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Power 5 Leaders Exploring Possibility of Staging Their Own Fall Sports Championships
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whittx Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Power 5 Leaders Exploring Possibility of Staging Their Own Fall Sports Championships
(08-02-2020 10:14 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 10:02 AM)domer1978 Wrote:  Keep the bball tournament with the NCAA. Carve out the P5 plus some friends and create a separate league.

If the breakaway happens monetizing basketball more fully is essential. You can't do that through the NCAA controlling the tourney. Season before last they got over 1 Billion for the tourney. They bankroll into one of their two endowments 70 million plus a year, take 5 years to payout the credits for a single tournament so that they control funds to draw interest compound for 4 years, and the last time I checked (maybe 3 years ago) they were zeroing in on 2 billion in endowed funds.

These nimrods who think that the NCAA is anyone's friend need to wake up.

If the P5 breaks away it won't be for football only. Owning the College World Series, the Women's and Men's basketball tourneys, Hockey for those who play it, all would increase the contract value of those involved.

Each sport might start with the P5 as the core but baseball could easily include programs like Dallas Baptist, Fresno State, Cal State Fullerton, etc. The Big East would definitely be included for hoops and that is where they stand to make a lot more revenue without the NCAA. So it won't be done for football only. Football already monetizes itself independent of the NCAA. But one reason basketball only earns 20% of what CFB earns is because the NCAA controls that tournament revenue and they keep expanding the tournament to make the tournament more of a spectacle while devaluing the regular season.

But like any bureaucracy the NCAA has grown into an entity that protects and serves itself and it is so outdated that a new and more flexible governing structure is needed.
But would the Ivy League sign off on this, since their teams would be part of any hockey or lacrosse super federation?
08-02-2020 06:01 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Power 5 Leaders Exploring Possibility of Staging Their Own Fall Sports Championships
(08-02-2020 06:01 PM)whittx Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 10:14 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 10:02 AM)domer1978 Wrote:  Keep the bball tournament with the NCAA. Carve out the P5 plus some friends and create a separate league.

If the breakaway happens monetizing basketball more fully is essential. You can't do that through the NCAA controlling the tourney. Season before last they got over 1 Billion for the tourney. They bankroll into one of their two endowments 70 million plus a year, take 5 years to payout the credits for a single tournament so that they control funds to draw interest compound for 4 years, and the last time I checked (maybe 3 years ago) they were zeroing in on 2 billion in endowed funds.

These nimrods who think that the NCAA is anyone's friend need to wake up.

If the P5 breaks away it won't be for football only. Owning the College World Series, the Women's and Men's basketball tourneys, Hockey for those who play it, all would increase the contract value of those involved.

Each sport might start with the P5 as the core but baseball could easily include programs like Dallas Baptist, Fresno State, Cal State Fullerton, etc. The Big East would definitely be included for hoops and that is where they stand to make a lot more revenue without the NCAA. So it won't be done for football only. Football already monetizes itself independent of the NCAA. But one reason basketball only earns 20% of what CFB earns is because the NCAA controls that tournament revenue and they keep expanding the tournament to make the tournament more of a spectacle while devaluing the regular season.

But like any bureaucracy the NCAA has grown into an entity that protects and serves itself and it is so outdated that a new and more flexible governing structure is needed.
But would the Ivy League sign off on this, since their teams would be part of any hockey or lacrosse super federation?

The point is whether they would or wouldn't is strictly up to them.
08-02-2020 06:41 PM
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HiddenDragon Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Power 5 Leaders Exploring Possibility of Staging Their Own Fall Sports Championships
(08-02-2020 05:42 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 01:17 PM)HiddenDragon Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 10:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  I think it's also a warning shot to the G5, not to support any such moves in NCAA councils, as it would be catastrophic for the G5 to be left out.

But if the popular thought is the G-5 will eventually be left out then it really doesn't matter if they support the NCAA or not. Again, it's like to P-5 saying to the G-5, "if you wanna to continue sucking our tits a little longer than you better do what we say!"

I don't think it would be catastrophic for the entire G-5 but it would definitely weed out the schools that can survive from those who can't. At some point the G-5 is going to have to figure out how to survive on its own without the 1 to 2 million dollars hand me down from P-5 schools. It's long been time for the G-5 to cut the umbilical cord from the P-5.

Well, the popular thought could very well be wrong - absent a compelling event I don't think the P5 is going to leave the NCAA any time soon - so why do something to provoke something that could induce it? I mean, if your life depends on sucking a hind tit, then yes, it makes sense to do what the tit-holder wants, LOL.

