(07-31-2020 04:04 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 03:51 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  I hope the ACC decides to keep the divisionless setup. I've long thought 3 permanent and 5 rotating works perfectly for the ACC and SEC.

Who are your ideal 3 permanent rivals for South Carolina among current SEC schools?

I would prefer UGA (I think we would be their third behind UF and Auburn) and then any two of the East teams. But I’m not terribly picky

(07-31-2020 05:57 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 04:04 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 03:51 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  I hope the ACC decides to keep the divisionless setup. I've long thought 3 permanent and 5 rotating works perfectly for the ACC and SEC.

Who are your ideal 3 permanent rivals for South Carolina among current SEC schools?

I would prefer UGA (I think we would be their third behind UF and Auburn) and then any two of the East teams. But I’m not terribly picky

South Carolina would probably be 3rd for UGA, but it would be close with Tennessee. UGA and Tennessee just didn't play much before the expansion to 12 so there's not the rivalry intensity you would expect. They only played 8 times between 1937 and 1992, once going 31 years without meeting. And since then, Tennessee was strong and dominated in the 90s while UGA was mediocre. Since then Tennessee has been mostly mediocre and UGA has dominated.

(07-31-2020 06:41 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 05:57 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 04:04 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 03:51 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  I hope the ACC decides to keep the divisionless setup. I've long thought 3 permanent and 5 rotating works perfectly for the ACC and SEC.

Who are your ideal 3 permanent rivals for South Carolina among current SEC schools?

I would prefer UGA (I think we would be their third behind UF and Auburn) and then any two of the East teams. But I’m not terribly picky

South Carolina would probably be 3rd for UGA, but it would be close with Tennessee. UGA and Tennessee just didn't play much before the expansion to 12 so there's not the rivalry intensity you would expect. They only played 8 times between 1937 and 1992, once going 31 years without meeting. And since then, Tennessee was strong and dominated in the 90s while UGA was mediocre. Since then Tennessee has been mostly mediocre and UGA has dominated.

Yep, exactly. UGA and S.C. go back quite a ways believe it or not. Since 1958 I think we’ve played every year other than 72-73 and 90-91 and both were due to changing conferences

(07-31-2020 06:51 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 06:41 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 05:57 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 04:04 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 03:51 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  I hope the ACC decides to keep the divisionless setup. I've long thought 3 permanent and 5 rotating works perfectly for the ACC and SEC.

Who are your ideal 3 permanent rivals for South Carolina among current SEC schools?

I would prefer UGA (I think we would be their third behind UF and Auburn) and then any two of the East teams. But I’m not terribly picky

South Carolina would probably be 3rd for UGA, but it would be close with Tennessee. UGA and Tennessee just didn't play much before the expansion to 12 so there's not the rivalry intensity you would expect. They only played 8 times between 1937 and 1992, once going 31 years without meeting. And since then, Tennessee was strong and dominated in the 90s while UGA was mediocre. Since then Tennessee has been mostly mediocre and UGA has dominated.

Yep, exactly. UGA and S.C. go back quite a ways believe it or not. Since 1958 I think we’ve played every year other than 72-73 and 90-91 and both were due to changing conferences

Were those breaks due to changing conferences? Since South Carolina went independent in 1971, their schedule would only have become more flexible. And they were still independent in football until 1992. I think the gaps may actually have been due to a temporary increase in conference games for Georgia (7 instead of 6) for 1972 and 1973, and then the delayed effect of a permanent increase in conference games for the SEC from 6 to 7 in 1988.

(07-31-2020 07:04 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 06:51 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 06:41 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 05:57 PM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 04:04 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Who are your ideal 3 permanent rivals for South Carolina among current SEC schools?

