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Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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MyBB Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
Since going to geographic divisions, the West has gone winless. (Wisconsin had to Ws in the Leaders and Legends but one of those comes with an asterisk because they finished 3rd in that division behind an undefeated Ohio St and a Penn St team facing post season bans.)

Unless the Big Ten can bring I a dominant West team like Oklahoma I don’t think this is sustainable.

I think the Big Ten should consider going back to a zipper with 7 protected crossovers:

Liberty: Ohio St, Michigan, Rutgers, Indiana, Illinois, Minnesota, Iowa

Freedom: Penn St, Michigan St, Maryland, Purdue, Northwestern, Wisconsin, Nebraska



Crossovers:

Ohio St vs Penn St
Michigan vs Michigan St
Rutgers vs Maryland
Indiana vs Purdue
Illinois vs Northwestern
Minnesota vs Wisconsin
Iowa vs Nebraska

The 7 strongest members (Ohio St, Mich, Mich St, Penn St, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Nebraska) are divided 3-4 with the most dominant of the past 2 decades, Ohio St, in the group of 3.

The 9 game schedule allows you to play your division mates and crossover rival annually and the other 6 once every 3 years.

It’s not ideal and not even my ideal set up—that would be adding Oklahoma and Kansas/Missouri to the West—but I think it’s better than having one division perpetually seeing their champ beaten.
07-25-2020 11:33 AM
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schmolik Offline
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RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
I was experimenting with the Big Ten divisions a while back in a previous thread using Big Ten conference records since Maryland and Rutgers joined the B1G: https://csnbbs.com/thread-897963.html.

The East has won the Big Ten Championship all six seasons but the East leads the West 185-179 (.508). It's not as bad as it looks. Ohio State has by far the best record but the second best record in conference is Wisconsin and they're in the West. Rutgers of course balances out the East Division by sucking.

If you went to the old Leaders and Legends divisions and gave Maryland to the Leaders and Rutgers to the Legends, the Legends would lead 183-181 (.503). Is that worth realigning the divisions? I don't think so. Also, the old "Legends" rule was "M's, N's, and Iowa" so you would have to put Maryland in the Legends and doing that makes the Legends division more lopsided.

If Ohio State continues to dominate the Big Ten, it really won't matter what the divisions are, whatever division Brutus is in will win the Big Ten Championship Game every year just like whatever divisions Clemson, Alabama, and Oregon are in will win their conferences.
07-25-2020 11:53 AM
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cubucks Online
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RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
The current western teams are catching up to the east. Ohio State and Penn State are the best 2 currently, but Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Nebraska and Northwestern make a more competitive division, imho. Recruiting has been very solid in the west recently and, I believe, the best "group" of coaches in the country exist over there.

With that said, I'm a huge fan of eliminating conference divisions all together.
(This post was last modified: 07-25-2020 06:47 PM by cubucks.)
07-25-2020 12:02 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Online
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RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
If this proposal went up for a vote, it almost certainly loses 11-3, if not worse. Illinois, Purdue, & Minnesota are the only 3 who might vote for it.

Rutgers - loses Penn St
Maryland - loses Ohio St
Penn St - loses Michigan & Rutgers
Ohio St - loses Michigan St
Michigan - loses Penn St
Michigan St - loses Ohio St
Indiana - loses Michigan St

^ In the East alone, all 7 teams would be trading the above for something less desirable.

Realigning divisions and breaking up rivalries all so one game sees more parity is fixing one problem with a solution that creates 25 more problems.

The East could win the championship game 100 straight years and the current alignment is still markedly more valuable to the schools’ needs than a zipper alignment.
07-25-2020 12:04 PM
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RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
No.

KISS.

And the balance of power changes over time. The Big 12 North was dominant over the Big 12 South in the first couple of years. At the end of the 12 team Big 12, the South was vastly superior.

