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Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
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HaymondAtThe4 Offline
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Post: #1
Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
If you've been worried about government tyranny in the USA, here's a good example. If you're a big advocate of states' rights, you should be very upset about the federal government sending officers from unidentified agencies to a state and city whose leadership does not want them there.

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/7/21/p...ral_agents

"In general, fascism can best be understood as bringing the methods of imperial rule in the colonies into the metropole." -Michael Novick
07-24-2020 09:19 AM
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ess Offline
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RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
(07-24-2020 09:19 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  If you've been worried about government tyranny in the USA, here's a good example. If you're a big advocate of states' rights, you should be very upset about the federal government sending officers from unidentified agencies to a state and city whose leadership does not want them there.

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/7/21/p...ral_agents

"In general, fascism can best be understood as bringing the methods of imperial rule in the colonies into the metropole." -Michael Novick

Haymond..."we've" been waitng for you. Where have you been?
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2020 04:30 PM by ess.)
07-24-2020 04:30 PM
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Cucumber Salad Offline
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RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
(07-24-2020 09:19 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  If you've been worried about government tyranny in the USA, here's a good example. If you're a big advocate of states' rights, you should be very upset about the federal government sending officers from unidentified agencies to a state and city whose leadership does not want them there.

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/7/21/p...ral_agents

"In general, fascism can best be understood as bringing the methods of imperial rule in the colonies into the metropole." -Michael Novick

https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/sta...3828724736

Come on over. I have some neighbors who I don’t care for. Let’s cut up their houses.

These protesters? 03-shhhh
07-25-2020 11:10 AM
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Post: #4
RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
(07-25-2020 11:10 AM)Cucumber Salad Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 09:19 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  If you've been worried about government tyranny in the USA, here's a good example. If you're a big advocate of states' rights, you should be very upset about the federal government sending officers from unidentified agencies to a state and city whose leadership does not want them there.

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/7/21/p...ral_agents

"In general, fascism can best be understood as bringing the methods of imperial rule in the colonies into the metropole." -Michael Novick

https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/sta...3828724736

Come on over. I have some neighbors who I don’t care for. Let’s cut up their houses.

These protesters? 03-shhhh

Even if you believe protesters are doing bad things, these feds need to stick to their own f---ing courthouse. They should have NO authority to roam the streets and as mentioned the city doesn't want them there.

You "freedom loving" conservatives should have no problem agreeing with that.
07-25-2020 11:42 AM
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Boca Rocket Offline
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RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
(07-25-2020 11:42 AM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  
(07-25-2020 11:10 AM)Cucumber Salad Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 09:19 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  If you've been worried about government tyranny in the USA, here's a good example. If you're a big advocate of states' rights, you should be very upset about the federal government sending officers from unidentified agencies to a state and city whose leadership does not want them there.

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/7/21/p...ral_agents

"In general, fascism can best be understood as bringing the methods of imperial rule in the colonies into the metropole." -Michael Novick

https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/sta...3828724736

Come on over. I have some neighbors who I don’t care for. Let’s cut up their houses.

These protesters? 03-shhhh

Even if you believe protesters are doing bad things, these feds need to stick to their own f---ing courthouse. They should have NO authority to roam the streets and as mentioned the city doesn't want them there.

You "freedom loving" conservatives should have no problem agreeing with that.

If someone has attacked a Federal Courthouse and Federal Officers defending it, they can be charged with a Federal Offense. Federal Officers have a right to pick those people up. Hope they get some nice long sentences. If these were peaceful protests, Federal Officers would not be in the mix at the level they currently are.
07-25-2020 12:21 PM
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Cucumber Salad Offline
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RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
(07-25-2020 11:42 AM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  
(07-25-2020 11:10 AM)Cucumber Salad Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 09:19 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  If you've been worried about government tyranny in the USA, here's a good example. If you're a big advocate of states' rights, you should be very upset about the federal government sending officers from unidentified agencies to a state and city whose leadership does not want them there.

