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What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #121
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(07-30-2020 07:30 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(07-30-2020 04:01 PM)orangefan Wrote:  
(07-30-2020 12:35 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  The autobid rules made "forming a new conference" a non-starter, although it was kicked around by various ADs or presidents.

I believe a new conference can satisfied the "continuity" requirement to obtain an automatic NCAA bid if it has seven members that have played together in the same conference for eight years under NCAA Bylaws 20.02.5.4.

No, they changed the rule in 2011 when it was clear that MWC raids would make the WAC unable to meet the continuity rules. Since 2011, "continuity" has been a thing that conferences have, not a thing that schools have.

We've been 'round this mulberry bush.

https://csnbbs.com/thread-768543.html

Quote:Interestingly, this is the exact number of members and years together that the C7 had when it withdrew from the Big East.

There doesn't seem to have been any opposition to the Big East getting an autobid, but by the rules at the time, we didn't qualify.

Quote:UCF, UH, SMU, Memphis, Tulane, ECU and Tulsa could have qualified under this provision if they all left CUSA at the same time in 2013 or 2014.

Except the provision wasn't in force any more, and they left CUSA in two waves.

I think that the other conferences would have approved an autobid if UConn and UC dissolved the Big East Football Conference, leaving the incoming schools stranded. Not because of the rules, but because they'd have had a sympathetic case.

While I don't dismiss the possibility that the C7/New Big East received a waiver from the NCAA to receive an autobid, I don't recall ever reading that they did and can't find anything on the internet discussing such a waiver. However, it appears that the Atlantic Sun is attempting to expand and then split into two conferences, both with automatic bids, using the precise "8 for 7" approach which I believe the C7/New Big East used to create a new autobid conference.
https://asunsports.org/general/2019-20/r...0122lh6utq

Quote:>> What defines a "multisport conference member" of the NCAA (such as the ASUN) as opposed to just a "conference member" (such as the CCSA Swimming and Diving Conference)?
- There are clearly defined criteria that separate the status of a conference member vs a "multisport" conference member (20.02.5 Multisport Conference). The key elements are having a minimum of seven active members who play men's and women's basketball and have played the required minimum number of sports (six men's sports & six women's sports) together for the previous eight years. Meeting the required membership and sponsored sports for eight consecutive years is termed "continuity."

I do agree that the "CUSA 7" left in two waves, and therefore would not have qualified. I thought I prefaced my statement with the condition that they would have needed to leave together.
(This post was last modified: 08-01-2020 07:16 AM by orangefan.)
08-01-2020 07:11 AM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #122
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
This report from December 13, 2012 by Pete Thamel of Sports Illustrated is long but very interesting. Perhaps he or his source misunderstood the NCAA rules at the time, but he suggests that the Catholic 7 may have been able to keep the NCAA automatic bid while the incoming and left-behind schools would have had to apply for the waiver.

Quote:What about the other assets?

If the seven schools leave, it's likely that they'll be able to take the league's automatic qualification with them. NCAA rules state that a baseline for an automatic bid in the NCAA tournament is a collection of seven schools that have been playing together for five or more years.

The seven Catholic schools have that and will be able to take a bid with them. A source said that the NCAA, because of the volatility in the landscape, would strongly consider granting the hodgepodge leftover Big East schools a waiver for an automatic bid. (And there would be decent basketball with UConn, Cincinnati and Memphis).

https://www.si.com/college/2012/12/13/bi...basketball

It is a long article but very interesting. It is really critical of Aresco at that time for his lack of communication. The C7 were frustrated about the addition of Tulane, and the football schools were perturbed about a meeting he had with the C7 presidents, which they found about from the media. I suppose Aresco has since redeemed himself in the eyes of the schools now in the American because I haven't read any criticism of him by those parties since then. Plus they extended his contract.
08-01-2020 08:28 AM
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panite Offline
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Post: #123
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(08-01-2020 08:28 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  This report from December 13, 2012 by Pete Thamel of Sports Illustrated is long but very interesting. Perhaps he or his source misunderstood the NCAA rules at the time, but he suggests that the Catholic 7 may have been able to keep the NCAA automatic bid while the incoming and left-behind schools would have had to apply for the waiver.