The East was dominant in the 90s in the SEC. The last 10 years, the West has been dominant.
07-25-2020 01:43 PM
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westwolf Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
Don't mess up the divisions again! Either leave them in their current, logical format or scrap divisons altogether. That Legends & Leaders business was a crock.
07-26-2020 10:24 AM
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panite Offline
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RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
Leave the divisions alone and return to 8 conference games so the lower half of the conference can schedule 4 cupcakes to help them to get to 6 & 6 and get bowl eligible. 04-cheers
07-26-2020 02:00 PM
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seaking4steel Offline
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RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
The Big Ten already tried something like this when they first added divisions after Nebraska joined. The Legends and Leaders divisions were hated because they broke up several big rivalries, and are why they switched to geographic divisions when Maryland and Rutgers joined.
07-26-2020 09:21 PM
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goofus Offline
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RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
If the Big Ten must be split into 2 divisions, I believe the east-west split is the ideal way to do it. Teams want to play their geographic neighbors every year.

With that said, I believe the more ideal setup is to scrap divisions and each team just have 5 permanent rivals that they play each year, and then play the other 8 teams every other year.

The 5 permanent rivals would be

Neb - Iowa, Minn, Wisc, NW, PSU
Iowa - Neb, Minn, Wisc, NW, ILL
Minn - Neb, Iowa, Wisc, Mich, Indy
Wisc - Neb, Iowa, Minn, NW, MSU

NW - Neb, Iowa, Wisc, ILL, Pur
ILL - NW, Iowa, Indy, Pur, OSU
Pur - Indy, NW, ILL, Mich, Rut
Indy - Pur, ILL, MSU, Minn, MD

MSU - Mich, Indy, Wisc, PSU, MD
Mich - OSU, MSU, Pur, Minn, Rut
OSU - Mich, PSU, Rut, MD, ILL

PSU - OSU, MSU, Rut, MD, Neb
MD - Rut, PSU, OSU, MSU, Indy
Rut - MD, PSU, OSU, Mich, Pur
07-26-2020 09:41 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
(07-26-2020 09:41 PM)goofus Wrote:  If the Big Ten must be split into 2 divisions, I believe the east-west split is the ideal way to do it. Teams want to play their geographic neighbors every year.

With that said, I believe the more ideal setup is to scrap divisions and each team just have 5 permanent rivals that they play each year, and then play the other 8 teams every other year.

The 5 permanent rivals would be

Neb - Iowa, Minn, Wisc, NW, PSU
Iowa - Neb, Minn, Wisc, NW, ILL
Minn - Neb, Iowa, Wisc, Mich, Indy
Wisc - Neb, Iowa, Minn, NW, MSU

NW - Neb, Iowa, Wisc, ILL, Pur
ILL - NW, Iowa, Indy, Pur, OSU
Pur - Indy, NW, ILL, Mich, Rut
Indy - Pur, ILL, MSU, Minn, MD

MSU - Mich, Indy, Wisc, PSU, MD
Mich - OSU, MSU, Pur, Minn, Rut
OSU - Mich, PSU, Rut, MD, ILL

PSU - OSU, MSU, Rut, MD, Neb
MD - Rut, PSU, OSU, MSU, Indy
Rut - MD, PSU, OSU, Mich, Pur

Here's a better setup, from this thread on divisionless conferences:

