(07-30-2020 12:00 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote: (07-30-2020 11:57 AM)WKUYG Wrote: (07-30-2020 11:44 AM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote: (07-30-2020 11:03 AM)WKUYG Wrote: (07-30-2020 10:52 AM)Seminowl Wrote: My friends father and grandfather passed away after attending one funeral. Luckily their mother survived. 12 games with hundreds or maybe thousands of people in attendance can cause a lot of damage. There has to be a lapse of moral judgement if you think a football game is worth the lives of players and their family members.
But that isnt what you said so let me quote it again
Quote:What happens if these football players come in close proximity to someone who is elderly, has diabetes, is obese, has another chronic illness, or smokes cigarettes. All of those people are at risk. When these athletes end up infecting their parents and grandparents for your entertainment I’m sure you won’t bat an eye.
Nothing about people sitting in the stands. But lets go there and let me ask you the same question....
A lot of people die each and every year with the flu yet you haven't said one word about the old people who might die because fans were in the stands. Why is that?
What you are asking is an extremely complicated question/issue that you are attempting to apply a generalized argument toward. So, let's first acknowledge Influenza is a known risk. We know how it transmits, how it affects people, and how it is treated. We don't yet know much about long term effects from COVID nor the ideal treatment options. Though that's a factor it doesn't necessarily answer your question. The answer to your question isn't as linear as the question implies. So, let's start with the vaccine. Some studies suggest that the vaccine does not reduce mortality from influenza in the elderly; however, each grey haired person has a choice to receive the vaccine. A choice that doesn't currently exist with COVID. This year, let's say Grandpa George gets the vaccine and it does not make one damn bit difference for him as the flu gets him. But a couple of years prior the vaccine was a good match and very effective for the elderly and the difference between him living two extra years ago and being taken from us then. So, potentially in this hypothetical you got an extra two years with Grandpa and he got two extra years with all the grandkids that wouldn't have happened otherwise. What Granpa George really would have liked to have seen was the community to all have gotten their flu shot, so that he can go to the games and not have to worry as much about someone giving him the flu.
Moreover, your premise or at least the way you are characterizing this and insinuating that only old people have severe illness or die. Although they are the higher at risk category it's simply not an accurate depiction that people in their 30s and 40s can not only be severely impacted by COVID it can kill. Which brings me back to the vaccine option. There is currently no vaccine option that helps to reduce illness. Additionally, we still don't have a viable treatment option for COVID like with do with the flu in Oseltamivir (e.g. Tamiflu), which not only helps lessen the burden on the healthcare system and decrease time in illness and transmission phase it is able to reduce mortality as well. There are so many people in their 30s/40s that even if they didn't die can't function. Huge burden on the health system. We have a 40 year old friend who spent three weeks in ICU. No underlying conditions. Thirty days later she still is struggling to get the stairs in her house, because she struggles to breathe. Had the country done what it was supposed to do and limit transmission rather than turning it into a political football maybe she never catches it in the first place. And again we don't know what they long term impacts are. How it's affected her lung capacity or heart for life. Perhaps because of COVID she dies at 58 now instead of 78. We simply don't know that yet, but what we are now starting to understand is that this virus is systemic. People have had body parts amputated because of it. It's not just an upper respiratory illness. It attacks the body in really strange and different ways for those that aren't lucky enough to only get away with the mild symptoms.
Further, flu season doesn't really get serious until football is winding down. The debate perhaps a bit more functional with basketball since a) it's indoors and b) community spread is at its highest in Jan/Feb). So again, Grandpa George's risk going to a football game in Sept/Oct/Nov is damn near zero. But with COVID spreading efficiently and consistently even in the hottest months of the year he has no such luxury. With that being said, if I'm Grandpa George then perhaps I seriously consider reducing any time spent at an indoor public event during the worst months of the flu season. So, again there's a little bit of choice here that doesn't exist in the same context as COVID. The coronavirus is not the flu and attempting compare them as the same fruit is disingenuous at best.
I could probably go on for a few more paragraphs, but hopefully I have honestly and genuinely answer your question, which I tried to do so with the best of my ability.
CDC: 2,400 flu-related deaths occurred from Oct. 1, 2019, to Nov. 30, 2019. Lot of Grandpa George's in that 2400 so at what number of deaths are you will to live with?
As far as Grandpa George dying from COVID after going to a football game. He made that choice to go and in life we all make personal decisions and weight the odds of how those decisions will affect our life....
Grandpa George can fall in the tub and break his hip and die. Yet he still takes a bath or shower.
Quote:According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention:
One in four Americans aged 65+ falls each year.
Every 11 seconds, an older adult is treated in the emergency room for a fall; every 19 minutes, an older adult dies from a fall.
Falls are the leading cause of fatal injury and the most common cause of nonfatal trauma-related hospital admissions among older adults.
Falls result in more than 2.8 million injuries treated in emergency departments annually, including over 800,000 hospitalizations and more than 27,000 deaths.
At some point just like everything else with life...PERSONAL DECISIONS matter and we all make 100s each and every day. And as a country we dont make other people responsible for our decisions to try and make Grandpa George 100% safe
Think whatever you want. But I find your bath analogy asinine.
Sorry, if I go to the store because I need bread and you make me sick because you decided to go to a house party with 30 others last weekend during a global pandemic and/or don't wear a mask in the store and I die from COVID and leave my two kids behind that wasn't "my choice." And that's what you're missing here. Like I said think what you want.
Stay on topic because nowhere in this thread were we talking about going in a store or wearing a mask.
I asked the question how a 18-22 year old playing a football game for 40 minutes (I guess linemen are in the game that long) is going to kill Grandpa George? How is he any safer if the game isnt played?
As far as him being at the game, no one is forcing Grandpa George to watch live. Only Grandpa George is making that choice. The same choice he makes everytime he does something that is dangerous to old people...like taking a bath and falling.
So now we come to the 18-22 year old bring it home to Grandpa George and killing him.
Lets look at the odds of that....even if 70 year old Grandpa George gets the virus from Little Johnny. He has a 92 to 98% chance of surviving at that age. Depending on what else is wrong with him. GREAT ODDS. But the odds are even lower of Grandpa George catching this virus because Little Johnny played a football game...
I dont know the % but a guess is that 90+% of those playing on Saturday will not be home in 14 to 21 days and around Grandpa George. Then you take the odds of Johnny actually catching it from the football game...has to be 99% chance he wont.
Then you take the odds of Grandpa George actually catching it if he's around Little Johnny. Till you show me another fact I will go with 16.3% (the CDC quotes the study) of those living in the same home. Most likely Little Johnny will spend less than 30 minutes with Grandpa George and maybe a couple hours with other family...
out of the 10% of football players that actually go home.
So when you take all of that in Grandpa George has a lot higher chance of touching something in a store and catching this. Yet you still want Grandpa George to go to the store.....
as long as everyone is wearing a mask
It's really silly to think the odds of a football player catching this virus from the 40 minutes he's playing a football game and not the rest of the week when he's around 100s of people that are not being tested or at the very least temperature taken.
Its even sillier to think they are then going to give it to Grandpa George. Grandpa George has a lot higher chance of catching the flu and dying or falling down in the tube and dying. Need to put Grandpa George in a asst living home...
cant do that 50 to 60% of all deaths come from there