Quote:What about the other assets?

If the seven schools leave, it's likely that they'll be able to take the league's automatic qualification with them. NCAA rules state that a baseline for an automatic bid in the NCAA tournament is a collection of seven schools that have been playing together for five or more years.

The seven Catholic schools have that and will be able to take a bid with them. A source said that the NCAA, because of the volatility in the landscape, would strongly consider granting the hodgepodge leftover Big East schools a waiver for an automatic bid. (And there would be decent basketball with UConn, Cincinnati and Memphis).

https://www.si.com/college/2012/12/13/bi...basketball

It is a long article but very interesting. It is really critical of Aresco at that time for his lack of communication. The C7 were frustrated about the addition of Tulane, and the football schools were perturbed about a meeting he had with the C7 presidents, which they found about from the media. I suppose Aresco has since redeemed himself in the eyes of the schools now in the American because I haven't read any criticism of him by those parties since then. Plus they extended his contract.

Why would the C7 be frustrated about the addition of Tulane. They voted Tulane into the conference with one foot already out the door. The were negotiating with Fox behind the FB school's back and behind Aresco's back at that time. 07-coffee3
08-01-2020 09:14 AM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #124
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(08-01-2020 09:14 AM)panite Wrote:  
(08-01-2020 08:28 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  This report from December 13, 2012 by Pete Thamel of Sports Illustrated is long but very interesting. Perhaps he or his source misunderstood the NCAA rules at the time, but he suggests that the Catholic 7 may have been able to keep the NCAA automatic bid while the incoming and left-behind schools would have had to apply for the waiver.

Quote:What about the other assets?

If the seven schools leave, it's likely that they'll be able to take the league's automatic qualification with them. NCAA rules state that a baseline for an automatic bid in the NCAA tournament is a collection of seven schools that have been playing together for five or more years.

The seven Catholic schools have that and will be able to take a bid with them. A source said that the NCAA, because of the volatility in the landscape, would strongly consider granting the hodgepodge leftover Big East schools a waiver for an automatic bid. (And there would be decent basketball with UConn, Cincinnati and Memphis).

https://www.si.com/college/2012/12/13/bi...basketball

It is a long article but very interesting. It is really critical of Aresco at that time for his lack of communication. The C7 were frustrated about the addition of Tulane, and the football schools were perturbed about a meeting he had with the C7 presidents, which they found about from the media. I suppose Aresco has since redeemed himself in the eyes of the schools now in the American because I haven't read any criticism of him by those parties since then. Plus they extended his contract.

Why would the C7 be frustrated about the addition of Tulane. They voted Tulane into the conference with one foot already out the door. The were negotiating with Fox behind the FB school's back and behind Aresco's back at that time. 07-coffee3

From the article:
Quote:The role that Aresco has played in this varies on who you talk to. Some view him as a guy in an untenable situation. Others say his lack of communication and reluctance to share information has driven a wedge in the league.

The Big East hired Aresco in August with designs on getting the most out of its latest television deal in the wake of a flurry of departures. Aresco's leadership is being questioned by some, especially with the lack of membership input regarding the addition of Tulane.

"It can't be overlooked that the silence internally has driven this and closed the door on a lot of things that needed to happen," said a source.

From what I've read elsewhere, Tulane was voted in by Big East presidents, but Aresco didn't get input from the AD's.
08-01-2020 09:33 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #125
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(08-01-2020 08:28 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  This report from December 13, 2012 by Pete Thamel of Sports Illustrated is long but very interesting. Perhaps he or his source misunderstood the NCAA rules at the time, but he suggests that the Catholic 7 may have been able to keep the NCAA automatic bid while the incoming and left-behind schools would have had to apply for the waiver.

Quote:What about the other assets?

