(07-23-2020 11:33 AM)gdunn Wrote:  So does that mean that hip hop slang gonna be used or can the millennials use f'n emojis and text shorthand as well?

In the future, hip hop slang is going to become the poetry that all the school kids will be forced to learn, and they'll ***** and moan about how learning it will be useless and that it's archaic language that only the nerds and linguists should study...

(07-23-2020 09:35 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 08:46 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 07:17 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 12:11 AM)JRsec Wrote:  The bottom line is this:

If they can't learn, or refuse to learn, we will elevate their ignorance as our culture. And this has been going for decades. It is why Webster's now lists commonly misspelled words as alternative spellings. It is why RAP lyrics are called poetry.

When was the last rime you heard proper grammar from you local TV news team? Subject verb agreement and when to say I or me are all but gone like the dropped ly at the end of adverbs. "She danced pretty." The sad thing is that the ignorance of the language is so appalling today that you will find that you don't even pick up on the mistakes when you hear them made. I once heard a local publisher exclaim "She done that already." when asked about a task assigned to the advertising manager.

We can't excel when we accept ignorance as culture. It's just that simple. Excellence always seeks betterment. Laziness seeks the lowest common denominator. We have a sorry, lazy, excuse making society. Our days are numbered.

To explain to people why it is critical to excel one need only give this fact. The sun will go supernova. And when it does all life on earth ceases. We will never truly explore space if we travel at our slowest learner's pace. Every minute we lose trying to fix the problems of the slowest is a minute lost securing the destiny of the human race. And globally when we cease to pursue excellence we fall behind and in our world falling behind means you will be conquered.

And remember this, when we started focusing on the importance of education we started highlighting the importance of ignorance to keep educators important. The more they get paid the less they teach and the more they justify their next raise. The raises shouldn't be based on increased need for education. They should be based on results.

I agree wrt the refusal to learn and/or forced quotas have resulted in lower quality students who can't do the work that prior generations were capable of. I think much of it is due to the expansion of colleges and universities in order to "feed the beast" to keep the money trains rolling.

Regarding language, it's always a fascinating thing to study. What you described made me instinctively reflect on changes to languages over time and how people may have reacted to these changes. It would be awesome to go back in time to see if there were people who were shocked to see how Latin was degrading around them in the Iberian peninsula, Gaul and Italian peninsulas after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. I've read more recently that German was starting to lose some of the cases for possessive, but not sure about that since language and grammar are not my primary course of study. Granted modern English was created from a blending of Old English (or was it an Anglo-Saxon ancestor language?) and French to create a new language that dropped a bunch of cases for nouns, pronouns and verbs that were largely retained in German.

Thee, thou, thine and thy were dropped from English and replaced by you and yours.

agree....the development of language over time is a very interesting study...

I'm one that loves playing with <sic>...it's why Twain is my fave...

Words have meaning and nuance gentlemen. The country's which achieve the most are the country's in which the language has the most precise meaning. When language breaks down meaning breaks down and communication breaks down with it. It leads to mistakes and decline.

I give you the example of those who merely guess at the made up names of pharmaceuticals working third shifts in hospitals when patients families are seldom there. They frequently manage to give the wrong drugs to the wrong patients by misreading both the drug's name and that of the patient. When the mistakes were found due to an investigation into the death of a patient they found that similarly sounding names were the cause of the confusion. Well that an the ignorance of the third shift nurses.

This is one reason I resent the cultural misappropriation of language. Taking a drag on a fag in 1920 meant taking a puff on a cigarette. I don't have to tell you what it means now. Stink that is part of idiocracy. "Full latte?" And the word "gay" can hardly be associated with the homosexual lifestyle. Confusion!

So I challenge your and Miko's assumptions.