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/7/21/p...ral_agents

"In general, fascism can best be understood as bringing the methods of imperial rule in the colonies into the metropole." -Michael Novick

https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/sta...3828724736

Come on over. I have some neighbors who I don’t care for. Let’s cut up their houses.

These protesters? 03-shhhh

Even if you believe protesters are doing bad things, these feds need to stick to their own f---ing courthouse. They should have NO authority to roam the streets and as mentioned the city doesn't want them there.

You "freedom loving" conservatives should have no problem agreeing with that.

Protesters with blow torches and circular saw’s?
07-25-2020 12:28 PM
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Boca Rocket Offline
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RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
(07-25-2020 12:28 PM)Cucumber Salad Wrote:  
(07-25-2020 11:42 AM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  
(07-25-2020 11:10 AM)Cucumber Salad Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 09:19 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  If you've been worried about government tyranny in the USA, here's a good example. If you're a big advocate of states' rights, you should be very upset about the federal government sending officers from unidentified agencies to a state and city whose leadership does not want them there.

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/7/21/p...ral_agents

"In general, fascism can best be understood as bringing the methods of imperial rule in the colonies into the metropole." -Michael Novick

https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/sta...3828724736

Come on over. I have some neighbors who I don’t care for. Let’s cut up their houses.

These protesters? 03-shhhh

Even if you believe protesters are doing bad things, these feds need to stick to their own f---ing courthouse. They should have NO authority to roam the streets and as mentioned the city doesn't want them there.

You "freedom loving" conservatives should have no problem agreeing with that.

Protesters with blow torches and circular saw’s?

Also lasers that may have permanently blinded several Officers.
07-25-2020 12:32 PM
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Cucumber Salad Offline
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RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
(07-25-2020 11:42 AM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  
(07-25-2020 11:10 AM)Cucumber Salad Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 09:19 AM)HaymondAtThe4 Wrote:  If you've been worried about government tyranny in the USA, here's a good example. If you're a big advocate of states' rights, you should be very upset about the federal government sending officers from unidentified agencies to a state and city whose leadership does not want them there.

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/7/21/p...ral_agents

"In general, fascism can best be understood as bringing the methods of imperial rule in the colonies into the metropole." -Michael Novick

https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/sta...3828724736

Come on over. I have some neighbors who I don’t care for. Let’s cut up their houses.

These protesters? 03-shhhh

Even if you believe protesters are doing bad things


You "freedom loving" conservatives should have no problem agreeing with that.

Believe?

I can see the “protesters” action with my own eyes. I don’t need to imagine an alternative perspective to justify or assuage feelings.

But I’m happy to read your thoughts to persuade me the actions of the protesters are justifiable.
07-25-2020 12:37 PM
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RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
Not the point. We're talking about the role of government here. Yes or no-- should unidentified federal cops be driving around cities and grabbing people off the streets?
(This post was last modified: 07-27-2020 05:55 PM by wmubroncopilot.)
07-27-2020 05:55 PM
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DtownBronco Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
(07-27-2020 05:55 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  Not the point. We're talking about the role of government here. Yes or no-- should unidentified federal cops be driving around cities and grabbing people off the streets?

Yes. They are arresting criminals with the authority granted to them by the Homeland Security act of 2002.