If the seven schools leave, it's likely that they'll be able to take the league's automatic qualification with them. NCAA rules state that a baseline for an automatic bid in the NCAA tournament is a collection of seven schools that have been playing together for five or more years.

The seven Catholic schools have that and will be able to take a bid with them. A source said that the NCAA, because of the volatility in the landscape, would strongly consider granting the hodgepodge leftover Big East schools a waiver for an automatic bid. (And there would be decent basketball with UConn, Cincinnati and Memphis).

https://www.si.com/college/2012/12/13/bi...basketball

It is a long article but very interesting. It is really critical of Aresco at that time for his lack of communication. The C7 were frustrated about the addition of Tulane, and the football schools were perturbed about a meeting he had with the C7 presidents, which they found about from the media. I suppose Aresco has since redeemed himself in the eyes of the schools now in the American because I haven't read any criticism of him by those parties since then. Plus they extended his contract.

No, keeping the current bid was never an option for the C7---primarily because they had to break away in order to independently accept the FOX offer. FOX was only willing to offer that much if they didnt have to deal with the ESPN right to match.
(This post was last modified: 08-01-2020 10:55 AM by Attackcoog.)
08-01-2020 10:54 AM
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panite Offline
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Post: #126
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(08-01-2020 09:33 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(08-01-2020 09:14 AM)panite Wrote:  
(08-01-2020 08:28 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  This report from December 13, 2012 by Pete Thamel of Sports Illustrated is long but very interesting. Perhaps he or his source misunderstood the NCAA rules at the time, but he suggests that the Catholic 7 may have been able to keep the NCAA automatic bid while the incoming and left-behind schools would have had to apply for the waiver.

Quote:What about the other assets?

If the seven schools leave, it's likely that they'll be able to take the league's automatic qualification with them. NCAA rules state that a baseline for an automatic bid in the NCAA tournament is a collection of seven schools that have been playing together for five or more years.

The seven Catholic schools have that and will be able to take a bid with them. A source said that the NCAA, because of the volatility in the landscape, would strongly consider granting the hodgepodge leftover Big East schools a waiver for an automatic bid. (And there would be decent basketball with UConn, Cincinnati and Memphis).

https://www.si.com/college/2012/12/13/bi...basketball

It is a long article but very interesting. It is really critical of Aresco at that time for his lack of communication. The C7 were frustrated about the addition of Tulane, and the football schools were perturbed about a meeting he had with the C7 presidents, which they found about from the media. I suppose Aresco has since redeemed himself in the eyes of the schools now in the American because I haven't read any criticism of him by those parties since then. Plus they extended his contract.

Why would the C7 be frustrated about the addition of Tulane. They voted Tulane into the conference with one foot already out the door. The were negotiating with Fox behind the FB school's back and behind Aresco's back at that time. 07-coffee3

From the article:
Quote:The role that Aresco has played in this varies on who you talk to. Some view him as a guy in an untenable situation. Others say his lack of communication and reluctance to share information has driven a wedge in the league.

The Big East hired Aresco in August with designs on getting the most out of its latest television deal in the wake of a flurry of departures. Aresco's leadership is being questioned by some, especially with the lack of membership input regarding the addition of Tulane.

"It can't be overlooked that the silence internally has driven this and closed the door on a lot of things that needed to happen," said a source.

From what I've read elsewhere, Tulane was voted in by Big East presidents, but Aresco didn't get input from the AD's.

The presidents do the conference voting not the AD's so their opinions don't matter anyway. Not saying the presidents wouldn't give their AD's an ear, but in the end its is the president's vote and opinion that counts when the conference votes on league matters including expansion. 04-cheers
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #127
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(08-01-2020 10:54 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(08-01-2020 08:28 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  This report from December 13, 2012 by Pete Thamel of Sports Illustrated is long but very interesting. Perhaps he or his source misunderstood the NCAA rules at the time, but he suggests that the Catholic 7 may have been able to keep the NCAA automatic bid while the incoming and left-behind schools would have had to apply for the waiver.

Quote:What about the other assets?