I would prefer UGA (I think we would be their third behind UF and Auburn) and then any two of the East teams. But I’m not terribly picky

South Carolina would probably be 3rd for UGA, but it would be close with Tennessee. UGA and Tennessee just didn't play much before the expansion to 12 so there's not the rivalry intensity you would expect. They only played 8 times between 1937 and 1992, once going 31 years without meeting. And since then, Tennessee was strong and dominated in the 90s while UGA was mediocre. Since then Tennessee has been mostly mediocre and UGA has dominated.

Yep, exactly. UGA and S.C. go back quite a ways believe it or not. Since 1958 I think we’ve played every year other than 72-73 and 90-91 and both were due to changing conferences

Were those breaks due to changing conferences? Since South Carolina went independent in 1971, their schedule would only have become more flexible. And they were still independent in football until 1992. I think the gaps may actually have been due to a temporary increase in conference games for Georgia (7 instead of 6) for 1972 and 1973, and then the delayed effect of a permanent increase in conference games for the SEC from 6 to 7 in 1988.

Ahh well that’s probably it. I just assumed it was related somehow

Here's SC's all time games played top 10

1. Clemson 117
2. Georgia 72
3T. NC State 58
UNC 58
5. Wake Forest 56
6. Citadel 51
7. Furman 49
8. Duke 44
9. Florida 40
10. Tennessee 36

South Carolina spent 50 years in the SoCon/ACC from 1921 to 1971.

One of NC State's most important games was South Carolina after Dick Christy scored all 29 in the win at Columbia, including a drop kick. We used to play in October. When FSU was added to the ACC we dialed back playing SC and then the games sucked because they were played around Labor Day or Charlotte. No one with good sense wants to be in Columbia SC until the 4th week of September.

(07-31-2020 08:34 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Here's SC's all time games played top 10

1. Clemson 117
2. Georgia 72
3T. NC State 58
UNC 58
5. Wake Forest 56
6. Citadel 51
7. Furman 49
8. Duke 44
9. Florida 40
10. Tennessee 36

South Carolina spent 50 years in the SoCon/ACC from 1921 to 1971.

One of NC State's most important games was South Carolina after Dick Christy scored all 29 in the win at Columbia, including a drop kick. We used to play in October. When FSU was added to the ACC we dialed back playing SC and then the games sucked because they were played around Labor Day or Charlotte. No one with good sense wants to be in Columbia SC until the 4th week of September.

Brutal, brutal heat. I did enjoy our game in 2017 and would love to do any other home and home again

(07-31-2020 05:10 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(07-30-2020 11:58 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(07-30-2020 11:45 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  How are divisions obviously not working for the ACC?

I'll take a stab at it: current ACC divisions leave too many good match-ups on the table while giving us too many unwatchable games.

Clemson vs. Miami and Clemson vs. Virginia Tech = great games
Clemson vs. Boston College and Clemson vs. Syracuse = not so much

Nothing against BC or 'Cuse - let 'em play each other, Pitt (who BC hardly ever plays) and Louisville. I enjoy a good BC/VT or Pitt/VT game, and I wouldn't mind seeing Louisville/VT more often, too. VT/UNC is fine, but VT/Duke? Not so much.

The ACC CG contestants are usually 2 of the best teams - if not the actual best 2. That's not the problem; it's the regular season that is hurt by the divisions as-is.
(JMO)

Syracuse has actually beaten Clemson in the last few years and another game Clemson had to score in the last minute to win. Not sure who else has had any better success?

Not denying Syracuse has played well against Clemson at times, just saying it isn't a matchup that casual football fans care to see. TBH, if Syracuse is one team I want the other to be BC, Penn State, Pitt, WVU, etc.

Yeah, the 3+5 model is really the way to go for a 14-team ACC. It would basically solve all the divisional issues.

(07-31-2020 10:34 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 05:10 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(07-30-2020 11:58 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(07-30-2020 11:45 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  How are divisions obviously not working for the ACC?

I'll take a stab at it: current ACC divisions leave too many good match-ups on the table while giving us too many unwatchable games.

