(07-10-2020 11:58 AM)BDV27 Wrote:  

(07-10-2020 04:31 AM)pono Wrote:  

(07-09-2020 07:37 AM)BDV27 Wrote:  

(07-08-2020 02:35 PM)MotoRocket Wrote:  

(07-08-2020 02:18 PM)toledobigmike Wrote:  Debate or not, there are plenty of good well informed people who vehemently disagree with your myopic view.

I believe the inference from the comment was when it comes to murders/killings of young black American males vs. those at the hands of police - and nothing more than that.

Correct. For the so called informed.

In 2019 (FBI Data):

9 unarmed were Blacks killed by Police. All ruled justifiable

19 unarmed Whites killed by Police. All ruled justified.

7,500 Blacks Murdered not involving the Police. 90% of these murders were committed by other blacks.

As I inferred, Black on Black crime is by far the biggest problem that continues to plague the inner-city black communities. No denial there needs to be police reform and ongoing training. What happened to George Floyd was universally vilified. It was horrific and I am confident justice will be served. But data and facts matter, if we really want to fix the underlying problem. What happened to our fellow Rocket is heartbreaking and is tragically happening every weekend across our country. So many innocent lives lost and families destroyed.

over 1000 Americans have been killed by law enforcement every year since statistics have been kept. this is well documented. however, because the federal govt and most states do not have requirements on law enforcement reporting or record keeping of such homicides the numbers are sometimes misreported.

there are many challenges that Black communities and people face and many ways Black people are resilient and excel or simply get by. most folks believe police violence is a problem, other scenarios of violence are a problem, housing inequality is a problem, wealth disparities are a problem, the criminal justice system is a problem, health inequities are a problem...

The term "Black on Black Violence/Crime" is not one I use. One, since intra-ethnic violence is the norm across all groups (the majority of murders in the US are white people killed by white people). Two, because the media and entertainment orgy about the plagues of Black on Black violence in the 80s and 90s led to a massive incarceration of Black people, mostly for non-violent offenses (think 1 in 20 young Black men in the system to 1 in 3 a decade later). Thirdly, because while there are pockets of high homicide rates in some Black communities, generally, Black people commit crime (or don't) on levels similar to other ethnic groups. They are just policed more heavily and far more likely to be imprisoned and serve harsher sentences for their crimes.

Finally, there is a whole psychological and trauma conversation to better understand this-too long for a sports message board, honestly. But, briefly, communities that are highly policed, highly incarcerated, where fear of police, civilian violence, economic violence all impact the mental health and self worth of people and create a kind of self hate that can manifest in violence against people who look like you-people struggling with the same things. Black people who are culturally grounded or educated or political motivated or economically comfortable don't commit violence at high rates. People who are damaged and struggling are most often the dangerous ones. Generally, you have to feel like your life isn't worth sh$t to take someone else's.

I don't think it coincidence that a young Black man who was well liked, who made it to become a D1 athlete, who had a big smile and a personality that brought joy to those around him was killed by a former classmate and athlete who didn't make it in college, who wasn't memorable, who likely saw in Jahneil things he wished people saw in him. It's a really tragic killing and I feel for his friends and loved ones. So many people's lives were apparently richer because of Jahneil Douglas.

I'm not here to say I've got all the answers but I grew up on Bancroft and Upton and I know things get better by supporting those from the community who are working to make things better. and, frankly, lots of the political talk here on this subject is poorly informed, and doesn't seem to come from a place of love for the people suffering the most or the people most dedicated to making positive change.