Big Ten
Code:
ILLINOIS        Northwestern    Purdue          Rutgers        | Indiana        | Minnesota      
INDIANA         Purdue          Rutgers         Northwestern   | Illinois       | Michigan State  
IOWA            Nebraska        Wisconsin       Minnesota      | Northwestern   | Ohio State      
MARYLAND        Rutgers         Penn State      Purdue         | Nebraska       | Michigan        
MICHIGAN        Michigan State  Ohio State      Penn State     | Wisconsin      | Maryland        
MICHIGAN STATE  Michigan        Northwestern    Ohio State     | Penn State     | Indiana        
MINNESOTA       Wisconsin       Nebraska        Iowa           | Purdue         | Illinois        
NEBRASKA        Iowa            Minnesota       Wisconsin      | Maryland       | Purdue          
NORTHWESTERN    Illinois        Michigan State  Indiana        | Iowa           | Wisconsin      
OHIO STATE      Penn State      Michigan        Michigan State | Rutgers        | Iowa            
PENN STATE      Ohio State      Maryland        Michigan       | Michigan State | Rutgers        
PURDUE          Indiana         Illinois        Maryland       | Minnesota      | Nebraska        
RUTGERS         Maryland        Indiana         Illinois       | Ohio State     | Penn State      
WISCONSIN       Minnesota       Iowa            Nebraska       | Michigan       | Northwestern
(This post was last modified: 07-27-2020 05:26 AM by Nerdlinger.)
07-27-2020 05:26 AM
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schmolik Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
(07-26-2020 09:41 PM)goofus Wrote:  If the Big Ten must be split into 2 divisions, I believe the east-west split is the ideal way to do it. Teams want to play their geographic neighbors every year.

With that said, I believe the more ideal setup is to scrap divisions and each team just have 5 permanent rivals that they play each year, and then play the other 8 teams every other year.

The 5 permanent rivals would be

Neb - Iowa, Minn, Wisc, NW, PSU
Iowa - Neb, Minn, Wisc, NW, ILL
Minn - Neb, Iowa, Wisc, Mich, Indy
Wisc - Neb, Iowa, Minn, NW, MSU

NW - Neb, Iowa, Wisc, ILL, Pur
ILL - NW, Iowa, Indy, Pur, OSU
Pur - Indy, NW, ILL, Mich, Rut
Indy - Pur, ILL, MSU, Minn, MD

MSU - Mich, Indy, Wisc, PSU, MD
Mich - OSU, MSU, Pur, Minn, Rut
OSU - Mich, PSU, Rut, MD, ILL

PSU - OSU, MSU, Rut, MD, Neb
MD - Rut, PSU, OSU, MSU, Indy
Rut - MD, PSU, OSU, Mich, Pur

There certainly would be some gains if the Big Ten got rid of divisions. The best two teams could play in the Big Ten Championship Game every year (possibly even Ohio State and Michigan). Top teams like Ohio State and Wisconsin could play more often while obvious blowout games like Ohio State vs. Rutgers wouldn't have to be played every year (although they are listed here as permanent rivals). Some of the other East-West rivalry games like Illibuck (Illinois/Ohio State) and the Little Brown Jug (Michigan/Minnesota) can go back to every year.

From an Illinois perspective, getting rid of divisions allows us to play the Eastern teams (the big money schools) more often although I've pointed out when you play the big money schools more often you usually lose more often. Illinois is actually closer in distance to Ohio State (300 miles) and Michigan (345) than they are to Minnesota (517 miles) and Nebraska (518). I think Illinois and Indiana could play more often, possibly annually, and they could be a good secondary rivalry (Illinois would never be Indiana's #1 rivalry). I personally being in Philly would want Illinois to play more East Coast games (Penn State, Maryland, and Rutgers) although that would be more miles for them.

But from a Penn State perspective, they can't gain much other than more games with Wisconsin (and for my personal perspective Illinois so my two alma maters can meet more often but most PSU alums don't care to play Illinois more often) and if it means more games west of the Mississippi count me out. Ohio State and Michigan would probably think like Penn State (with the exception of the Little Brown Jug).

I think the Big Ten overall might gain a little but not that much by dumping divisions. The conference is pretty wide geographically ranging from Rutgers, Maryland, and Penn State to Nebraska and the divisions minimize travel. If you're Illinois or Purdue, it doesn't make that much difference (and they got stuck on the "wrong" side) but if you're Penn State or Nebraska, it's great. On the other hand, the SEC and ACC would gain a ton by dropping divisions, especially because they have permanent rivals and 8 game conference schedules. Teams like Alabama and Georgia only play twice every 12 years. In the Big Ten, it isn't as big a deal. In the Pac-12, it's less of a big deal since they only have 12 teams.