Clemson vs. Miami and Clemson vs. Virginia Tech = great games
Clemson vs. Boston College and Clemson vs. Syracuse = not so much

Nothing against BC or 'Cuse - let 'em play each other, Pitt (who BC hardly ever plays) and Louisville. I enjoy a good BC/VT or Pitt/VT game, and I wouldn't mind seeing Louisville/VT more often, too. VT/UNC is fine, but VT/Duke? Not so much.

The ACC CG contestants are usually 2 of the best teams - if not the actual best 2. That's not the problem; it's the regular season that is hurt by the divisions as-is.
(JMO)

Syracuse has actually beaten Clemson in the last few years and another game Clemson had to score in the last minute to win. Not sure who else has had any better success?

Not denying Syracuse has played well against Clemson at times, just saying it isn't a matchup that casual football fans care to see. TBH, if Syracuse is one team I want the other to be BC, Penn State, Pitt, WVU, etc.

That you don't play WF more often is a crime.

Who’s going to volunteer to have WF as a permanent rival if the ACC goes to a divisionless format?

NC St, Duke, and then force them on L’ville since they have the least connections and history with the rest of the ACC?

(07-31-2020 08:34 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Here's SC's all time games played top 10

1. Clemson 117
2. Georgia 72
3T. NC State 58
UNC 58
5. Wake Forest 56
6. Citadel 51
7. Furman 49
8. Duke 44
9. Florida 40
10. Tennessee 36

South Carolina spent 50 years in the SoCon/ACC from 1921 to 1971.

One of NC State's most important games was South Carolina after Dick Christy scored all 29 in the win at Columbia, including a drop kick. We used to play in October. When FSU was added to the ACC we dialed back playing SC and then the games sucked because they were played around Labor Day or Charlotte. No one with good sense wants to be in Columbia SC until the 4th week of September.

Georgia's top 10 https://www.sicemdawgs.com/uga-football-...opponents/
1. Auburn 123
2. Georgia Tech 111
3. Florida 97
4. Vanderbilt 79
5. Kentucky 72
6. South Carolina 71
7. Alabama 69
8. Clemson 64
9. Tennesssee 48
10. Ole Miss 46 (was a big game before expansion-played every year from 1966-2002-one of UGA's two fixed conference games before they switched from 5-2-1 to 5-1-2).

(08-01-2020 11:52 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(07-31-2020 08:34 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Here's SC's all time games played top 10

1. Clemson 117
2. Georgia 72
3T. NC State 58
UNC 58
5. Wake Forest 56
6. Citadel 51
7. Furman 49
8. Duke 44
9. Florida 40
10. Tennessee 36

South Carolina spent 50 years in the SoCon/ACC from 1921 to 1971.

One of NC State's most important games was South Carolina after Dick Christy scored all 29 in the win at Columbia, including a drop kick. We used to play in October. When FSU was added to the ACC we dialed back playing SC and then the games sucked because they were played around Labor Day or Charlotte. No one with good sense wants to be in Columbia SC until the 4th week of September.

Georgia's top 10 https://www.sicemdawgs.com/uga-football-...opponents/
1. Auburn 123
2. Georgia Tech 111
3. Florida 97
4. Vanderbilt 79
5. Kentucky 72
6. South Carolina 71
7. Alabama 69
8. Clemson 64
9. Tennesssee 48
10. Ole Miss 46 (was a big game before expansion-played every year from 1966-2002-one of UGA's two fixed conference games before they switched from 5-2-1 to 5-1-2).

Who Georgia's biggest rivals are depends upon where in the State of Georgia you live. For those who live in Atlanta it's Tech. For those who live anywhere from Valdosta to Brunswick/St.Simons and South it is Florida. From Rome to Valdosta and East including especially Columbus it is Auburn. If you live around Ringgold Georgia it's Tennessee. Augusta to Savannah it would be South Carolina or Clemson. If you are looking at the numbers that identify with one or another it would be a close call between Auburn and Tech as Auburn has the 3rd largest concentration of Alums in Atlanta. But any of this could be argued all day. What can't be argued is that the money games are Auburn and Florida and South Carolina, and when played Clemson. I would think since 1992 that Tennessee has picked up steam as well. What all of those have that Tech doesn't are large capacity stadia. If they ever decided to make UGa / UF a campus site game the proceeds would be better. History and Tradition are the only good reasons to keep it in Jacksonville.