Germany has issues, precision in language is not one of them. England has taken a long but stead decline with civilization. It began with the colonization of the British Isle by foreign cultures. The language evolved from a mish mash of Latin, Nordic, and French and into many different dialects within the isles before they colonized the world. It was wonderfully descriptive because of it and almost proved to be the counter of my argument here. But the KJV of the Bible, and the Constitution do not translate well into the modern version of our language because the nuance of 1604 and the late 1700's does not translate well to our times. This leads the young to think of the documents as antiquated and irrelevant, when they've never been more prescient.

That said thou shalt not COVID anything that is they neighbor's. Not his wife. Not his man servant, nor maid servant, not his ox nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's might not be such a bad misreading.

For that matter it might not be bad to understand the 2nd amendment this way, "You got the right to pack heat. And nobody can look through your **** unless they judge say so."

yes they do...however, I view the 'why' as a consequence....therefore, a victim of circumstance is unavoidable as time passes.

to also extrapolate relative to your summation, there's a big difference between a bbs and how a justice interprets 'law'....the micro side is about Rutgers patronization of language "debauchery'...therefore, it lends to your and our points over time...this is not the crux en macro, but a microcosm within time...

I'll leave ya with this (have posted b4).....command of language is numbero uno en habla....everything else is an additional asset gained...it's why dogs "bark" and those with opposable thumbs, build....therefore, we're now building dog houses.... :cheeky:, Ja?:

we agree on subject and how it develops. ..we simply differ on 'terms'...that's simply being human, pal...

(07-23-2020 09:35 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 08:46 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 07:17 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 12:11 AM)JRsec Wrote:  The bottom line is this:

If they can't learn, or refuse to learn, we will elevate their ignorance as our culture. And this has been going for decades. It is why Webster's now lists commonly misspelled words as alternative spellings. It is why RAP lyrics are called poetry.

When was the last rime you heard proper grammar from you local TV news team? Subject verb agreement and when to say I or me are all but gone like the dropped ly at the end of adverbs. "She danced pretty." The sad thing is that the ignorance of the language is so appalling today that you will find that you don't even pick up on the mistakes when you hear them made. I once heard a local publisher exclaim "She done that already." when asked about a task assigned to the advertising manager.

We can't excel when we accept ignorance as culture. It's just that simple. Excellence always seeks betterment. Laziness seeks the lowest common denominator. We have a sorry, lazy, excuse making society. Our days are numbered.

To explain to people why it is critical to excel one need only give this fact. The sun will go supernova. And when it does all life on earth ceases. We will never truly explore space if we travel at our slowest learner's pace. Every minute we lose trying to fix the problems of the slowest is a minute lost securing the destiny of the human race. And globally when we cease to pursue excellence we fall behind and in our world falling behind means you will be conquered.

And remember this, when we started focusing on the importance of education we started highlighting the importance of ignorance to keep educators important. The more they get paid the less they teach and the more they justify their next raise. The raises shouldn't be based on increased need for education. They should be based on results.

I agree wrt the refusal to learn and/or forced quotas have resulted in lower quality students who can't do the work that prior generations were capable of. I think much of it is due to the expansion of colleges and universities in order to "feed the beast" to keep the money trains rolling.

Regarding language, it's always a fascinating thing to study. What you described made me instinctively reflect on changes to languages over time and how people may have reacted to these changes. It would be awesome to go back in time to see if there were people who were shocked to see how Latin was degrading around them in the Iberian peninsula, Gaul and Italian peninsulas after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. I've read more recently that German was starting to lose some of the cases for possessive, but not sure about that since language and grammar are not my primary course of study. Granted modern English was created from a blending of Old English (or was it an Anglo-Saxon ancestor language?) and French to create a new language that dropped a bunch of cases for nouns, pronouns and verbs that were largely retained in German.

Thee, thou, thine and thy were dropped from English and replaced by you and yours.

agree....the development of language over time is a very interesting study...

I'm one that loves playing with <sic>...it's why Twain is my fave...