Not really sure how talking about this very serious matter is considered political? I think the media has made it so. It absolutely sickens me and breaks my heart that so many young innocent blacks are being killed every weekend across this country, yet there is no outrage. No media coverage, No BLM protests, No Al Sharpton speeches, No Hollywood or pro athletes commenting on it. Bottom line, no money to be made on these tragic stories. And the sheep follow their lead and stick there head in the sand about these real human tragedies. It flat out pisses me off when I see a great young man like Jahneil doing everything he can to make a better life for himself and his family, shot down in cold blood over NOTHING! It infuriates me when I see a father walking down the street in NYC holding his 4-year-old daughter's hand, shot and killed in broad daylight right in front of her! That is horrifying to me! What was his name? I don't even know because in the report I saw of the incident they didn't even say. Nobody seems to care. Doesnt fit he narrrative the media want you to believe. Please don't insult me on the place where I come from. I have a great love for ALL humanity. If my frustration over this didn't come from a place of love, why would I even care? I would never expect to know what is in your heart, please don't expect to know what is in mine. I don't dispute many of your points on potential causes that have lead to this senseless violence. There are other factors that I don't want to get into. But at the same time, you seem to deny that there is even an issue with black on black crime, or whatever you want to call it, by saying that all murders tend to be largely intraracial. That is true, but misses the point. FACTS: 93%of black people are killed by other blacks. 85% of whites people are killed by other whites. But that is not the issue and your understanding of numbers is a bit lacking. Of course the majority of murders in this country is whites murdering whites. Whites make up 61% of the US population. Blacks make up 13% of the US population. With simple logic, one would have to expect that more whites are murdered by whites annually. But sadly, blacks between the ages of 10-34 die from homicide at 13 times the rate of white americans. This is where the epidemic lies and needs to be fixed, so we dont continue to see tradgedies like what happened to Jahneil continue. If we as country can't even admit this is a problem, how are we going to fix it? It's kind of like being alchoholic, you first have to admit you have problem before you can begin recovery. You also commented on a true stat that there are 1,000 people killed annually by police but again miss to point out a very important fact that the vast majority of these killing resulted because these were armed or very dangerous people. As I pointed out earlier, in 2019, only 28 or so of these approximately 1000 were unarmed people killed by police and all these were proven justified. The Police make 10 million arrests and have hundreds of millions of interactions with the public each year. Every day there are an average 27 deadly weapon attacks on Police officers. No question, as in any professsion, there is going to bad police officers and we have to do a better job of ongoing-training, especially in de-escalation tactics and rooting out and not protecting bad individuals like that evil monster in Minneapolis. But, by in large, most of our police officers are good people and are human too and want to go back home safely and take off there uniform and kiss their families good night. Sadly, over 600 Police officers have been injured over the last couple of months, thousands of businesses looted and burnt down for what I believe to be an issue not rooted in factual data and enflamed by the media to cause more division and chaos in this country. Just hoping as a country we could stop ignoring these ongoing tradgedies and also start looking into solutions for this largely more prevelent problem that is taking the most lives of innocent young people like Jahneil. May God Bless him and his family and all innocent lives lost to sensless voilence.

read your points BDV (and if you are who I think you are, I cheered for you as a kid), thanks for sharing and clarifying, certainly agree with your conclusion. also, when I make a point, unless I note a specific poster by name, I'm not calling anyone out. I may allude to posts that reflect social views, but I'm not saying what is or is not in your (or any poster's) heart specifically. I'm alluding to phrasing or expressed ideas that generally reflect people's intentions. Or, as I friend of mine says, "we call them generalizations, because they are generally true" but not blanket judgements.

I'll end my posts on this thread by asking you to consider how police abuse and murder relates to historical trauma. The police evolved from the overseer, and the slave catcher (as well as the union buster and the old English poorhouse). The reality of people who represent power (police, slave catchers, ICE, etc...) torturing, abducting, imprisoning, killing, beating, whipping... is part of some American's history, identity, and present. The feeling that the system works to keep them in their place and make them 2nd class citizens. The idea that you are never free when you feel at risk of unfair abuse or attack from authority. We can argue numbers, but I can say anecdotally that police and authority abuse and dehumanization was routine for Black peers growing up with me (including 2 of my HS classmates killed by police, another's rape covered up by police...). The psychological impact of these cases and the way they are always "justified" by courts is profound. When someone honors this truth it is much easier to hear their nuanced views on other related issues that also involve race.

(07-12-2020 05:58 PM)pono Wrote:  

(07-10-2020 11:58 AM)BDV27 Wrote:  

(07-10-2020 04:31 AM)pono Wrote:  

(07-09-2020 07:37 AM)BDV27 Wrote:  

(07-08-2020 02:35 PM)MotoRocket Wrote:  I believe the inference from the comment was when it comes to murders/killings of young black American males vs. those at the hands of police - and nothing more than that.

Correct. For the so called informed.

In 2019 (FBI Data):

9 unarmed were Blacks killed by Police. All ruled justifiable

19 unarmed Whites killed by Police. All ruled justified.

7,500 Blacks Murdered not involving the Police. 90% of these murders were committed by other blacks.

As I inferred, Black on Black crime is by far the biggest problem that continues to plague the inner-city black communities. No denial there needs to be police reform and ongoing training. What happened to George Floyd was universally vilified. It was horrific and I am confident justice will be served. But data and facts matter, if we really want to fix the underlying problem. What happened to our fellow Rocket is heartbreaking and is tragically happening every weekend across our country. So many innocent lives lost and families destroyed.

over 1000 Americans have been killed by law enforcement every year since statistics have been kept. this is well documented. however, because the federal govt and most states do not have requirements on law enforcement reporting or record keeping of such homicides the numbers are sometimes misreported.

there are many challenges that Black communities and people face and many ways Black people are resilient and excel or simply get by. most folks believe police violence is a problem, other scenarios of violence are a problem, housing inequality is a problem, wealth disparities are a problem, the criminal justice system is a problem, health inequities are a problem...

