In late 2012, the Big East still had the Catholic 7, Cincinnati , USF, and UConn as the onlythen-current, scheduled-to-return members of the conference. WVU was already in the Big 12. Syracuse and Pitt were set to join the ACC the next year. Notre Dame, Louisville and Rutgers were set to join their new leagues no later than 2015. Temple was a football-only Big East member set to join for all sports the next year.

I'm assuming that all the schools who had already left, or who were already set to leave, had resigned their voting privileges on membership. I'm not sure about then FB only Temple.

Did the incoming members (UCF, Houston, SMU, Memphis, football only Navy, FB only Boise State, and FB only San Diego State) have voting privileges?

If the answer is no, how did ECU football and Tulane get into the league? Even if we assume Cincy, USF, and UConn voted for them, the Catholic 7 was openly against them.

Quote:"The basketball schools are not thrilled with Tulane and what they will do to the league's RPI," said a league source from a football-playing member. "They were not all that excited with that addition."

The source added that "the basketball schools would have fallen off the ledge if we would have added East Carolina as a full member and what that would have done to the basketball league."

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/stor...ources-say

So which schools, exactly, voted them in?

(07-14-2020 11:27 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  In late 2012, the Big East still had the Catholic 7, Cincinnati , USF, and UConn as the onlythen-current, scheduled-to-return members of the conference. WVU was already in the Big 12. Syracuse and Pitt were set to join the ACC the next year. Notre Dame, Louisville and Rutgers were set to join their new leagues no later than 2015. Temple was a football-only Big East member set to join for all sports the next year.

I'm assuming that all the schools who had already left, or who were already set to leave, had resigned their voting privileges on membership. I'm not sure about then FB only Temple.

Did the incoming members (UCF, Houston, SMU, Memphis, football only Navy, FB only Boise State, and FB only San Diego State) have voting privileges?

If the answer is no, how did ECU football and Tulane get into the league? Even if we assume Cincy, USF, and UConn voted for them, the Catholic 7 was openly against them.

Quote:"The basketball schools are not thrilled with Tulane and what they will do to the league's RPI," said a league source from a football-playing member. "They were not all that excited with that addition."

The source added that "the basketball schools would have fallen off the ledge if we would have added East Carolina as a full member and what that would have done to the basketball league."

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/stor...ources-say

So which schools, exactly, voted them in?

It's been a minute, but I think we were added as football only at first. When the schools that don't play sports moved out, then we added all of our hobbies.

I always figured the Catholic-7 had solidified their plans to exit with the Big East name and asked the new members if they wanted Tulane and East Carolina. The new members said "yes" so those schools were approved by the Catholic-7.

Rutgers and Louisville were still in, still voting, along with Cincy, UConn, USF and Temple. Those for sure where your football voting members.

IIRC the league had a weird governing system where football schools only voted on football matters, all the Basketball schools on Basketball matters, or something like that. Also schools, although more independently minded than in the past, tended to just accept the commissioner's choice.

As for Tulane, that may well have been a case where the C7 and ND University Presidents broke with their ADs because they liked Tulane as a peer institution, Basketball be damned. ECU they drew the line.

But the pattern was clear, high academic schools Pitt, Syracuse and Rutgers were being replaced with low standards Memphis (another Louisville), ECU and UCF. These were not what the C7 considered peers as institutions, which is one of the reasons why they split.

(07-14-2020 11:39 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  I always figured the Catholic-7 had solidified their plans to exit with the Big East name and asked the new members if they wanted Tulane and East Carolina. The new members said "yes" so those schools were approved by the Catholic-7.

From reading the article, it sounds like Tulane was added before they decided to leave. It also speculates on whether Temple gets a vote on non-football issues. This would imply that the non-sports schools didn't have a vote on football.

i.e. ECU was probably voted in by UConn, Cindy, USF, Louisville, Temple, and Rutgers.