Words have meaning and nuance gentlemen. The country's which achieve the most are the country's in which the language has the most precise meaning. When language breaks down meaning breaks down and communication breaks down with it. It leads to mistakes and decline.

I give you the example of those who merely guess at the made up names of pharmaceuticals working third shifts in hospitals when patients families are seldom there. They frequently manage to give the wrong drugs to the wrong patients by misreading both the drug's name and that of the patient. When the mistakes were found due to an investigation into the death of a patient they found that similarly sounding names were the cause of the confusion. Well that an the ignorance of the third shift nurses.

This is one reason I resent the cultural misappropriation of language. Taking a drag on a fag in 1920 meant taking a puff on a cigarette. I don't have to tell you what it means now. Stink that is part of idiocracy. "Full latte?" And the word "gay" can hardly be associated with the homosexual lifestyle. Confusion!

So I challenge your and Miko's assumptions.

Germany has issues, precision in language is not one of them. England has taken a long but stead decline with civilization. It began with the colonization of the British Isle by foreign cultures. The language evolved from a mish mash of Latin, Nordic, and French and into many different dialects within the isles before they colonized the world. It was wonderfully descriptive because of it and almost proved to be the counter of my argument here. But the KJV of the Bible, and the Constitution do not translate well into the modern version of our language because the nuance of 1604 and the late 1700's does not translate well to our times. This leads the young to think of the documents as antiquated and irrelevant, when they've never been more prescient.

That said thou shalt not COVID anything that is they neighbor's. Not his wife. Not his man servant, nor maid servant, not his ox nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's might not be such a bad misreading.

For that matter it might not be bad to understand the 2nd amendment this way, "You got the right to pack heat. And nobody can look through your **** unless they judge say so."

I agree that language that is designed for effective communication for all of us - from the most detail driven nuanced technical writing to the most informal discussions among friends. Based on vocabulary alone, modern English is a very flexible language to meet the needs of virtually everyone. Regarding what is happening at Rutgers, it's flat out wrong for them to ignore formal grammar and syntax.

I think there are several things going on here wrt modern American English:

1. Some of it is due to a loss of standards as shown in the example of this thread at Rutgers. I think the primary root cause for this is the increase in the number of students allowed to come to the universities vs generations ago where it was truly reserved for the elite. Just like with voting rights - as these expanded to encompass more people, the political nuances and understanding has degraded because the unwashed masses are allowed to participate.
2. As a language, English is still evolving. The introduction of smart phones has altered communication to the point that it can also spill over into the spoken and formally written word. Aside from that though, it does seem as if various languages have been trying to prune grammar rules for some time. English dropped the distinct 2nd person singular pronouns in favor of a merger of 2nd person singular and plural. Now will texting language become so dominant that it permanently changes the grammar and syntax rules we use now, or will it become a more formalized version of short hand? Not sure at this point in time.
3. I went Joe Biden after the 2nd point here, so unfortunately several turned into 2 points... LOL!
   

(07-23-2020 12:24 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 09:35 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 08:46 AM)stinkfist Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 07:17 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 12:11 AM)JRsec Wrote:  The bottom line is this:

If they can't learn, or refuse to learn, we will elevate their ignorance as our culture. And this has been going for decades. It is why Webster's now lists commonly misspelled words as alternative spellings. It is why RAP lyrics are called poetry.

When was the last rime you heard proper grammar from you local TV news team? Subject verb agreement and when to say I or me are all but gone like the dropped ly at the end of adverbs. "She danced pretty." The sad thing is that the ignorance of the language is so appalling today that you will find that you don't even pick up on the mistakes when you hear them made. I once heard a local publisher exclaim "She done that already." when asked about a task assigned to the advertising manager.

We can't excel when we accept ignorance as culture. It's just that simple. Excellence always seeks betterment. Laziness seeks the lowest common denominator. We have a sorry, lazy, excuse making society. Our days are numbered.