If conferences continue to consolidate, and right now all indications still indicate they will for reasons of revenue and leverage. These in state but out of conference rivalry games are going to have to be safeguarded in some fashion. The easiest way to do it is by absorption. The hardest way will be by legislation and I say hard because that will impact conferences. There are no easy answers and the problem only truly became a problem because of the Market Footprint pay model the networks utilized from the 1990 to 2012 era. After that it has been about branding because subscription fees within footprints switched to actual viewers as technology permitted the jump. There were a lot of moves made between 1990 to 2012 that don't look so hot now. There were a few that remain solid by the new standards (Penn State, Texas A&M, and Florida State stand out to me to be the strongest).

One way to handle some of the rivalry issues would be to have play only among the P5 which will force schools to utilize former buy game slots for these games. But if we do that we have to find that 7th home game. So the solution would be a 13 game schedule (which I don't think will fly), or moving the Spring Game to late August and playing a local FCS or G5 as a pre-season game which helps coaches with their regular season opener because they get a week after to work on the things you never see until you are full game speed. That's the option I would favor and then that game everywhere would become the 7th ticket in the Season ticket book.

(08-01-2020 11:42 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Who’s going to volunteer to have WF as a permanent rival if the ACC goes to a divisionless format?

NC St, Duke, and then force them on L’ville since they have the least connections and history with the rest of the ACC?

The "TLDR" answer is Virginia or Georgia Tech (or maybe Boston College).

The roundabout reasoning: My previous "ideal" divisionless ACC scenario had Virginia as WF's 3rd protected opponent. Admittedly, this is somewhat of a filler matchup.


One notable aspect of the 10-game conference schedule planned by the ACC is that Clemson and NC State wouldn't play. This suggests that their rivalry isn't very important anymore (if it ever was), at least not to both parties. While Duke and Georgia Tech have retained their matchup in the 10-game schedule, I suspect that this rivalry (though having been played annually for longer than Clemson/NC State) is of comparable weakness.

If I break up these 2 rivalries, this permits Duke and NC State a protected matchup, which is logical given their proximity. Since Clemson and GT would already play each other, they each need another protected opponent.

Clemson really should have another strong opponent besides FSU. I could simply match up Clemson and Miami, breaking up BC/Miami, but Miami already has 2 strong protected opponents in FSU and VT. If I instead break up Miami/VT, then VT only has Louisville as a mildly strong opponent, and there are no other strong opponents available.

Thus, we pair Clemson and Virginia Tech, breaking up the Louisville/VT protected matchup. Louisville now needs a strong protected opponent (ruling out WF), so we assign them Miami, breaking up BC/Miami.

At this point, BC and GT are both missing a third protected opponent. It doesn't make a ton of sense to match them up, so I would instead split UVA/WF and opt for BC/UVA and GT/WF. This gives the following arrangement:


So 5 protected pairs were broken up:

BC/Miami
Clemson/NC State
Duke/GT
Louisville/VT
UVA/WF

... in favor of:

BC/UVA
Clemson/VT
Duke/NC State
GT/WF
Louisville/Miami

Perhaps a bit better, although arguably so. I could easily be persuaded to go for BC/WF and GT/UVA, although it may be telling that this year's GT/UVA game was dropped in the 10-game schedule. TBH, BC/GT and UVA/WF is not much worse.

UNC for one, they even scheduled two OOC games with Wake when the ACC schedule dropped them off their play list. UNC is more important for NC State than the other way around. Duke tops UNC then Wake and Virginia.