Louisville didn't vote, they were already leaving. Doesn't sound like the bball members had any input.

https://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketb...e-addition

(07-14-2020 11:55 AM)MU88 Wrote:  Louisville didn't vote, they were already leaving. Doesn't sound like the bball members had any input.

https://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketb...e-addition

Which would make sense. AAC has affiliate members for other garbage like rowing and womens lacrosse. I wouldn't expect them to get a vote on a sports add.

That’s a really good question. Were Rutgers and Louisville still voting even though they were mere days from leaving?

I assume Pitt and Syracuse weren’t voting because it was already know that they were resigning their membership.

I’m not sure what the bylaws were but I imagine that they needed 2/3rds or perhaps even 3/4ths of the membership voting yes to approve membership invitations. I can’t see how they could have added Tulane as a full member and ECU as a football only without Catholic 7 votes.

The great irony of course is, after the Big 12 for the rule changed, hosting a CCG was possible with 10 schools. The Catholic 7 + a new basketball school + the 8 full member football schools + fb only Navy and ECU could have carried on as an 8/8 conference with 10 fb members and played a CCG. No split needed, no invite to Tulane or Tulsa needed or ECU Olympic sports.

A majority of the C7 must have voted for Tulane, or I don't think they could have gotten in. I believe the Big East as a 75% supermajority requirement for a school to be added as a full member. The only voting members would have been the C7 plus UConn, USF and Cincinnati. To make 75%, 5 of the C7 would have had to vote yes.

I can't find an article about the actual vote, but Marquette is quoted as criticizing the invitation. It's possible, of course, this complaining was an after the fact effort to justify the decision to blow up the conference.

The ultimate split was driven as much by the television deal Fox Sports made to the C7 as the invitation of Tulane to the conference. Fox needed additional winter sports programming to support its launch of FS1. By withdrawing from the Big East, the C7 was able to walk away from ESPN's right of first refusal with the Big East. It was a perfectly timed opportunity for both.

So, the question is whether the C7 would have stuck around if the Big East simply stopped adding football schools. At the time, in addition to the C7, the Big East had UConn, Cincinnati, USF, Houston, SMU, UCF, Memphis and Temple, with Navy, Boise St. and San Diego St. as football only. Tulane was the only additional basketball member accepted at that time (ECU was football only). My guess is that the Fox opportunity would still have been too attractive for the C7 to ignore.

Tulane was approved by the C7, yes. ECU was only a football member, thus the C7 did not have any voting powers over them. However, it was widely viewed, even by the C7, that ECU would eventually be a full member in time.

The C7 broke away when it was determined that the vision and promise of the "New" Big East, one that was focused strictly on large media markets (regardless of then on-field and on-court athletic success) being leveraged to recoup a majority of the lost value when Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Rutgers and Louisville left. When it quickly became determined that these new additions added very little-to-no additional value, with the TV contract was looking very grim, that pushed the C7 to finally separate and create a new non-football league. When Marquette's AD (and others) publicly criticized the addition of Tulane, it was more because there were promises about what the TV deal was going to look like (with Tulane and ECU in tow) that obviously didn't come true. I think everyone would have been fine with the new hybrid model (with new members) as long as the dollars made sense. When it became clear they no longer did, that pushed a separation into high-gear (and after the voting-in occurred). The heavy interest from Fox just sealed the deal.

It's interesting in retrospect knowing these two things today: 1) UConn returns to the Big East and 2) the AAC was granted a waiver to proceed with 11 members. If knowing everything known today, there's an argument to be made for UConn/Cincinnati/USF voting to dissolve the league at this time instead (and maintain non-football associations with the C7) in order to keep the exit fees and attempt to be viewed as power football programs as Independents, as well as an argument for the AAC originally just moving towards a 10-team league (instead of 12) in attempt to retain a higher payout (Tulsa would absolutely not get invited, and ECU, as a football-only member, possibly gets left as well since Tulane was a full-member upon invitation).