To explain to people why it is critical to excel one need only give this fact. The sun will go supernova. And when it does all life on earth ceases. We will never truly explore space if we travel at our slowest learner's pace. Every minute we lose trying to fix the problems of the slowest is a minute lost securing the destiny of the human race. And globally when we cease to pursue excellence we fall behind and in our world falling behind means you will be conquered.

And remember this, when we started focusing on the importance of education we started highlighting the importance of ignorance to keep educators important. The more they get paid the less they teach and the more they justify their next raise. The raises shouldn't be based on increased need for education. They should be based on results.

I agree wrt the refusal to learn and/or forced quotas have resulted in lower quality students who can't do the work that prior generations were capable of. I think much of it is due to the expansion of colleges and universities in order to "feed the beast" to keep the money trains rolling.

Regarding language, it's always a fascinating thing to study. What you described made me instinctively reflect on changes to languages over time and how people may have reacted to these changes. It would be awesome to go back in time to see if there were people who were shocked to see how Latin was degrading around them in the Iberian peninsula, Gaul and Italian peninsulas after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. I've read more recently that German was starting to lose some of the cases for possessive, but not sure about that since language and grammar are not my primary course of study. Granted modern English was created from a blending of Old English (or was it an Anglo-Saxon ancestor language?) and French to create a new language that dropped a bunch of cases for nouns, pronouns and verbs that were largely retained in German.

Thee, thou, thine and thy were dropped from English and replaced by you and yours.

agree....the development of language over time is a very interesting study...

I'm one that loves playing with <sic>...it's why Twain is my fave...

Words have meaning and nuance gentlemen. The country's which achieve the most are the country's in which the language has the most precise meaning. When language breaks down meaning breaks down and communication breaks down with it. It leads to mistakes and decline.

I give you the example of those who merely guess at the made up names of pharmaceuticals working third shifts in hospitals when patients families are seldom there. They frequently manage to give the wrong drugs to the wrong patients by misreading both the drug's name and that of the patient. When the mistakes were found due to an investigation into the death of a patient they found that similarly sounding names were the cause of the confusion. Well that an the ignorance of the third shift nurses.

This is one reason I resent the cultural misappropriation of language. Taking a drag on a fag in 1920 meant taking a puff on a cigarette. I don't have to tell you what it means now. Stink that is part of idiocracy. "Full latte?" And the word "gay" can hardly be associated with the homosexual lifestyle. Confusion!

So I challenge your and Miko's assumptions.

Germany has issues, precision in language is not one of them. England has taken a long but stead decline with civilization. It began with the colonization of the British Isle by foreign cultures. The language evolved from a mish mash of Latin, Nordic, and French and into many different dialects within the isles before they colonized the world. It was wonderfully descriptive because of it and almost proved to be the counter of my argument here. But the KJV of the Bible, and the Constitution do not translate well into the modern version of our language because the nuance of 1604 and the late 1700's does not translate well to our times. This leads the young to think of the documents as antiquated and irrelevant, when they've never been more prescient.

That said thou shalt not COVID anything that is they neighbor's. Not his wife. Not his man servant, nor maid servant, not his ox nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's might not be such a bad misreading.

For that matter it might not be bad to understand the 2nd amendment this way, "You got the right to pack heat. And nobody can look through your **** unless they judge say so."

I agree that language that is designed for effective communication for all of us - from the most detail driven nuanced technical writing to the most informal discussions among friends. Based on vocabulary alone, modern English is a very flexible language to meet the needs of virtually everyone. Regarding what is happening at Rutgers, it's flat out wrong for them to ignore formal grammar and syntax.