If the seven schools leave, it's likely that they'll be able to take the league's automatic qualification with them. NCAA rules state that a baseline for an automatic bid in the NCAA tournament is a collection of seven schools that have been playing together for five or more years.

The seven Catholic schools have that and will be able to take a bid with them. A source said that the NCAA, because of the volatility in the landscape, would strongly consider granting the hodgepodge leftover Big East schools a waiver for an automatic bid. (And there would be decent basketball with UConn, Cincinnati and Memphis).

https://www.si.com/college/2012/12/13/bi...basketball

It is a long article but very interesting. It is really critical of Aresco at that time for his lack of communication. The C7 were frustrated about the addition of Tulane, and the football schools were perturbed about a meeting he had with the C7 presidents, which they found about from the media. I suppose Aresco has since redeemed himself in the eyes of the schools now in the American because I haven't read any criticism of him by those parties since then. Plus they extended his contract.

No, keeping the current bid was never an option for the C7---primarily because they had to break away in order to independently accept the FOX offer. FOX was only willing to offer that much if they didnt have to deal with the ESPN right to match.

I'm sure you're right. I was just sharing the article because I had never read before the idea that the autobid could have gone to the C7 rather than the soon-to-be AAC. Thamel's source must have been wrong.

That said, Andy Katz's source must have been wrong, too.

Quote:The new number of at-large berths is down to 36 with the split of the Big East and the American Athletic Conference, meaning that there are now 32 automatic qualifiers. But the committee was informed that, technically, the Big East's automatic bid went with the Big East, and the American must get its AQ bid formally approved by the Division I sports-management cabinet, according to a source. But that shouldn't be an issue.

https://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketb...idney-lowe

Again, the sources are probably wrong. In the end, it doesn't really matter which league got the waiver. Both leagues have automatic bids.

EDIT: I did a pretty thorough search, and I couldn't find anything other than quotes from message boards that states that the AAC inherited the old Big East's automatic NCAA bid while the new Big East had to apply for a waiver for a new one. I only found the two articles listed above that listed the opposite, that the new Big East inherited the old Big East's automatic bid. Now, of course, I did find plenty of sources stating that the AAC retained the old Big East's AQ to the BCS, but nothing suggesting the NCAA bid went to the AAC.

If there are non-message board sources that prove me otherwise, I have no problem acknowledging them. I had always assumed the AAC inherited the old Big East's bid until doing a search on it.
(This post was last modified: 08-01-2020 01:32 PM by Michael in Raleigh.)
08-01-2020 12:08 PM
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Post: #128
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(08-01-2020 11:02 AM)panite Wrote:  The presidents do the conference voting not the AD's so their opinions don't matter anyway. Not saying the presidents wouldn't give their AD's an ear, but in the end its is the president's vote and opinion that counts when the conference votes on league matters including expansion. 04-cheers

It matters when the presidents trust the commissioner they hired and rubber-stamp his decision, then get home and their ADs flip out and explain the downsides of what the commissioner just did. And then the presidents start asking questions and taking a more active role.
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johnbragg Online
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RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(08-01-2020 12:08 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(08-01-2020 10:54 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(08-01-2020 08:28 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  This report from December 13, 2012 by Pete Thamel of Sports Illustrated is long but very interesting. Perhaps he or his source misunderstood the NCAA rules at the time, but he suggests that the Catholic 7 may have been able to keep the NCAA automatic bid while the incoming and left-behind schools would have had to apply for the waiver.

Quote:What about the other assets?

If the seven schools leave, it's likely that they'll be able to take the league's automatic qualification with them. NCAA rules state that a baseline for an automatic bid in the NCAA tournament is a collection of seven schools that have been playing together for five or more years.