Short answer: We don't know.
We have the old Big East bylaws because of the West Virginia lawsuit.
But we don't have the text of the "pre-nup" that goverbrd relations between the C7, the football side and Notre Dame. Could the football side (UC, UConn, USF, maybe Temple) have added a full member w/o the C7? Maybe?
A few points: after RU and U of L were out, the conference brought in Tulane as a full member and East Carolina as football-only.
The anti-Tulane comments were from Marquette's AD.
.
The way I read the tea-leaves is:
1. The basketball schools bought into the football-drives-tge-bus narrative, and the NFL style big-market strategy.
2. Around November, 2 things were clarified:. The big TV deal wasn't there in 2012. And the backfill cupboard was bare--Tulane was the prettiest girl left in the bar. Therecwere no more Memphis' and Temples' out there, no more UCFs and Houston's and Samus that were at least in top 10 markets.
.
That's when splitting from football became thinkable.
3. I expect that the incoming schools were looped in on Tulane and ECU. Just because Aresco wouldnt wasn't to piss off his incoming bosses. Why would you?

I always heard the vote came after several Hurricanes at Pat O’Briens.

(07-14-2020 11:55 AM)MU88 Wrote:  Louisville didn't vote, they were already leaving. Doesn't sound like the bball members had any input.

https://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketb...e-addition

It's still unknown close to 10 years later-- did Marquette have no input, or did the ADs have no input?

(07-14-2020 12:02 PM)orangefan Wrote:  A majority of the C7 must have voted for Tulane, or I don't think they could have gotten in. I believe the Big East as a 75% supermajority requirement for a school to be added as a full member. The only voting members would have been the C7 plus UConn, USF and Cincinnati. To make 75%, 5 of the C7 would have had to vote yes.

I can't find an article about the actual vote, but Marquette is quoted as criticizing the invitation. It's possible, of course, this complaining was an after the fact effort to justify the decision to blow up the conference.

The ultimate split was driven as much by the television deal Fox Sports made to the C7 as the invitation of Tulane to the conference. Fox needed additional winter sports programming to support its launch of FS1. By withdrawing from the Big East, the C7 was able to walk away from ESPN's right of first refusal with the Big East. It was a perfectly timed opportunity for both.

So, the question is whether the C7 would have stuck around if the Big East simply stopped adding football schools. At the time, in addition to the C7, the Big East had UConn, Cincinnati, USF, Houston, SMU, UCF, Memphis and Temple, with Navy, Boise St. and San Diego St. as football only. Tulane was the only additional basketball member accepted at that time (ECU was football only). My guess is that the Fox opportunity would still have been too attractive for the C7 to ignore.

Interesting. So you think Fox Was going to come in and kill the BE no matter what?

(07-14-2020 11:45 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  But the pattern was clear, high academic schools Pitt, Syracuse and Rutgers were being replaced with low standards Memphis (another Louisville), ECU and UCF. These were not what the C7 considered peers as institutions, which is one of the reasons why they split.

I love to insult Louisville, but comparing it academically to Memphis is not accurate. Memphis has much lower research activity and doctoral degree production, which is what those guys care about it. Louisville is an R-1 like UCF and Temple (as new members of the Big East). Memphis is R-2 like ECU and unlike any of the public schools otherwise in the Big East at that time.

here is a link to the old bylaws. look at section 4.02

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets...Bylaws.pdf

(07-14-2020 02:01 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(07-14-2020 11:45 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  But the pattern was clear, high academic schools Pitt, Syracuse and Rutgers were being replaced with low standards Memphis (another Louisville), ECU and UCF. These were not what the C7 considered peers as institutions, which is one of the reasons why they split.

I love to insult Louisville, but comparing it academically to Memphis is not accurate. Memphis has much lower research activity and doctoral degree production, which is what those guys care about it. Louisville is an R-1 like UCF and Temple (as new members of the Big East). Memphis is R-2 like ECU and unlike any of the public schools otherwise in the Big East at that time.

I was talking AI.

Agree L'ville is a much stronger research school.