I think there are several things going on here wrt modern American English:

1. Some of it is due to a loss of standards as shown in the example of this thread at Rutgers. I think the primary root cause for this is the increase in the number of students allowed to come to the universities vs generations ago where it was truly reserved for the elite. Just like with voting rights - as these expanded to encompass more people, the political nuances and understanding has degraded because the unwashed masses are allowed to participate.
2. As a language, English is still evolving. The introduction of smart phones has altered communication to the point that it can also spill over into the spoken and formally written word. Aside from that though, it does seem as if various languages have been trying to prune grammar rules for some time. English dropped the distinct 2nd person singular pronouns in favor of a merger of 2nd person singular and plural. Now will texting language become so dominant that it permanently changes the grammar and syntax rules we use now, or will it become a more formalized version of short hand? Not sure at this point in time.
3. I went Joe Biden after the 2nd point here, so unfortunately several turned into 2 points... LOL!
   

Miko, I'll take #2 a step further . ...... "the best design is the simplest one that works." - Albert Einstein

@effective

(07-23-2020 11:27 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 10:53 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  My mother was a teacher for 31 years. When she retired she lamented that the public education system was "teaching to the lowest common denominator." Well...Now it seems that has spread to higher education.

Higher Education has many contributing factors:
1. Hire Ivy educated instructors and increase your academic rating. This breeds the fallacy of accepting those who come from just a few trees of thought.
2. Reliance upon government subsidies. This ties their hands to only teach those policies acceptable to the government.
3. The discovery that increasing enrollment increased the revenue for the school that helped them all get raises.
4. That passing the ignorant kept the parents happy which kept the money flowing.

Add those together and you get worthless investments that pass the latest leftist thinking from Harvard and Yale and Princeton off to everyone, all of whom will pass unless absolutely brain dead, and we enter the culture of certification. You aren't hired on what you know and well you do what you do, but rather you are hired because of the paper you hold and the more you paid for the paper the more likely you are to be hired and that too is a form of discrimination inasmuch as it discriminates against those who actually know how to do what they do in favor of those who were wealthy enough to get the piece of paper.

And in that world useless educated idiots flourish, the able languish, and we fall behind as a people.

1) No academic ranking system asks about where professors got their degrees. Professorships really are a meritocracy - the professors at the Big Ten school where I got my PhD from were trained in schools ranging from the top Ivies and Chicago to Oklahoma and the 25th best school in Italy.

2) Elite education in this country does not rely on government subsidies. Harvard, Chicago, Stanford are 100% private enterprises. Few of their students get federal tuition assistance, and they receive little government research funding outside of a few select fields like medicine and military research. New Englanders in particular are proud of their market-based economic model for higher ed, which is very different from the government-based model in Red states.

3) What is wrong with increasing enrollment? Don't most people want to spread their ideas to more people? Don't most people want to make higher salaries? In fact, I would argue that higher ed is in the worst trouble in states (like Illinois and California) where incentives from government are skewed against increasing enrollment.

4) I agree that passing the ignorant has become a bigger problem. But it's less of a problem at top schools than it is at mediocre schools.

(07-23-2020 06:11 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 11:27 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 10:53 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  My mother was a teacher for 31 years. When she retired she lamented that the public education system was "teaching to the lowest common denominator." Well...Now it seems that has spread to higher education.

Higher Education has many contributing factors:
1. Hire Ivy educated instructors and increase your academic rating. This breeds the fallacy of accepting those who come from just a few trees of thought.
2. Reliance upon government subsidies. This ties their hands to only teach those policies acceptable to the government.
3. The discovery that increasing enrollment increased the revenue for the school that helped them all get raises.
4. That passing the ignorant kept the parents happy which kept the money flowing.

Add those together and you get worthless investments that pass the latest leftist thinking from Harvard and Yale and Princeton off to everyone, all of whom will pass unless absolutely brain dead, and we enter the culture of certification. You aren't hired on what you know and well you do what you do, but rather you are hired because of the paper you hold and the more you paid for the paper the more likely you are to be hired and that too is a form of discrimination inasmuch as it discriminates against those who actually know how to do what they do in favor of those who were wealthy enough to get the piece of paper.

