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Anyone else Mystified by the Cancel Stampede?
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Anyone else Mystified by the Cancel Stampede?
(08-11-2020 12:16 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-11-2020 12:01 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(08-11-2020 11:49 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(08-11-2020 11:27 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  You have idiots who are not co-operating to help some spreading the virus, and the travel restrictions in place by the northern states.

But .... all that was happening on August 1st too.

Further to my last post, I believe that they were hoping/wishing/praying for a scenario where the medical advice that they would be receiving by this point would be that, "Yes, we believe that we can play football." They're still not receiving that medical advice. In fact, it might be to the contrary heading in the opposite direction (e.g. bullet's note about heart conditions arising from the coronavirus might mean it's a larger long-term health risk to younger people even if they don't have immediate symptoms).

The conferences, whether you're talking about the Big Ten or SEC, have ALL been waiting as long as possible to make a decision here. The Big Ten might be outwardly more skeptical about playing the college football season than the SEC and we can trot out all of the political tropes about the governors in places like Illinois and Michigan, but rest assured, they weren't going to give up on hundreds of millions of dollars of TV revenue until the LAST POSSIBLE MOMENT any more than the SEC. The leagues (maybe naively or simply with wishful thinking) thought that things could change within a week or two where the risk would be mitigated and it hasn't happened, so now we're at the "Go/No Go" decision point simply because of time.

I really don't think that this is a conspiracy that so many people believe (or want it) to be. My own company (one of the 50 largest companies in the world) gives two craps about what the politicians are stating one way or the other. Our offices are closed until at least October 1st EVERYWHERE, whether they're in California, Texas, Georgia or Illinois. How the Governor of Texas is thinking compared to how the Governor of Illinois is thinking has absolutely ZERO bearing on our decision making. Ultimately, our own medical and legal advice shows that the liability risk is too great to bring back people to our offices, so we're not doing it. Pretty much every other company of our size is doing the same and universities are going to go through the same analysis.

I agree companies don't consider governors. But schools are governmental entities dependent on governmental subsidies. My spouse's company had a very few essential workers there the whole time. On July 1, she was allowed to go back two days a week. Often she is the only one on her floor. Large numbers of people aren't going back before 2021 and some may work remotely indefinitely.

Oh, I agree that public institutions have a layer of political wrangling that they inherently need to deal with.

I'm just saying that if you're a university president and your medical and legal experts are stating one thing and then you decide to go forward with the opposite, then that's an incredible amount of liability exposure to that university president both personally and to the university overall. This is where you get those massive punitive damage awards coming into play.
08-11-2020 12:29 PM
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EigenEagle Online
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Post: #22
RE: Anyone else Mystified by the Cancel Stampede?
Once universities decided to have in-person class, any argument against football season related to concerns over player safety crashed and burned. You can send the players home to learn online or have the season, but don't tell me they're safer spending more time at bars and campus hang-outs and not getting tested every week.

And yes, I do think with this year being a multiple of 4 politics is playing a role here because certain people will benefit if there's less a sense of normalcy in the Fall (one particular major network is just over the moon with the news of season cancellations). It's a really sad state of affairs, but it is what it is.
08-11-2020 12:33 PM
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YNot Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Anyone else Mystified by the Cancel Stampede?
(08-11-2020 12:29 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(08-11-2020 12:16 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(08-11-2020 12:01 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(08-11-2020 11:49 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(08-11-2020 11:27 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  You have idiots who are not co-operating to help some spreading the virus, and the travel restrictions in place by the northern states.

But .... all that was happening on August 1st too.

Further to my last post, I believe that they were hoping/wishing/praying for a scenario where the medical advice that they would be receiving by this point would be that, "Yes, we believe that we can play football." They're still not receiving that medical advice. In fact, it might be to the contrary heading in the opposite direction (e.g. bullet's note about heart conditions arising from the coronavirus might mean it's a larger long-term health risk to younger people even if they don't have immediate symptoms).

The conferences, whether you're talking about the Big Ten or SEC, have ALL been waiting as long as possible to make a decision here. The Big Ten might be outwardly more skeptical about playing the college football season than the SEC and we can trot out all of the political tropes about the governors in places like Illinois and Michigan, but rest assured, they weren't going to give up on hundreds of millions of dollars of TV revenue until the LAST POSSIBLE MOMENT any more than the SEC. The leagues (maybe naively or simply with wishful thinking) thought that things could change within a week or two where the risk would be mitigated and it hasn't happened, so now we're at the "Go/No Go" decision point simply because of time.

I really don't think that this is a conspiracy that so many people believe (or want it) to be. My own company (one of the 50 largest companies in the world) gives two craps about what the politicians are stating one way or the other. Our offices are closed until at least October 1st EVERYWHERE, whether they're in California, Texas, Georgia or Illinois. How the Governor of Texas is thinking compared to how the Governor of Illinois is thinking has absolutely ZERO bearing on our decision making. Ultimately, our own medical and legal advice shows that the liability risk is too great to bring back people to our offices, so we're not doing it. Pretty much every other company of our size is doing the same and universities are going to go through the same analysis.