IMO, the P5 separating from the G5 is a entire net negative to the G5. Do not see how that could possibly be helpful. Basically, national interest in college football is driven by the high-value P5 teams. Separate from them and what would the G5 have left?

I don't think the G5 life depends on it. And what does the G5 has now? A P5 tit they can take away at anytime.

G5 is never going to make P5 money but it can find another way to make the money they currently get now and maybe even a little more. People that say something can't get done are followers. G5 need leaders; not wait to see when the P5 says it's time for you to die.
08-02-2020 08:38 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Power 5 Leaders Exploring Possibility of Staging Their Own Fall Sports Championships
if there was a breakaway organization what does the leadership structure look like and what are the limits of their powers? Would they negotiate media contracts too?
08-02-2020 08:46 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Power 5 Leaders Exploring Possibility of Staging Their Own Fall Sports Championships
(08-02-2020 08:38 PM)HiddenDragon Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 05:42 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 01:17 PM)HiddenDragon Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 10:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  I think it's also a warning shot to the G5, not to support any such moves in NCAA councils, as it would be catastrophic for the G5 to be left out.

But if the popular thought is the G-5 will eventually be left out then it really doesn't matter if they support the NCAA or not. Again, it's like to P-5 saying to the G-5, "if you wanna to continue sucking our tits a little longer than you better do what we say!"

I don't think it would be catastrophic for the entire G-5 but it would definitely weed out the schools that can survive from those who can't. At some point the G-5 is going to have to figure out how to survive on its own without the 1 to 2 million dollars hand me down from P-5 schools. It's long been time for the G-5 to cut the umbilical cord from the P-5.

Well, the popular thought could very well be wrong - absent a compelling event I don't think the P5 is going to leave the NCAA any time soon - so why do something to provoke something that could induce it? I mean, if your life depends on sucking a hind tit, then yes, it makes sense to do what the tit-holder wants, LOL.

IMO, the P5 separating from the G5 is a entire net negative to the G5. Do not see how that could possibly be helpful. Basically, national interest in college football is driven by the high-value P5 teams. Separate from them and what would the G5 have left?

I don't think the G5 life depends on it. And what does the G5 has now? A P5 tit they can take away at anytime.

G5 is never going to make P5 money but it can find another way to make the money they currently get now and maybe even a little more. People that say something can't get done are followers. G5 need leaders; not wait to see when the P5 says it's time for you to die.

Yeah---I think a quick review of the budgets would find the G5 probably relies far more on student fees and university subsidies payments than the any P5 handouts. The P5 taking their ball and leaving would certainly hurt, but my guess is that G5 budgets would adapt and become even leaner. Its really the possibility of reduced enrollments in the fall due to Covid that could be a real G5 killer. Many G5 schools rely heavily on those student athletic fees to properly fund their athletic budgets.
(This post was last modified: 08-02-2020 11:46 PM by Attackcoog.)
08-02-2020 11:42 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Power 5 Leaders Exploring Possibility of Staging Their Own Fall Sports Championships
(08-02-2020 11:42 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 08:38 PM)HiddenDragon Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 05:42 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 01:17 PM)HiddenDragon Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 10:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  I think it's also a warning shot to the G5, not to support any such moves in NCAA councils, as it would be catastrophic for the G5 to be left out.

But if the popular thought is the G-5 will eventually be left out then it really doesn't matter if they support the NCAA or not. Again, it's like to P-5 saying to the G-5, "if you wanna to continue sucking our tits a little longer than you better do what we say!"

I don't think it would be catastrophic for the entire G-5 but it would definitely weed out the schools that can survive from those who can't. At some point the G-5 is going to have to figure out how to survive on its own without the 1 to 2 million dollars hand me down from P-5 schools. It's long been time for the G-5 to cut the umbilical cord from the P-5.

Well, the popular thought could very well be wrong - absent a compelling event I don't think the P5 is going to leave the NCAA any time soon - so why do something to provoke something that could induce it? I mean, if your life depends on sucking a hind tit, then yes, it makes sense to do what the tit-holder wants, LOL.

IMO, the P5 separating from the G5 is a entire net negative to the G5. Do not see how that could possibly be helpful. Basically, national interest in college football is driven by the high-value P5 teams. Separate from them and what would the G5 have left?