And in that world useless educated idiots flourish, the able languish, and we fall behind as a people.

1) No academic ranking system asks about where professors got their degrees. Professorships really are a meritocracy - the professors at the Big Ten school where I got my PhD from were trained in schools ranging from the top Ivies and Chicago to Oklahoma and the 25th best school in Italy.

2) Elite education in this country does not rely on government subsidies. Harvard, Chicago, Stanford are 100% private enterprises. Few of their students get federal tuition assistance, and they receive little government research funding outside of a few select fields like medicine and military research. New Englanders in particular are proud of their market-based economic model for higher ed, which is very different from the government-based model in Red states.

3) What is wrong with increasing enrollment? Don't most people want to spread their ideas to more people? Don't most people want to make higher salaries? In fact, I would argue that higher ed is in the worst trouble in states (like Illinois and California) where incentives from government are skewed against increasing enrollment.

4) I agree that passing the ignorant has become a bigger problem. But it's less of a problem at top schools than it is at mediocre schools.

The top schools get VAST sums of federal research dollars. Harvard-over $560 million last year in federal dollars.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2...s-economy/

(07-23-2020 06:11 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 11:27 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(07-23-2020 10:53 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  My mother was a teacher for 31 years. When she retired she lamented that the public education system was "teaching to the lowest common denominator." Well...Now it seems that has spread to higher education.

Higher Education has many contributing factors:
1. Hire Ivy educated instructors and increase your academic rating. This breeds the fallacy of accepting those who come from just a few trees of thought.
2. Reliance upon government subsidies. This ties their hands to only teach those policies acceptable to the government.
3. The discovery that increasing enrollment increased the revenue for the school that helped them all get raises.
4. That passing the ignorant kept the parents happy which kept the money flowing.

Add those together and you get worthless investments that pass the latest leftist thinking from Harvard and Yale and Princeton off to everyone, all of whom will pass unless absolutely brain dead, and we enter the culture of certification. You aren't hired on what you know and well you do what you do, but rather you are hired because of the paper you hold and the more you paid for the paper the more likely you are to be hired and that too is a form of discrimination inasmuch as it discriminates against those who actually know how to do what they do in favor of those who were wealthy enough to get the piece of paper.

And in that world useless educated idiots flourish, the able languish, and we fall behind as a people.

1) No academic ranking system asks about where professors got their degrees. Professorships really are a meritocracy - the professors at the Big Ten school where I got my PhD from were trained in schools ranging from the top Ivies and Chicago to Oklahoma and the 25th best school in Italy.

2) Elite education in this country does not rely on government subsidies. Harvard, Chicago, Stanford are 100% private enterprises. Few of their students get federal tuition assistance, and they receive little government research funding outside of a few select fields like medicine and military research. New Englanders in particular are proud of their market-based economic model for higher ed, which is very different from the government-based model in Red states.

3) What is wrong with increasing enrollment? Don't most people want to spread their ideas to more people? Don't most people want to make higher salaries? In fact, I would argue that higher ed is in the worst trouble in states (like Illinois and California) where incentives from government are skewed against increasing enrollment.

4) I agree that passing the ignorant has become a bigger problem. But it's less of a problem at top schools than it is at mediocre schools.

Of course it is a meritocracy but you just proved my point. Your professors came from the Ivies, Chicago, and a foreign institution in Italy. Loose translation the Ivies, major academic giants not in the Ivies and ARWU ranked schools abroad.

Ivey consciousness was right up there with published works at Emory. If you have the former (Ivy Education) it is much easier to be published. It is a certification circle jerk. Do you have the certificate and if so how high a certificate do you hold. It is how academia works. I noticed you professors weren't from Clemson, Texas Tech, San Diego State, Ohio, and Illinois State. For a world in which the top 5% can succeed anywhere a further delimiting factor is the quality of the certification, not necessarily the capability and work.