I agree companies don't consider governors. But schools are governmental entities dependent on governmental subsidies. My spouse's company had a very few essential workers there the whole time. On July 1, she was allowed to go back two days a week. Often she is the only one on her floor. Large numbers of people aren't going back before 2021 and some may work remotely indefinitely.

Oh, I agree that public institutions have a layer of political wrangling that they inherently need to deal with.

I'm just saying that if you're a university president and your medical and legal experts are stating one thing and then you decide to go forward with the opposite, then that's an incredible amount of liability exposure to that university president both personally and to the university overall. This is where you get those massive punitive damage awards coming into play.

The interesting aspect in all of this is that the SEC and ACC...and NFL and NFLPA...have medical experts that are telling them that it is safe to play football, while the B1G, MAC, PAC and MWC apparently are hearing different advice.
08-11-2020 12:40 PM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Anyone else Mystified by the Cancel Stampede?
(08-11-2020 11:09 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  What happened to make conference like the B1G suddenly pivot toward canceling?

Just last week, the P5 were releasing football schedules, and to my knowledge, NOTHING about the CV19 situation then is substantively different from it is now.

Now of course, on say August 1st it was certainly possible for a P5 to be against playing football. But they ALL were in favor of playing football as they were all releasing schedules. ALL.

So what happened? Did i miss something and did USA cases or deaths suddenly go up 50% *over what they were on August 1st*?

I am mystified.

07-coffee3



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08-11-2020 12:43 PM
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Attackcoog Online
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Post: #25
RE: Anyone else Mystified by the Cancel Stampede?
(08-11-2020 12:17 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(08-11-2020 12:02 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(08-11-2020 11:48 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(08-11-2020 11:18 AM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  Politicians told them do so? Pretty simple really.

I actually don't think it's driven by the politicians, as much as everything around the pandemic has become politicized. Even the supposedly stringent states like Illinois and New York have been allowing pro sports and the opening of public university campuses.

To me, it's actually MUCH simpler and no different than how a corporation with real assets at stake are acting in this environment. These university presidents aren't going to sign-off on going forward unless medical professionals and lawyers sign-off on going forward... and those medical professionals simply aren't signing off on anything, which means that the lawyers aren't going to sign off on it, either.

If a university president directly ignores the advice of both medical and legal professionals, then they are personally f*cked if there is ONE bad case. I can't emphasize this enough. The liability exposure from just ONE bad case is massive and you can multiply that by several factors if they actually ignore medical and legal advice to the contrary... and you're getting into personal liability for those university presidents beyond the liability for the university overall.

I don't care how much politicians might squawk one way or the other - no reasonable president is going to put their professional lives on the line along with opening up their respective universities to unlimited exposure if medical and legal professionals are stating that they should not be playing football or other fall sports in the current situation.

And exactly how is it that Target and Walmart and every other going concern is not equally as liable? How about all the students and employees that are currently coming to work at universities---arent they just as liable for those folks? This is a pandemic---and act of God. As long as they are taking reasonable precautions then there is really no more liabity than there is with anything else. The standard of liabilty has always been the "reasonable man" standard. Did they take reasonable precautions given the situation. Looking at the set of protocols the P5 have set, which are uch much higher than those being used by almost any going concern is currently utilizing, its hard to argue they have not. Not to mention, the burden of proof lies with the platiff to prove they definitively contracted Covid from a football game and somewhere else.

Target and Walmart could certainly be liable, but they have their own risk profiles where they can state if they have social distancing, wearing of mask at all times and all risk mitigation factors then their potential liability exposure doesn't outweigh a complete shutdown of their businesses.

To the extent that a "reasonable person" standard applies, the problem for the universities is that if medical professionals are directly stating that it is not safe to play football, then it's NOT reasonable for a university president to act to the contrary. It is quite established that a reasonable person would follow medical advice with respect to a medical issue, so it's caveat emptor if you ignore it.

Also, I know that you have argued that a strict causation standard for the burden of proof is supposed to give comfort here, but rest assured, there is no university attorney that is going to want to sit in front of a jury attempting to defend a university president that directly ignored medical advice (and such advice is probably easily found through a cursory FOIA search).

This isn't about the causation - it's about the IGNORING medical advice that created an environment that recklessly endangered students. That is a horrible set of facts for any defendant. You can't use a "reasonable person" argument if medical experts are directly stating the opposite.

Again---Whether it is or it is not safe to play will differ under different conditions and protocols. Futhermore, there are clearly differing medical opinions. Also---when your asking about safety--the question also needs to be asked---compared to what? If we are comparing it to sitting in a locked down sealed basement with air filtration and previous stocked food and provisions with zero visitation from the outside world--well, no activity is going to be "safe" in comparison to that. But how about, in comparison to those of us living every day life? How about in comparison to the average virus contraction rate of their peer 18 to 22 year demographic group? If those rates were expected to be similar or actually turn out to be similar---a virus case is done for.