The term "Black on Black Violence/Crime" is not one I use. One, since intra-ethnic violence is the norm across all groups (the majority of murders in the US are white people killed by white people). Two, because the media and entertainment orgy about the plagues of Black on Black violence in the 80s and 90s led to a massive incarceration of Black people, mostly for non-violent offenses (think 1 in 20 young Black men in the system to 1 in 3 a decade later). Thirdly, because while there are pockets of high homicide rates in some Black communities, generally, Black people commit crime (or don't) on levels similar to other ethnic groups. They are just policed more heavily and far more likely to be imprisoned and serve harsher sentences for their crimes.

Finally, there is a whole psychological and trauma conversation to better understand this-too long for a sports message board, honestly. But, briefly, communities that are highly policed, highly incarcerated, where fear of police, civilian violence, economic violence all impact the mental health and self worth of people and create a kind of self hate that can manifest in violence against people who look like you-people struggling with the same things. Black people who are culturally grounded or educated or political motivated or economically comfortable don't commit violence at high rates. People who are damaged and struggling are most often the dangerous ones. Generally, you have to feel like your life isn't worth sh$t to take someone else's.

I don't think it coincidence that a young Black man who was well liked, who made it to become a D1 athlete, who had a big smile and a personality that brought joy to those around him was killed by a former classmate and athlete who didn't make it in college, who wasn't memorable, who likely saw in Jahneil things he wished people saw in him. It's a really tragic killing and I feel for his friends and loved ones. So many people's lives were apparently richer because of Jahneil Douglas.

I'm not here to say I've got all the answers but I grew up on Bancroft and Upton and I know things get better by supporting those from the community who are working to make things better. and, frankly, lots of the political talk here on this subject is poorly informed, and doesn't seem to come from a place of love for the people suffering the most or the people most dedicated to making positive change.

Not really sure how talking about this very serious matter is considered political? I think the media has made it so. It absolutely sickens me and breaks my heart that so many young innocent blacks are being killed every weekend across this country, yet there is no outrage. No media coverage, No BLM protests, No Al Sharpton speeches, No Hollywood or pro athletes commenting on it. Bottom line, no money to be made on these tragic stories. And the sheep follow their lead and stick there head in the sand about these real human tragedies. It flat out pisses me off when I see a great young man like Jahneil doing everything he can to make a better life for himself and his family, shot down in cold blood over NOTHING! It infuriates me when I see a father walking down the street in NYC holding his 4-year-old daughter's hand, shot and killed in broad daylight right in front of her! That is horrifying to me! What was his name? I don't even know because in the report I saw of the incident they didn't even say. Nobody seems to care. Doesnt fit he narrrative the media want you to believe. Please don't insult me on the place where I come from. I have a great love for ALL humanity. If my frustration over this didn't come from a place of love, why would I even care? I would never expect to know what is in your heart, please don't expect to know what is in mine. I don't dispute many of your points on potential causes that have lead to this senseless violence. There are other factors that I don't want to get into. But at the same time, you seem to deny that there is even an issue with black on black crime, or whatever you want to call it, by saying that all murders tend to be largely intraracial. That is true, but misses the point. FACTS: 93%of black people are killed by other blacks. 85% of whites people are killed by other whites. But that is not the issue and your understanding of numbers is a bit lacking. Of course the majority of murders in this country is whites murdering whites. Whites make up 61% of the US population. Blacks make up 13% of the US population. With simple logic, one would have to expect that more whites are murdered by whites annually. But sadly, blacks between the ages of 10-34 die from homicide at 13 times the rate of white americans. This is where the epidemic lies and needs to be fixed, so we dont continue to see tradgedies like what happened to Jahneil continue. If we as country can't even admit this is a problem, how are we going to fix it? It's kind of like being alchoholic, you first have to admit you have problem before you can begin recovery. You also commented on a true stat that there are 1,000 people killed annually by police but again miss to point out a very important fact that the vast majority of these killing resulted because these were armed or very dangerous people. As I pointed out earlier, in 2019, only 28 or so of these approximately 1000 were unarmed people killed by police and all these were proven justified. The Police make 10 million arrests and have hundreds of millions of interactions with the public each year. Every day there are an average 27 deadly weapon attacks on Police officers. No question, as in any professsion, there is going to bad police officers and we have to do a better job of ongoing-training, especially in de-escalation tactics and rooting out and not protecting bad individuals like that evil monster in Minneapolis. But, by in large, most of our police officers are good people and are human too and want to go back home safely and take off there uniform and kiss their families good night. Sadly, over 600 Police officers have been injured over the last couple of months, thousands of businesses looted and burnt down for what I believe to be an issue not rooted in factual data and enflamed by the media to cause more division and chaos in this country. Just hoping as a country we could stop ignoring these ongoing tradgedies and also start looking into solutions for this largely more prevelent problem that is taking the most lives of innocent young people like Jahneil. May God Bless him and his family and all innocent lives lost to sensless voilence.