The seven Catholic schools have that and will be able to take a bid with them. A source said that the NCAA, because of the volatility in the landscape, would strongly consider granting the hodgepodge leftover Big East schools a waiver for an automatic bid. (And there would be decent basketball with UConn, Cincinnati and Memphis).

https://www.si.com/college/2012/12/13/bi...basketball

It is a long article but very interesting. It is really critical of Aresco at that time for his lack of communication. The C7 were frustrated about the addition of Tulane, and the football schools were perturbed about a meeting he had with the C7 presidents, which they found about from the media. I suppose Aresco has since redeemed himself in the eyes of the schools now in the American because I haven't read any criticism of him by those parties since then. Plus they extended his contract.

No, keeping the current bid was never an option for the C7---primarily because they had to break away in order to independently accept the FOX offer. FOX was only willing to offer that much if they didnt have to deal with the ESPN right to match.

I'm sure you're right. I was just sharing the article because I had never read before the idea that the autobid could have gone to the C7 rather than the soon-to-be AAC. Thamel's source must have been wrong.

That said, Andy Katz's source must have been wrong, too.

Journalists have jobs to do. They're not as tuned in to the rules as message-board obsessives. 03-wink

Quote:
Quote:The new number of at-large berths is down to 36 with the split of the Big East and the American Athletic Conference, meaning that there are now 32 automatic qualifiers. But the committee was informed that, technically, the Big East's automatic bid went with the Big East, and the American must get its AQ bid formally approved by the Division I sports-management cabinet, according to a source. But that shouldn't be an issue.

https://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketb...idney-lowe

Again, the sources are probably wrong. In the end, it doesn't really matter which league got the waiver. Both leagues have automatic bids.

EDIT: I did a pretty thorough search, and I couldn't find anything other than quotes from message boards that states that the AAC inherited the old Big East's automatic NCAA bid while the new Big East had to apply for a waiver for a new one. I only found the two articles listed above that listed the opposite, that the new Big East inherited the old Big East's automatic bid. Now, of course, I did find plenty of sources stating that the AAC retained the old Big East's AQ to the BCS, but nothing suggesting the NCAA bid went to the AAC.

If there are non-message board sources that prove me otherwise, I have no problem acknowledging them. I had always assumed the AAC inherited the old Big East's bid until doing a search on it.

That's what the NCAA bylaws indicate.

On the other hand, in reality the NCAA does what The Powers That Be darn well please, and TPTB were all in agreement that the "C7" and the "Aresco League" both get autobids.
(This post was last modified: 08-01-2020 11:29 PM by johnbragg.)
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Post: #130
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
Let me just say one thing. As I read through this thread people keep saying the 3 FB schools SOLD the Big East name to the C7. They in fact did not. During the negotiations of how to handle the split the two sides negotiated that the C7 would get the name, BBall history and MSG contract and the 3 FB schools would get all the exit fees collected and that all the NCAA credits would go with the schools who earned them and the FB schools would keep those from the FB members who left. It wasn't a sale, it was more like a divorce and splitting the assets.
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panite Offline
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RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(Yesterday 05:06 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Let me just say one thing. As I read through this thread people keep saying the 3 FB schools SOLD the Big East name to the C7. They in fact did not. During the negotiations of how to handle the split the two sides negotiated that the C7 would get the name, BBall history and MSG contract and the 3 FB schools would get all the exit fees collected and that all the NCAA credits would go with the schools who earned them and the FB schools would keep those from the FB members who left. It wasn't a sale, it was more like a divorce and splitting the assets.

And in the divorce the C7 got the better deal with the conference name, the history and the MSG contract. They probably even got the better deal on the BB credits too. 07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: Yesterday 06:48 AM by panite.)
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #132
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(Yesterday 06:46 AM)panite Wrote:  
(Yesterday 05:06 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Let me just say one thing. As I read through this thread people keep saying the 3 FB schools SOLD the Big East name to the C7. They in fact did not. During the negotiations of how to handle the split the two sides negotiated that the C7 would get the name, BBall history and MSG contract and the 3 FB schools would get all the exit fees collected and that all the NCAA credits would go with the schools who earned them and the FB schools would keep those from the FB members who left. It wasn't a sale, it was more like a divorce and splitting the assets.