My point is, there is risk everywhere. Id be way more concerned about future concussion brain trauma cases than this.
(This post was last modified: 08-11-2020 12:57 PM by Attackcoog.)
08-11-2020 12:53 PM
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mturn017 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Anyone else Mystified by the Cancel Stampede?
(08-11-2020 12:33 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  Once universities decided to have in-person class, any argument against football season related to concerns over player safety crashed and burned. You can send the players home to learn online or have the season, but don't tell me they're safer spending more time at bars and campus hang-outs and not getting tested every week.

And yes, I do think with this year being a multiple of 4 politics is playing a role here because certain people will benefit if there's less a sense of normalcy in the Fall (one particular major network is just over the moon with the news of season cancellations). It's a really sad state of affairs, but it is what it is.

Fair point. I think a lot of Universities are really playing a shell game here though. They couldn't SAY they wouldn't be returning to campus in the fall and expect the same enrollment. Now that they're back to campus, give it a few weeks maybe till October and the numbers really jump. They'll be sent home again.
08-11-2020 12:57 PM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Anyone else Mystified by the Cancel Stampede?
(08-11-2020 11:09 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  What happened to make conference like the B1G suddenly pivot toward canceling?

Just last week, the P5 were releasing football schedules, and to my knowledge, NOTHING about the CV19 situation then is substantively different from it is now.

Now of course, on say August 1st it was certainly possible for a P5 to be against playing football. But they ALL were in favor of playing football as they were all releasing schedules. ALL.

Your mistake is in considering "releasing schedules" a "yes."

In reality, it just meant they weren't cancelling, yet. It was a way to kick the can down the road a few weeks and hope that a miracle would happen and they wouldn't have to make a tough decision.

Quote:So what happened? Did i miss something and did USA cases or deaths suddenly go up 50% *over what they were on August 1st*?

I am mystified.

07-coffee3
08-11-2020 01:03 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Anyone else Mystified by the Cancel Stampede?
I’m dumb founded that the idiots making these decisions have duped the American people for this long.

Let’s call this what it is: a flu season with a strain that is more lethal than most among populations that are already susceptible.

The media and politicians have politicized it all for personal gain and the machinations of their own agendas.
08-11-2020 01:13 PM
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YNot Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Anyone else Mystified by the Cancel Stampede?
(08-11-2020 01:03 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(08-11-2020 11:09 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  What happened to make conference like the B1G suddenly pivot toward canceling?

Just last week, the P5 were releasing football schedules, and to my knowledge, NOTHING about the CV19 situation then is substantively different from it is now.

Now of course, on say August 1st it was certainly possible for a P5 to be against playing football. But they ALL were in favor of playing football as they were all releasing schedules. ALL.

Your mistake is in considering "releasing schedules" a "yes."

In reality, it just meant they weren't cancelling, yet. It was a way to kick the can down the road a few weeks and hope that a miracle would happen and they wouldn't have to make a tough decision.

Quote:So what happened? Did i miss something and did USA cases or deaths suddenly go up 50% *over what they were on August 1st*?

I am mystified.

07-coffee3

These conferences 'kicked the can down the road' like 5 or 6 days. That doesn't add up.

May be the administrators at certain schools received severe push back because *they released the schedules*?
08-11-2020 01:32 PM
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Todor Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Anyone else Mystified by the Cancel Stampede?
(08-11-2020 01:13 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’m dumb founded that the idiots making these decisions have duped the American people for this long.

Let’s call this what it is: a flu season with a strain that is more lethal than most among populations that are already susceptible.

The media and politicians have politicized it all for personal gain and the machinations of their own agendas.

Thank you. Recorded flu deaths are at virtually zero, while covid deaths are almost exactly where flu deaths are normally.

If there was real concern for safety, football wouldn't be played ever.
08-11-2020 01:34 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Anyone else Mystified by the Cancel Stampede?
Does COVID have to have the death count of the Spanish Flu for it to earn one's respect or fear?

One of the benefits of living in these times is news traveling faster. Many people responded. Another benefit is seeing the rest of the world effectively taking actions to lessen the impact of this thing, with some mixed results, but, still, most are taking it seriously. Not the US, though. We think we have this one figured out, and it's a sham. Ok.

As for why schools pulled a 180 on sports? Because they're hurting big time, and the possibility of any further damage by a lawsuit or added stress and expense to create that "airtight" system where everybody is safe, but doesn't actually exist. Then again, this is higher ed. "Glacial pace" higher ed. Why it took so long? When does anything higher ed do actually get done quickly?

I am annoyed we're losing sports as much as the next person, but, I'm more annoyed that when the Ivy threw in the towel, it took so long for everyone else to finally do it, too. I think I know what leaders at these schools were hoping for: greater mindfulness, maturity, and a mysterious but sudden and impactful decrease in cases. It never came. Again, it seems like the Ivy knew that it wouldn't.
08-11-2020 01:57 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Anyone else Mystified by the Cancel Stampede?
(08-11-2020 01:13 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’m dumb founded that the idiots making these decisions have duped the American people for this long.

Let’s call this what it is: a flu season with a strain that is more lethal than most among populations that are already susceptible.

The media and politicians have politicized it all for personal gain and the machinations of their own agendas.

This
08-30-2020 12:22 PM
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