---

40 U.S. Code § 1315. Law enforcement authority of Secretary of Homeland Security for protection of public property

U.S. Code

a) In General.—
To the extent provided for by transfers made pursuant to the Homeland Security Act of 2002, the Secretary of Homeland Security (in this section referred to as the “Secretary”) shall protect the buildings, grounds, and property that are owned, occupied, or secured by the Federal Government (including any agency, instrumentality, or wholly owned or mixed-ownership corporation thereof) and the persons on the property.
b) Officers and Agents.—
(1) Designation.—
The Secretary may designate employees of the Department of Homeland Security, including employees transferred to the Department from the Office of the Federal Protective Service of the General Services Administration pursuant to the Homeland Security Act of 2002, as officers and agents for duty in connection with the protection of property owned or occupied by the Federal Government and persons on the property, including duty in areas outside the property to the extent necessary to protect the property and persons on the property.
(2) Powers.—While engaged in the performance of official duties, an officer or agent designated under this subsection may—
A) enforce Federal laws and regulations for the protection of persons and property;
B) carry firearms;
C) make arrests without a warrant for any offense against the United States committed in the presence of the officer or agent or for any felony cognizable under the laws of the United States if the officer or agent has reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing a felony
D) serve warrants and subpoenas issued under the authority of the United States;
E) conduct investigations, on and off the property in question, of offenses that may have been committed against property owned or occupied by the Federal Government or persons on the property; and
F) carry out such other activities for the promotion of homeland security as the Secretary may prescribe.

Link
07-27-2020 06:39 PM
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RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
First of all, just because a law was put into place doesn't mean its correct or doesn't violate civil liberties.

Secondly, when the DHS is admitting openly that many of these arrests are in their words "proactive", I don't think most people would consider grabbing people off the streets and throwing them in a van as "reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing a felony".
07-27-2020 06:48 PM
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DtownBronco Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
(07-27-2020 06:48 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  First of all, just because a law was put into place doesn't mean its correct or doesn't violate civil liberties.

Secondly, when the DHS is admitting openly that many of these arrests are in their words "proactive", I don't think most people would consider grabbing people off the streets and throwing them in a van as "reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing a felony".

My assumption is that Acts of Congress written into public law are enforceable.

If that assumption is valid, you left out the part where DHS can "make arrests without a warrant for any offense against the United States committed in the presence of the officer or agent".

Does assaulting federal officers, arson, and damaging government property count?

18 Arrested, Facing Federal Charges After Weeknight Protests at Federal Courthouse in Portland

I don't think anyone here is making the argument that peaceful assembly is anything other than one of the many freedoms that we enjoy as American citizens protected under our bill of rights. However, lawlessness and wanton destruction of federal property is a step further than most find to be palatable. I certainly don't like seeing my tax dollar funded structures being torched and more of my tax dollars being spent to go stop the idiots from torching them!
07-27-2020 08:03 PM
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Doo Offline
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RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
Don’t tell George Washington
07-27-2020 08:19 PM
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RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
(07-27-2020 08:03 PM)DtownBronco Wrote:  
(07-27-2020 06:48 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  First of all, just because a law was put into place doesn't mean its correct or doesn't violate civil liberties.

Secondly, when the DHS is admitting openly that many of these arrests are in their words "proactive", I don't think most people would consider grabbing people off the streets and throwing them in a van as "reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing a felony".

My assumption is that Acts of Congress written into public law are enforceable.

If that assumption is valid, you left out the part where DHS can "make arrests without a warrant for any offense against the United States committed in the presence of the officer or agent".

Does assaulting federal officers, arson, and damaging government property count?

18 Arrested, Facing Federal Charges After Weeknight Protests at Federal Courthouse in Portland

I don't think anyone here is making the argument that peaceful assembly is anything other than one of the many freedoms that we enjoy as American citizens protected under our bill of rights. However, lawlessness and wanton destruction of federal property is a step further than most find to be palatable. I certainly don't like seeing my tax dollar funded structures being torched and more of my tax dollars being spent to go stop the idiots from torching them!
The problem is they aren't only arresting people who commit crimes in front of them.
07-27-2020 08:40 PM
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Boca Rocket Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
(07-27-2020 08:40 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  
(07-27-2020 08:03 PM)DtownBronco Wrote:  
(07-27-2020 06:48 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  First of all, just because a law was put into place doesn't mean its correct or doesn't violate civil liberties.

Secondly, when the DHS is admitting openly that many of these arrests are in their words "proactive", I don't think most people would consider grabbing people off the streets and throwing them in a van as "reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing a felony".