And in the divorce the C7 got the better deal with the conference name, the history and the MSG contract. They probably even got the better deal on the BB credits too. 07-coffee3

Not on the BB credits. The C7 was generally weaker than the FBS schools were in the years leading up to the split. Syracuse, Pitt, Notre Dame, Louisville, WVU, Cincinnati, and UConn were regular participants in the NCAA tournament, some of them making very deep runs, and the AAC (particularly Cincinnati, UConn, and USF) kept all those credits. The C7 only inherited their own credits, and their only regular NCAA participants were Georgetown, Marquette, and Villanova. DePaul, Providence, St. John's, and Seton Hall were all pretty down until the split.

Keep in mind, also, that Butler, Xavier, and Creighton's units were left behind in their former leagues, too.
(This post was last modified: Yesterday 07:14 AM by Michael in Raleigh.)
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #133
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(Yesterday 07:12 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(Yesterday 06:46 AM)panite Wrote:  
(Yesterday 05:06 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Let me just say one thing. As I read through this thread people keep saying the 3 FB schools SOLD the Big East name to the C7. They in fact did not. During the negotiations of how to handle the split the two sides negotiated that the C7 would get the name, BBall history and MSG contract and the 3 FB schools would get all the exit fees collected and that all the NCAA credits would go with the schools who earned them and the FB schools would keep those from the FB members who left. It wasn't a sale, it was more like a divorce and splitting the assets.

And in the divorce the C7 got the better deal with the conference name, the history and the MSG contract. They probably even got the better deal on the BB credits too. 07-coffee3

Not on the BB credits. The C7 was generally weaker than the FBS schools were in the years leading up to the split. Syracuse, Pitt, Notre Dame, Louisville, WVU, Cincinnati, and UConn were regular participants in the NCAA tournament, some of them making very deep runs, and the AAC (particularly Cincinnati, UConn, and USF) kept all those credits. The C7 only inherited their own credits, and their only regular NCAA participants were Georgetown, Marquette, and Villanova. DePaul, Providence, St. John's, and Seton Hall were all pretty down until the split.

Keep in mind, also, that Butler, Xavier, and Creighton's units were left behind in their former leagues, too.

Georgetown and Villanova had made a Final Four (2007 and 2009, respectively) in the years preceeding the split, and Marquette was coming off consecutive Sweet 16s (2011 and 2012) and an Elite Eight (2013).

They had a number of units for themselves going into the split.
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Post: #134
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(Yesterday 05:06 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Let me just say one thing. As I read through this thread people keep saying the 3 FB schools SOLD the Big East name to the C7. They in fact did not. During the negotiations of how to handle the split the two sides negotiated that the C7 would get the name, BBall history and MSG contract and the 3 FB schools would get all the exit fees collected and that all the NCAA credits would go with the schools who earned them and the FB schools would keep those from the FB members who left. It wasn't a sale, it was more like a divorce and splitting the assets.

I remember some of the best threads on here were during the divorce negotiations.

Reading the posts about how schools like UCF, Memphis, Houston, Tulane and ECU were more entitled to the Big East name than the C7 continue to make me chuckle. Good times.
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #135
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(Yesterday 08:13 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(Yesterday 07:12 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(Yesterday 06:46 AM)panite Wrote:  
(Yesterday 05:06 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Let me just say one thing. As I read through this thread people keep saying the 3 FB schools SOLD the Big East name to the C7. They in fact did not. During the negotiations of how to handle the split the two sides negotiated that the C7 would get the name, BBall history and MSG contract and the 3 FB schools would get all the exit fees collected and that all the NCAA credits would go with the schools who earned them and the FB schools would keep those from the FB members who left. It wasn't a sale, it was more like a divorce and splitting the assets.