I don't think the G5 life depends on it. And what does the G5 has now? A P5 tit they can take away at anytime.

G5 is never going to make P5 money but it can find another way to make the money they currently get now and maybe even a little more. People that say something can't get done are followers. G5 need leaders; not wait to see when the P5 says it's time for you to die.

Yeah---I think a quick review of the budgets would find the G5 probably relies far more on student fees and university subsidies payments than the any P5 handouts. The P5 taking their ball and leaving would certainly hurt, but my guess is that G5 budgets would adapt and become even leaner. Its really the possibility of reduced enrollments in the fall due to Covid that could be a real G5 killer. Many G5 schools rely heavily on those student athletic fees to properly fund their athletic budgets.

Most of G5 runs deep deficits. UAB has a $36M budget subsidized $23.1M by student fees and of State tax funds (directly and indirectly) for the classroom transferred to the Athletic Department. UAB has just under 10,000 undergrads (FTE reported by UAB to the US Department of Education = the official number, not an advertising fudge number), meaning every student sees over $2,300 of their tuition and fees (whether they pay for them or somebody else) sent to athletics instead of their education expenses.

UAB is not a poster child for high per student cost to remain in FBS, as there are several schools worse in the MAC, but I chose it because it is the school HiddenDragon works for or is associated with. My own school San Jose State is subsidized a similar $21.5m, but has a much larger undergrad population of 23,000 students; but this is still over $900 per student, which is bad, but more sustainable. Boise State has what is generally thought of as the best value budget in G5, but is still supported $15m a year for 12,750 students, or about $1,200 per student.

All G5 lose money. The question is how much will this be tolerated in the coming years. If P5 do break away, then the claim that you are playing at the same level as Ohio State, Alabama and UCLA goes into the trash can. Most G5 schools would be wise to scale back to FCS levels of spending and save $5M a year with no more P5 income or association. Schools will have to make a determination if it is still worth ever increasing deficits to chase P5 if they are no longer in the same sanctioning body.

(I am sure many in the grey area like BYU, some of the MWC and many of the AAC schools will decide yes .. but anyone else would be foolish, and even some who will are going to be shown foolish)

The gap will be greater from G5 to P5 than from G5 to FCS.
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2020 03:37 AM by Stugray2.)
08-03-2020 12:57 AM
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HiddenDragon Offline
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RE: Power 5 Leaders Exploring Possibility of Staging Their Own Fall Sports Championships
1. The simple fact that the P-5 is autonomous and the G-5 isn't already tells you the two aren't playing at the same level.

2. The gap will never close between the P5 and G5 and will only continue to get wider.

The G-5 is on the verge of becoming extinct and we can continue to come up with excuses as to why the G-5 should be content with hanging on the coattails of the P-5. Or G-5 programs can find a solution or become creative and finding other streams of revenue to remain somewhat relevant.

And I'm not advocating that the G-5 just totally disassociate itself from the P-5, it just can't be so dependent on them that they determine your survival. There is a place for the G-5 but where it currently lies isn't viable anymore.
08-03-2020 07:55 AM
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Post: #48
RE: Power 5 Leaders Exploring Possibility of Staging Their Own Fall Sports Championships
(08-02-2020 08:38 PM)HiddenDragon Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 05:42 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 01:17 PM)HiddenDragon Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 10:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  I think it's also a warning shot to the G5, not to support any such moves in NCAA councils, as it would be catastrophic for the G5 to be left out.

But if the popular thought is the G-5 will eventually be left out then it really doesn't matter if they support the NCAA or not. Again, it's like to P-5 saying to the G-5, "if you wanna to continue sucking our tits a little longer than you better do what we say!"

I don't think it would be catastrophic for the entire G-5 but it would definitely weed out the schools that can survive from those who can't. At some point the G-5 is going to have to figure out how to survive on its own without the 1 to 2 million dollars hand me down from P-5 schools. It's long been time for the G-5 to cut the umbilical cord from the P-5.

Well, the popular thought could very well be wrong - absent a compelling event I don't think the P5 is going to leave the NCAA any time soon - so why do something to provoke something that could induce it? I mean, if your life depends on sucking a hind tit, then yes, it makes sense to do what the tit-holder wants, LOL.

IMO, the P5 separating from the G5 is a entire net negative to the G5. Do not see how that could possibly be helpful. Basically, national interest in college football is driven by the high-value P5 teams. Separate from them and what would the G5 have left?

I don't think the G5 life depends on it. And what does the G5 has now? A P5 tit they can take away at anytime.