My assumption is that Acts of Congress written into public law are enforceable.

If that assumption is valid, you left out the part where DHS can "make arrests without a warrant for any offense against the United States committed in the presence of the officer or agent".

Does assaulting federal officers, arson, and damaging government property count?

18 Arrested, Facing Federal Charges After Weeknight Protests at Federal Courthouse in Portland

I don't think anyone here is making the argument that peaceful assembly is anything other than one of the many freedoms that we enjoy as American citizens protected under our bill of rights. However, lawlessness and wanton destruction of federal property is a step further than most find to be palatable. I certainly don't like seeing my tax dollar funded structures being torched and more of my tax dollars being spent to go stop the idiots from torching them!
The problem is they aren't only arresting people who commit crimes in front of them.

I suppose there no cameras on Federal Buildings.
Check the US Codes for Accessory After the Fact.
07-28-2020 09:00 AM
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Post: #16
RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
(07-28-2020 09:00 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  
(07-27-2020 08:40 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  
(07-27-2020 08:03 PM)DtownBronco Wrote:  
(07-27-2020 06:48 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  First of all, just because a law was put into place doesn't mean its correct or doesn't violate civil liberties.

Secondly, when the DHS is admitting openly that many of these arrests are in their words "proactive", I don't think most people would consider grabbing people off the streets and throwing them in a van as "reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing a felony".

My assumption is that Acts of Congress written into public law are enforceable.

If that assumption is valid, you left out the part where DHS can "make arrests without a warrant for any offense against the United States committed in the presence of the officer or agent".

Does assaulting federal officers, arson, and damaging government property count?

18 Arrested, Facing Federal Charges After Weeknight Protests at Federal Courthouse in Portland

I don't think anyone here is making the argument that peaceful assembly is anything other than one of the many freedoms that we enjoy as American citizens protected under our bill of rights. However, lawlessness and wanton destruction of federal property is a step further than most find to be palatable. I certainly don't like seeing my tax dollar funded structures being torched and more of my tax dollars being spent to go stop the idiots from torching them!
The problem is they aren't only arresting people who commit crimes in front of them.

I suppose there no cameras on Federal Buildings.
Check the US Codes for Accessory After the Fact.

https://lawandcrime.com/legal-analysis/t...stitution/
07-28-2020 09:27 AM
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DtownBronco Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
(07-28-2020 09:27 AM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  
(07-28-2020 09:00 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  
(07-27-2020 08:40 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  
(07-27-2020 08:03 PM)DtownBronco Wrote:  
(07-27-2020 06:48 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  First of all, just because a law was put into place doesn't mean its correct or doesn't violate civil liberties.

Secondly, when the DHS is admitting openly that many of these arrests are in their words "proactive", I don't think most people would consider grabbing people off the streets and throwing them in a van as "reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing a felony".

My assumption is that Acts of Congress written into public law are enforceable.

If that assumption is valid, you left out the part where DHS can "make arrests without a warrant for any offense against the United States committed in the presence of the officer or agent".

Does assaulting federal officers, arson, and damaging government property count?

18 Arrested, Facing Federal Charges After Weeknight Protests at Federal Courthouse in Portland

I don't think anyone here is making the argument that peaceful assembly is anything other than one of the many freedoms that we enjoy as American citizens protected under our bill of rights. However, lawlessness and wanton destruction of federal property is a step further than most find to be palatable. I certainly don't like seeing my tax dollar funded structures being torched and more of my tax dollars being spent to go stop the idiots from torching them!
The problem is they aren't only arresting people who commit crimes in front of them.

I suppose there no cameras on Federal Buildings.
Check the US Codes for Accessory After the Fact.

https://lawandcrime.com/legal-analysis/t...stitution/

I'm not sure how detaining somebody for questioning when they are willfully and knowingly identifying themselves as part of a group that is perpetrating acts that are "cognizable under the laws of the United States" as being illegal is stepping on their constitutional rights. As far as I understand DHS operating under the umbrella of CBP has a bit more leeway than other law enforcement entities when it comes to the establishment of probable cause prior to making an arrest. I may be wrong and I'm sure some legal scholars here can correct me if I am.