And in the divorce the C7 got the better deal with the conference name, the history and the MSG contract. They probably even got the better deal on the BB credits too. 07-coffee3

Not on the BB credits. The C7 was generally weaker than the FBS schools were in the years leading up to the split. Syracuse, Pitt, Notre Dame, Louisville, WVU, Cincinnati, and UConn were regular participants in the NCAA tournament, some of them making very deep runs, and the AAC (particularly Cincinnati, UConn, and USF) kept all those credits. The C7 only inherited their own credits, and their only regular NCAA participants were Georgetown, Marquette, and Villanova. DePaul, Providence, St. John's, and Seton Hall were all pretty down until the split.

Keep in mind, also, that Butler, Xavier, and Creighton's units were left behind in their former leagues, too.

Georgetown and Villanova had made a Final Four (2007 and 2009, respectively) in the years preceeding the split, and Marquette was coming off consecutive Sweet 16s (2011 and 2012) and an Elite Eight (2013).

They had a number of units for themselves going into the split.

Yes. Those three were quite solid. But the AAC inherited more units because they had all the outgoing members' units as well as UConn and Cincinnati's. Those units included national championship runs by UConn and Louisville.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm in the camp that the Big East name and history and the MSG tournament went to the right parties. I'm a fan of the Big East for taking their destiny into their own control and being rewarded with success.
Yesterday 08:32 AM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #136
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(Yesterday 06:46 AM)panite Wrote:  
(Yesterday 05:06 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Let me just say one thing. As I read through this thread people keep saying the 3 FB schools SOLD the Big East name to the C7. They in fact did not. During the negotiations of how to handle the split the two sides negotiated that the C7 would get the name, BBall history and MSG contract and the 3 FB schools would get all the exit fees collected and that all the NCAA credits would go with the schools who earned them and the FB schools would keep those from the FB members who left. It wasn't a sale, it was more like a divorce and splitting the assets.

And in the divorce the C7 got the better deal with the conference name, the history and the MSG contract. They probably even got the better deal on the BB credits too. 07-coffee3

Under the agreement between the basketball and football schools that came out of 2003-2005 realignment, the basketball schools had the right to take their NCAA Tournament Shares in a split between the basketball and FBS schools. Under NCAA rules, these shares stay with the conference when schools withdraws. However, as part of the consideration for the C7 to acquire the Big East name and contract with Madison Square Garden, the C7 gave these shares up, as well as any claims related to exit fees and entrance fees.
Yesterday 11:55 AM
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bullet Offline
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Post: #137
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(Yesterday 11:55 AM)orangefan Wrote:  
(Yesterday 06:46 AM)panite Wrote:  
(Yesterday 05:06 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Let me just say one thing. As I read through this thread people keep saying the 3 FB schools SOLD the Big East name to the C7. They in fact did not. During the negotiations of how to handle the split the two sides negotiated that the C7 would get the name, BBall history and MSG contract and the 3 FB schools would get all the exit fees collected and that all the NCAA credits would go with the schools who earned them and the FB schools would keep those from the FB members who left. It wasn't a sale, it was more like a divorce and splitting the assets.

And in the divorce the C7 got the better deal with the conference name, the history and the MSG contract. They probably even got the better deal on the BB credits too. 07-coffee3

Under the agreement between the basketball and football schools that came out of 2003-2005 realignment, the basketball schools had the right to take their NCAA Tournament Shares in a split between the basketball and FBS schools. Under NCAA rules, these shares stay with the conference when schools withdraws. However, as part of the consideration for the C7 to acquire the Big East name and contract with Madison Square Garden, the C7 gave these shares up, as well as any claims related to exit fees and entrance fees.

Good. I thought I was the only one remembering it going that way.
Yesterday 01:17 PM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #138
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(Yesterday 11:55 AM)orangefan Wrote:  Under the agreement between the basketball and football schools that came out of 2003-2005 realignment, the basketball schools had the right to take their NCAA Tournament Shares in a split between the basketball and FBS schools. Under NCAA rules, these shares stay with the conference when schools withdraws. However, as part of the consideration for the C7 to acquire the Big East name and contract with Madison Square Garden, the C7 gave these shares up, as well as any claims related to exit fees and entrance fees.