G5 is never going to make P5 money but it can find another way to make the money they currently get now and maybe even a little more. People that say something can't get done are followers. G5 need leaders; not wait to see when the P5 says it's time for you to die.

I agree that it is possible for G5 football to survive, and even thrive, in the absence of the P5 and that the G5 should be proactive in trying to become better off.

But right now, the whole G5 model is based on being associated, via the CFP and FBS, with the P5. There are deep imbrication's. For example:

1) G5 cost structures, from facilities to salaries, are deeply influenced by the P5. Why does a school like Akron build a white-elephant football stadium? To present a certain "big time" image of themselves that is derived from P5 standards.

2) Even more importantly, in the aspirational sense, G5 programs exist because there is the fundamental hope/belief that if we (our school) stick with this, we will become P5. There isn't a single G5 program that is happy being G5, all envision themselves as being P5, meaning having the resources and national visibility and stature of the top P5 programs. That's what drives the willingness to soak students for $25 million in subsidies each year. The notion that we are building toward that P5 goal. As crazy as it sounds, in Florida schools like USF and FAU and UCF see themselves rubbing elbows as full equals with Florida and FSU. In Texas schools like North Texas and Texas State see the same with Texas and Texas AM, and i bet in Alabama, strivers like UAB and USA have a vision of one day competing home and home with Alabama and Auburn. That's what funds the new stadiums, the coaches salaries, the $25m operating losses.

If you take that away, then some other kind of over-arching motive force for the enterprise will be needed to take its place, and I'm not sure what that would be.

So I'm not convinced there really is a "G5 space", as you call it, independent of the P5. To me, the G5 is kind of like a limbo, a purgatory. Take the P5 away and maybe FCS is the only stable space for current G5 schools.
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2020 08:22 AM by quo vadis.)
08-03-2020 08:16 AM
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MinerInWisconsin Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Power 5 Leaders Exploring Possibility of Staging Their Own Fall Sports Championships
(08-03-2020 12:57 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 11:42 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 08:38 PM)HiddenDragon Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 05:42 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(08-02-2020 01:17 PM)HiddenDragon Wrote:  




All G5 lose money. The question is how much will this be tolerated in the coming years. If P5 do break away, then the claim that you are playing at the same level as Ohio State, Alabama and UCLA goes into the trash can. Most G5 schools would be wise to scale back to FCS levels of spending and save $5M a year with no more P5 income or association. Schools will have to make a determination if it is still worth ever increasing deficits to chase P5 if they are no longer in the same sanctioning body.

Most FCS programs also are heavily subsidized. Many over 70 and 80 percent. I can't find the quote but within the last 2 years the Colorado St AD said that getting into a P5 conference was very important because the current non P5 budgets were not sustainable. I think most of the G5 will eventually have to come to grips with a vastly different arrangement for athletics. But FCS is not the answer, imho.
08-03-2020 09:41 AM
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Post: #50
RE: Power 5 Leaders Exploring Possibility of Staging Their Own Fall Sports Championships
I’ll say this much, if they manage to successfully operate without the NCAA for 2020-2021 I wouldn’t be surprised if they decide they don’t need them at all.
08-03-2020 10:01 AM
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Post: #51
RE: Power 5 Leaders Exploring Possibility of Staging Their Own Fall Sports Championships
(08-03-2020 07:55 AM)HiddenDragon Wrote:  1. The simple fact that the P-5 is autonomous and the G-5 isn't already tells you the two aren't playing at the same level.

2. The gap will never close between the P5 and G5 and will only continue to get wider.

The G-5 is on the verge of becoming extinct and we can continue to come up with excuses as to why the G-5 should be content with hanging on the coattails of the P-5. Or G-5 programs can find a solution or become creative and finding other streams of revenue to remain somewhat relevant.

And I'm not advocating that the G-5 just totally disassociate itself from the P-5, it just can't be so dependent on them that they determine your survival. There is a place for the G-5 but where it currently lies isn't viable anymore.

Most P5 schools were losing money on sports in 2009 before the last round of contracts. There's no guarantee that money train continues indefinitely. I think they are probably nervous (and ESPN even more so) that if they don't play, the public will get out of the sports viewing habit.

With the big new contracts, virtually all the P5 schools are in the black and spending has massively increased with P5 and G5.
(This post was last modified: 08-03-2020 10:24 AM by bullet.)
08-03-2020 10:23 AM
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