But this is all inside the beltway stuff. Divisionless football means schools will pick their protected games. They will probably do something similar to what other conferences have done, having each list their preferred opponents in order. When two schools match as top opponents they are locked off. This will determine who each winds up as a rival with. That is the sensible way to do it. If a couple schools are left over.

Note the Math does not work for 3 rivals with 15 schools. You have to either go down to 2 or up to 4. At 3 you get 45 (3 opponents for 15 schools), which means 22 games and one school left out. Logically if you did that it would be ND, who would probably have Pitt and BC as the only rivals.

(08-01-2020 01:59 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  UNC for one, they even scheduled two OOC games with Wake when the ACC schedule dropped them off their play list. UNC is more important for NC State than the other way around. Duke tops UNC then Wake and Virginia.

But this is all inside the beltway stuff. Divisionless football means schools will pick their protected games. They will probably do something similar to what other conferences have done, having each list their preferred opponents in order. When two schools match as top opponents they are locked off. This will determine who each winds up as a rival with. That is the sensible way to do it. If a couple schools are left over.

Note the Math does not work for 3 rivals with 15 schools. You have to either go down to 2 or up to 4. At 3 you get 45 (3 opponents for 15 schools), which means 22 games and one school left out. Logically if you did that it would be ND, who would probably have Pitt and BC as the only rivals.

This is true. I think they'd go for 4 protected opponents, perhaps like so:

(08-01-2020 11:42 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Who’s going to volunteer to have WF as a permanent rival if the ACC goes to a divisionless format?

NC St, Duke, and then force them on L’ville since they have the least connections and history with the rest of the ACC?

I don't think we need anyone to volunteer to play WF. NC State has played them 113 times, UNC 107, Duke 100, Clemson 85, UVa 49 and VT 39. In a three rival set, one of the three will be Clemson or VT. VT and WF actually share joint programs - most don't know that. They along with UNC, shared a coach - Bill Dooley. WF is the closest NC school to Clemson. WF is thirty minutes closer to VT than VT is to UVa.

(08-01-2020 09:42 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(08-01-2020 11:42 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Who’s going to volunteer to have WF as a permanent rival if the ACC goes to a divisionless format?

NC St, Duke, and then force them on L’ville since they have the least connections and history with the rest of the ACC?

I don't think we need anyone to volunteer to play WF. NC State has played them 113 times, UNC 107, Duke 100, Clemson 85, UVa 49 and VT 39. In a three rival set, one of the three will be Clemson or VT. VT and WF actually share joint programs - most don't know that. They along with UNC, shared a coach - Bill Dooley. WF is the closest NC school to Clemson. WF is thirty minutes closer to VT than VT is to UVa.

+1. Correct.

(07-31-2020 11:41 PM)3BNole Wrote:  Yeah, the 3+5 model is really the way to go for a 14-team ACC. It would basically solve all the divisional issues.

I suppose now that we have 15 members, the model is 4 (perm) +5 + 5

(08-01-2020 09:42 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(08-01-2020 11:42 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Who’s going to volunteer to have WF as a permanent rival if the ACC goes to a divisionless format?

NC St, Duke, and then force them on L’ville since they have the least connections and history with the rest of the ACC?

I don't think we need anyone to volunteer to play WF. NC State has played them 113 times, UNC 107, Duke 100, Clemson 85, UVa 49 and VT 39. In a three rival set, one of the three will be Clemson or VT. VT and WF actually share joint programs - most don't know that. They along with UNC, shared a coach - Bill Dooley. WF is the closest NC school to Clemson. WF is thirty minutes closer to VT than VT is to UVa.

Expansion/realignment has ruined many series.
I would hope Carolina would get to play Wake Forest every year. Prior to our OOC game with Wake last year Carolina had only been able to play the Deacs 5 times in the prevoius 14 years. Not what you would expect with a team that you have over a 100 year history with.