According to the following article, the Catholic 7 did split up some money, whether it was their own tournament credits or something else.

Quote:The meat of the negotiations involve the split of a Big East cash reserve that mainly consists of over $100 million from exit fees from other schools. It also involves divvying up shares from the NCAA Tournament earnings and other reserve funds.

Cincinnati, South Florida and Connecticut will be the big winners getting anywhere from $15 million to $20 million each. Those teams won’t be making the jump with the Catholic Seven, obviously.

The seven soon-to-be former Big East schools will take in $3 million to $5 million each. New schools to the conference that won’t include the Catholic Seven will split an additional $10 million.

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/...rney-site/
Yesterday 07:23 PM
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Post: #139
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
When I say "sold," I mean it only in the vein of "We have something you want..." (namely the "Big East Brand"), because the "Big East" title legally remained with the Conference, and the other entity agreed to compensate the Conference for the name. Yes, it was a "Divorce" style negotiation...and YES, it stayed largely amicable, but it was more akin to an actual transaction than the "division of assets" that took place throughout the rest of the separation.

For example, the Conference Office space had been remodeled and a long-term lease signed on the office space. Neither entity really wanted it; it made NO sense for the nascent American to have their offices in Providence, and the soon-to-be Big East had already decided to relocate their offices somewhere in a bigger (and more central) metropolitan area. So it was decided to parcel off the Office Lease to the (now) American Conference...who honored the lease...while other assets went to the (now) Big East.

The name "Big East" is a little more contentious...especially among some AAC members. I really do think we (the Conference) made the best decision to allow the "Big East" name to transfer to the (now) BE. That was one of the first decisions the Conference made; honestly, IMO, it would have been ridiculous to have kept the BE name with only one original, remaining member...like going to see ".38 Special" with only one remaining member from the 1980's or "Styx" when it is only Dennis DeYoung. (Obviously, at least one UCF fan disagrees with me.) After the split and the decision to let the name pass onto the new Conference, people also forget the period where the AAC shopped around potential Conference names. Of course, "The American" won...not all of us liked that choice at the time...and the rest is history.

But yeah...it wasn't a "sell-out" in terms of "selling" the name outright. It was part of the severance ("Divorce") negotiations...and we (the AAC) got compensated for it.
Yesterday 09:04 PM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #140
RE: What if: Big East signs new contract w/ ESPN in 2011
(Yesterday 09:04 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  When I say "sold," I mean it only in the vein of "We have something you want..." (namely the "Big East Brand"), because the "Big East" title legally remained with the Conference, and the other entity agreed to compensate the Conference for the name. Yes, it was a "Divorce" style negotiation...and YES, it stayed largely amicable, but it was more akin to an actual transaction than the "division of assets" that took place throughout the rest of the separation.

For example, the Conference Office space had been remodeled and a long-term lease signed on the office space. Neither entity really wanted it; it made NO sense for the nascent American to have their offices in Providence, and the soon-to-be Big East had already decided to relocate their offices somewhere in a bigger (and more central) metropolitan area. So it was decided to parcel off the Office Lease to the (now) American Conference...who honored the lease...while other assets went to the (now) Big East.

The name "Big East" is a little more contentious...especially among some AAC members. I really do think we (the Conference) made the best decision to allow the "Big East" name to transfer to the (now) BE. That was one of the first decisions the Conference made; honestly, IMO, it would have been ridiculous to have kept the BE name with only one original, remaining member...like going to see ".38 Special" with only one remaining member from the 1980's or "Styx" when it is only Dennis DeYoung. (Obviously, at least one UCF fan disagrees with me.) After the split and the decision to let the name pass onto the new Conference, people also forget the period where the AAC shopped around potential Conference names. Of course, "The American" won...not all of us liked that choice at the time...and the rest is history.

But yeah...it wasn't a "sell-out" in terms of "selling" the name outright. It was part of the severance ("Divorce") negotiations...and we (the AAC) got compensated for it.

Who could forget the America 12?
Yesterday 10:03 PM
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