utah is thriving and sitting at 4.5% unemployment in the middle of a pandemic with reasonable cost of living and a top 5 quality of life rating.

What? Gay marriage is legal in Utah because it's now legal everywhere...

Also, as a Californian I can tell you that LDS pumping lots of money into Prop 8 didn't sit well with citizens here who felt that both the church and residents who mostly live in Utah/Idaho shouldn't be messing with laws in other states. Also LDS is way more than 750k, millions more.

As a Californian, I can tell you all people of faith, including heavy influence from the Catholic Church, were the major drivers of it, but the LDS Church was an easy target in the aftermath. There are 750k LDS in California, 17 million worldwide.

(09-11-2020 02:29 PM)CaliWG Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 01:09 PM)AztecEmpire Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 12:29 PM)CaliWG Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 11:21 AM)Foreverandever Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 10:14 AM)CaliWG Wrote:  "Suppressing others way of existing"? BYU calls a sin what they view as sin. Isn't that what religions have done for millennia? They have an honor code for the students who desire to attend their University. They aren't forcing anyone else to live by their standards.

Tell that to California or Utah where the LDS church has forced various propositions and laws on people that are definitely targeted based on their religious believes. There are plenty of religious schools who don't come with those issues.

Liberty is just as bad, with a university of Phoenix type acceptance rate. Meanwhile, GCU has similar set ups and doesn't catch grief.

It's not the reliigon that's the problem, it's what they do with it.

How exactly did the LDS Church force various propositions and laws on people? There are nearly 40 million people in CA, yet somehow a religious minority of 750k people forced them all to vote for Prop 8 at a time when even Obama was against gay marriage? Or are you talking about the alcohol laws that were passed while Utah was 98% LDS in 1935? In the last decade both gay marriage and medical marijuana have been legalized in Utah. The fact is that it is because of the family friendly culture established by the LDS Church and its members people are leaving CA (and similar states) in droves and moving to Utah. And while many states are deteriorating, Utah is thriving and sitting at 4.5% unemployment in the middle of a pandemic with reasonable cost of living and a top 5 quality of life rating.

What? Gay marriage is legal in Utah because it's now legal everywhere...

Also, as a Californian I can tell you that LDS pumping lots of money into Prop 8 didn't sit well with citizens here who felt that both the church and residents who mostly live in Utah/Idaho shouldn't be messing with laws in other states. Also LDS is way more than 750k, millions more.

As a Californian, I can tell you all people of faith, including heavy influence from the Catholic Church, were the major drivers of it, but the LDS Church was an easy target in the aftermath. There are 750k LDS in California, 17 million worldwide.

LDS was a target because 30% of Pro Prop 8 funding came from outside the state and the Mormon church was not shy about pushing for it. The frustration was about letting Californians decide, not necessarily that there were Californians who voted for prop 8.

(09-11-2020 02:48 PM)AztecEmpire Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 02:29 PM)CaliWG Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 01:09 PM)AztecEmpire Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 12:29 PM)CaliWG Wrote:  

(09-11-2020 11:21 AM)Foreverandever Wrote:  Tell that to California or Utah where the LDS church has forced various propositions and laws on people that are definitely targeted based on their religious believes. There are plenty of religious schools who don't come with those issues.

Liberty is just as bad, with a university of Phoenix type acceptance rate. Meanwhile, GCU has similar set ups and doesn't catch grief.

It's not the reliigon that's the problem, it's what they do with it.

How exactly did the LDS Church force various propositions and laws on people? There are nearly 40 million people in CA, yet somehow a religious minority of 750k people forced them all to vote for Prop 8 at a time when even Obama was against gay marriage? Or are you talking about the alcohol laws that were passed while Utah was 98% LDS in 1935? In the last decade both gay marriage and medical marijuana have been legalized in Utah. The fact is that it is because of the family friendly culture established by the LDS Church and its members people are leaving CA (and similar states) in droves and moving to Utah. And while many states are deteriorating, Utah is thriving and sitting at 4.5% unemployment in the middle of a pandemic with reasonable cost of living and a top 5 quality of life rating.

What? Gay marriage is legal in Utah because it's now legal everywhere...

Also, as a Californian I can tell you that LDS pumping lots of money into Prop 8 didn't sit well with citizens here who felt that both the church and residents who mostly live in Utah/Idaho shouldn't be messing with laws in other states. Also LDS is way more than 750k, millions more.

As a Californian, I can tell you all people of faith, including heavy influence from the Catholic Church, were the major drivers of it, but the LDS Church was an easy target in the aftermath. There are 750k LDS in California, 17 million worldwide.

LDS was a target because 30% of Pro Prop 8 funding came from outside the state and the Mormon church was not shy about pushing for it. The frustration was about letting Californians decide, not necessarily that there were Californians who voted for prop 8.

Trump could spend $1B in California and he wouldn't come close to winning the state. Blaming fundraising is just lazy. To ignore the will of the people of CA and blame the outcome on fundraising by the LDS Church is just being intellectually lazy, and shows many didn't like the outcome so they looked for a scapegoat to help themselves feel better.