If they ever decided to get rid of the "division" rule, I'm guessing the ACC and SEC would definitely vote yes. The Big Ten wouldn't really lose by voting yes, they would vote no because they don't mind the current East and West divisions and to block the ACC and SEC from getting rid of their divisions. Same with the Pac 12.
07-27-2020 05:39 AM
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Post: #12
RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
Wow. People trying to reinvent the wheel here. First it’s “the ACC needs to be aligned geographically”. Now it’s “the Big 10 should go back to the zipper”. Good grief. They changed from that garbage for a good reason: it sucked!

Here’s a hot take on permanent rivals:

Maryland- RU, PSU, MSU
Rutgers- UMD, PSU, NW
PSU- UMD, RU, OSU
OSU- UM, PSU, Ill
UM- OSU, MSU, Minn
MSU- UMD, UM, PU
Ind- PU, Neb, NW
PU- Ind, MSU, Ill
NW- RU, Ill, Ind
Ill- OSU, NW, PU
Wis- Minn, Neb, Iowa
Minn- UM, Wis, Iowa
Iowa- Minn, Neb, Wis
Neb- Iowa, Wis, Ind
(This post was last modified: 07-27-2020 07:01 AM by esayem.)
07-27-2020 06:51 AM
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Post: #13
RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
Just move Michigan and Michigan State to the West:

Rutgers
Maryland
Penn State
Ohio State
Purdue
Indiana
Illinois

Michigan
Michigan State
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Iowa
Nebraska
Northwestern

Lock in a cross-division rivalry game to protect key rivalries, and you now have a stronger (North)West division.
07-28-2020 07:32 AM
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goofus Offline
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RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
The main appeal to scrapping divisions, to me anyway, is the additional flexibility in scheduling. You can guarantee everybody plays everybody else in the conference at least 50% of the time, and every team visits your campus at least once every 4 years.

As for the need to have the top 2 teams in the CCG, I personally think that is over-rated. The key is did every team get their shot at least 1 team playing in the CCG. If they had their shot, they don't need to play again. If OSU beats Mich in the last week of the season, do the 2 teams really need to play again a week later. Give somebody else a shot to beat OSU.
(This post was last modified: 07-28-2020 09:31 AM by goofus.)
07-28-2020 09:30 AM
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RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
(07-28-2020 09:30 AM)goofus Wrote:  The main appeal to scrapping divisions, to me anyway, is the additional flexibility in scheduling. You can guarantee everybody plays everybody else in the conference at least 50% of the time, and every team visits your campus at least once every 4 years.

As for the need to have the top 2 teams in the CCG, I personally think that is over-rated. The key is did every team get their shot at least 1 team playing in the CCG. If they had their shot, they don't need to play again. If OSU beats Mich in the last week of the season, do the 2 teams really need to play again a week later. Give somebody else a shot to beat OSU.

Yes! I'm very stubborn about teams within a conference should be playing each other more often. Get rid of the stupid divisions in college football and mix it up a bit more. Regional games are a thing of the past, give me more games to the west with Ohio State! The championship game can be against the top 2 teams in the CFP ranking.

The ACC was all for this but Big Jim pushed back on the idea, wish he would have kept his nose out of this one.
07-28-2020 11:10 AM
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RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
You can get most of these 3-, 4-, and 5-permanent rival proposal accomplished within the existing rules, you just can’t guarantee the Top Two make the CCG without an AAC-type waiver. If “top two” is less of a concern, then use a mixed pod system for scheduling and divisions.
07-28-2020 11:53 AM
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RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
(07-28-2020 09:30 AM)goofus Wrote:  The main appeal to scrapping divisions, to me anyway, is the additional flexibility in scheduling. You can guarantee everybody plays everybody else in the conference at least 50% of the time, and every team visits your campus at least once every 4 years.