(07-14-2020 02:01 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(07-14-2020 11:45 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  But the pattern was clear, high academic schools Pitt, Syracuse and Rutgers were being replaced with low standards Memphis (another Louisville), ECU and UCF. These were not what the C7 considered peers as institutions, which is one of the reasons why they split.

I love to insult Louisville, but comparing it academically to Memphis is not accurate. Memphis has much lower research activity and doctoral degree production, which is what those guys care about it. Louisville is an R-1 like UCF and Temple (as new members of the Big East). Memphis is R-2 like ECU and unlike any of the public schools otherwise in the Big East at that time.

As some of you know, my parents attended Memphis; my brother, Cincinnati; and my sister-law, Louisville.

Academically, Memphis is to Louisville what Louisville is, somewhat, to Cincinnati.

U.S News 2020 rankings for national universities:

UC: 139
UL: 192
UM: 272

One of the great tragedies of conference realignment is the separation of Louisville, Cincy and Memphis. That trio ranks among the strongest "men's basketball threesomes in one league" in college hoops history. Admittedly, I'm biased. But those games back in the day were nasty. Raucous crowds, bad blood, lots on the line ... simply beautiful.

(07-14-2020 03:50 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(07-14-2020 02:01 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(07-14-2020 11:45 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  But the pattern was clear, high academic schools Pitt, Syracuse and Rutgers were being replaced with low standards Memphis (another Louisville), ECU and UCF. These were not what the C7 considered peers as institutions, which is one of the reasons why they split.

I love to insult Louisville, but comparing it academically to Memphis is not accurate. Memphis has much lower research activity and doctoral degree production, which is what those guys care about it. Louisville is an R-1 like UCF and Temple (as new members of the Big East). Memphis is R-2 like ECU and unlike any of the public schools otherwise in the Big East at that time.

As some of you know, my parents attended Memphis; my brother, Cincinnati; and my sister-law, Louisville.

Academically, Memphis is to Louisville what Louisville is, somewhat, to Cincinnati.

U.S News 2020 rankings for national universities:

UC: 139
UL: 192
UM: 272

One of the great tragedies of conference realignment is the separation of Louisville, Cincy and Memphis. That trio ranks among the strongest "men's basketball threesomes in one league" in college hoops history. Admittedly, I'm biased. But those games back in the day were nasty. Raucous crowds, bad blood, lots on the line ... simply beautiful.

Back in the 70's and 80's, the same could be said of the three Research Triangle ACC schools: UNC, Duke, and NC State.

(07-14-2020 04:32 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  

(07-14-2020 03:50 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(07-14-2020 02:01 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  

(07-14-2020 11:45 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  But the pattern was clear, high academic schools Pitt, Syracuse and Rutgers were being replaced with low standards Memphis (another Louisville), ECU and UCF. These were not what the C7 considered peers as institutions, which is one of the reasons why they split.

I love to insult Louisville, but comparing it academically to Memphis is not accurate. Memphis has much lower research activity and doctoral degree production, which is what those guys care about it. Louisville is an R-1 like UCF and Temple (as new members of the Big East). Memphis is R-2 like ECU and unlike any of the public schools otherwise in the Big East at that time.

As some of you know, my parents attended Memphis; my brother, Cincinnati; and my sister-law, Louisville.

Academically, Memphis is to Louisville what Louisville is, somewhat, to Cincinnati.

U.S News 2020 rankings for national universities:

UC: 139
UL: 192
UM: 272

One of the great tragedies of conference realignment is the separation of Louisville, Cincy and Memphis. That trio ranks among the strongest "men's basketball threesomes in one league" in college hoops history. Admittedly, I'm biased. But those games back in the day were nasty. Raucous crowds, bad blood, lots on the line ... simply beautiful.

Back in the 70's and 80's, the same could be said of the three Research Triangle ACC schools: UNC, Duke, and NC State.

Everyone acknowledges that. Most people do not give the former three schools the resort they deserve (now they are ACC Louisville gets it).