In any case, I'm going to hazard a guess that words like "communist" "insurrection" and "domestic terrorism" are going to be associated with these folks here pretty soon. Then I think the notion as to whether or not their constitutional rights were violated will be an afterthought... Just my purely speculative $0.02.
07-28-2020 10:19 AM
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Cucumber Salad Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
(07-27-2020 05:55 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  Not the point. We're talking about the role of government here. Yes or no-- should unidentified federal cops be driving around cities and grabbing people off the streets?

It is the point. Everything happens in context. As you describe it in a vacuum of course the answer is no. But it’s not in a vacuum and it’s not devoid of context as you must have it in order to make you silly point.

Shortly after Minneapolis Philadelphia was attacked by rioters and looters. I watch it on live TV. The host of marked police cars we are torched and destroyed and used as battering rams by protesters who had confiscated the cars. Easy targets because they were marked.

Here’s a litany of media tapes with the audacity to think you’re so dull it as the fires burn in the background they can say to you with a straight face that the protests are basically peaceful. Basically? As buildings burn in the background? As police officers are murdered?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BbKvhnLoV0...e=youtu.be
07-29-2020 11:51 AM
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Post: #19
RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
(07-29-2020 11:51 AM)Cucumber Salad Wrote:  
(07-27-2020 05:55 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  Not the point. We're talking about the role of government here. Yes or no-- should unidentified federal cops be driving around cities and grabbing people off the streets?

It is the point. Everything happens in context. As you describe it in a vacuum of course the answer is no. But it’s not in a vacuum and it’s not devoid of context as you must have it in order to make you silly point.

Shortly after Minneapolis Philadelphia was attacked by rioters and looters. I watch it on live TV. The host of marked police cars we are torched and destroyed and used as battering rams by protesters who had confiscated the cars. Easy targets because they were marked.

Here’s a litany of media tapes with the audacity to think you’re so dull it as the fires burn in the background they can say to you with a straight face that the protests are basically peaceful. Basically? As buildings burn in the background? As police officers are murdered?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BbKvhnLoV0...e=youtu.be

I'm not denying violence has been involved in some (certainly not all) of the protests.

I asked you a direct question and despite "providing context" you failed to answer.
07-29-2020 12:24 PM
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Post: #20
RE: Unidentified federal police putting Portland protesters in unmarked vans
(07-28-2020 10:19 AM)DtownBronco Wrote:  
(07-28-2020 09:27 AM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  
(07-28-2020 09:00 AM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  
(07-27-2020 08:40 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  
(07-27-2020 08:03 PM)DtownBronco Wrote:  My assumption is that Acts of Congress written into public law are enforceable.

If that assumption is valid, you left out the part where DHS can "make arrests without a warrant for any offense against the United States committed in the presence of the officer or agent".

Does assaulting federal officers, arson, and damaging government property count?

18 Arrested, Facing Federal Charges After Weeknight Protests at Federal Courthouse in Portland

I don't think anyone here is making the argument that peaceful assembly is anything other than one of the many freedoms that we enjoy as American citizens protected under our bill of rights. However, lawlessness and wanton destruction of federal property is a step further than most find to be palatable. I certainly don't like seeing my tax dollar funded structures being torched and more of my tax dollars being spent to go stop the idiots from torching them!
The problem is they aren't only arresting people who commit crimes in front of them.

I suppose there no cameras on Federal Buildings.
Check the US Codes for Accessory After the Fact.

https://lawandcrime.com/legal-analysis/t...stitution/

they are willfully and knowingly identifying themselves as part of a group that is perpetrating acts that are "cognizable under the laws of the United States" as being illegal

Are they? This is news to me.
07-29-2020 12:25 PM
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