As for the need to have the top 2 teams in the CCG, I personally think that is over-rated. The key is did every team get their shot at least 1 team playing in the CCG. If they had their shot, they don't need to play again. If OSU beats Mich in the last week of the season, do the 2 teams really need to play again a week later. Give somebody else a shot to beat OSU.

The biggest disadvantage to not having divisions is having random tiebreaks and scheduling flukes determine who gets in the championship game.

When the Big 10 was at 11, Iowa and Ohio St. both finished 8-0 one year. There was a year a mediocre Purdue team could have won the title if they only beat Penn St. They didn't have Ohio St. or Michigan on the schedule that year. Northwestern won one year with no Michigan or Ohio St. on the schedule.

In a 14 team conference those sorts of things will happen more often. There could even be a year with 3 unbeaten teams. It will be a total mess even with a 10 game conference schedule.
07-28-2020 01:45 PM
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RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
Zippers suck: they break up rivalries and are highly confusing for fans.

A better solution is to get rid of Divisions altogether, protect 3 to 5 games, and rotate the rest (dependent upon the number of schools in the conference and the number of games), sending the best two to the CCG.
07-28-2020 02:14 PM
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RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
(07-28-2020 01:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(07-28-2020 09:30 AM)goofus Wrote:  The main appeal to scrapping divisions, to me anyway, is the additional flexibility in scheduling. You can guarantee everybody plays everybody else in the conference at least 50% of the time, and every team visits your campus at least once every 4 years.

As for the need to have the top 2 teams in the CCG, I personally think that is over-rated. The key is did every team get their shot at least 1 team playing in the CCG. If they had their shot, they don't need to play again. If OSU beats Mich in the last week of the season, do the 2 teams really need to play again a week later. Give somebody else a shot to beat OSU.

The biggest disadvantage to not having divisions is having random tiebreaks and scheduling flukes determine who gets in the championship game.

When the Big 10 was at 11, Iowa and Ohio St. both finished 8-0 one year. There was a year a mediocre Purdue team could have won the title if they only beat Penn St. They didn't have Ohio St. or Michigan on the schedule that year. Northwestern won one year with no Michigan or Ohio St. on the schedule.

In a 14 team conference those sorts of things will happen more often. There could even be a year with 3 unbeaten teams. It will be a total mess even with a 10 game conference schedule.
I disagree with you on this. Everyone uses the "there may be multiple teams tied" excuse. So what, that's when a solid SOS comes into play. If Michigan, Ohio State and Iowa are tied, well which 2 played the toughest schedules? Let the CFP rankings sort all that out and the highest 2 play in the CCG.

It is ridiculous having huge conferences and teams never playing each other. 8 years, 8 YEARS! Texas A&M was in the SEC before playing Georgia. What the heck is the point of being conference peers?

I definitely envy the Big 12 when it comes to conference schedules.
07-28-2020 02:23 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: Should the Big Ten rethink the Zipper format?
(07-28-2020 07:32 AM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  Just move Michigan and Michigan State to the West:

Rutgers
Maryland
Penn State
Ohio State
Purdue
Indiana
Illinois

Michigan
Michigan State
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Iowa
Nebraska
Northwestern

Lock in a cross-division rivalry game to protect key rivalries, and you now have a stronger (North)West division.

The bolded part isn't fair to teams that have to play the strongest team in the other division every year. Michigan would get the shaft by playing Ohio State every year, while Northwestern gets to play Illinois every year and only has to play Ohio State only once every three years.

Only way around that is to put the teams that "have to" play every year in the same division, rotate cross-division opponents equally, and forget about geography for this purpose.

Division X: Michigan, Mich St, Ohio St, Illinois, Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue.

Division Z: Penn St, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, Nebraska, Maryland, Rutgers.
07-28-2020 02:26 PM
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