read your points BDV (and if you are who I think you are, I cheered for you as a kid), thanks for sharing and clarifying, certainly agree with your conclusion. also, when I make a point, unless I note a specific poster by name, I'm not calling anyone out. I may allude to posts that reflect social views, but I'm not saying what is or is not in your (or any poster's) heart specifically. I'm alluding to phrasing or expressed ideas that generally reflect people's intentions. Or, as I friend of mine says, "we call them generalizations, because they are generally true" but not blanket judgements.

I'll end my posts on this thread by asking you to consider how police abuse and murder relates to historical trauma. The police evolved from the overseer, and the slave catcher (as well as the union buster and the old English poorhouse). The reality of people who represent power (police, slave catchers, ICE, etc...) torturing, abducting, imprisoning, killing, beating, whipping... is part of some American's history, identity, and present. The feeling that the system works to keep them in their place and make them 2nd class citizens. The idea that you are never free when you feel at risk of unfair abuse or attack from authority. We can argue numbers, but I can say anecdotally that police and authority abuse and dehumanization was routine for Black peers growing up with me (including 2 of my HS classmates killed by police, another's rape covered up by police...). The psychological impact of these cases and the way they are always "justified" by courts is profound. When someone honors this truth it is much easier to hear their nuanced views on other related issues that also involve race.

What were the names of the HS classmates killed by police? My uncle was a cop in Toledo and his kids went to Start. Just curious if he remembers them and what happened. I know he was stabbed by a prostitute with a screwdriver when he was arresting her for solicitation. Don't think he ever chased down any slaves - or knew anyone that did. Never tortured anyone, abducted anyone, beat anyone, or whipped anyone either. He was pretty normal - except that came into question when he joined the bomb squad at the end of his career. About the same time he was getting a divorce after 30-something years of being married. That job is tough on families. I mean, everytime they arrested someone, they were totally compliant and admitted they committed the crime. They would just lie and their stomachs and put their hands behind their backs and ask to be handcuffed. Maybe that's why in his 40 year career he never had to fire his weapon at anyone.

I'll send him the names to see if he knew who they were. I would suspect that was during the middle or latter part of his career.

honestly, Moto, I'm not sure how to respond. i mean, I respect your contributions to UT sports over the years. you are certainly in the Rocket fan hall of fame and have shared a lot of insight with fellow posters. in terms of this political conversation, your reply makes it seem like you never paid attention to what i previously wrote. i would hope your uncle never chased down slaves. he would have been 158 years old.

my final point on this long, intense, and fairly respectful thread began< "'ll end my posts on this thread by asking you to consider how police abuse and murder relates to historical trauma. The police evolved from the overseer, and the slave catcher (as well as the union buster and the old English poorhouse). The reality of people who represent power (police, slave catchers, ICE, etc...) torturing, abducting, imprisoning, killing, beating, whipping... is part of some American's history, identity, and present..."
for people who have direct, historically recent experience of persecution, genocide, slavery, loss of homeland, colonization, state racism, there is a clarity of the above. it's only a piece of the conversation, but we have experience being victimized and are thus distrustful of power and law enforcement. some people in America have always gotten some safety and leeway, they generally see things one way. most people who know America as a place that took things from them, see it differently. some of us have been on both sides or have a complicated fit in this country and complicated views on how we feel about it. you can think how you want to think, but if your point is to satirize or mock the 1 thing I asked for
"to consider how police abuse and murder relates to historical trauma."
why should I share the stories of my friend who died and my other classmate or anyone close to me who was killed or badly mistreated by the police? what are you going to do with it? it took me 30 years to tell some of these stories to people close to me. i don't know man. what's your uncle the cop gonna tell me? the same thing the cops said after they died? I know they still gonna be dead.

(07-15-2020 12:10 AM)pono Wrote:  honestly, Moto, I'm not sure how to respond. i mean, I respect your contributions to UT sports over the years. you are certainly in the Rocket fan hall of fame and have shared a lot of insight with fellow posters. in terms of this political conversation, your reply makes it seem like you never paid attention to what i previously wrote. i would hope your uncle never chased down slaves. he would have been 158 years old.

my final point on this long, intense, and fairly respectful thread began< "'ll end my posts on this thread by asking you to consider how police abuse and murder relates to historical trauma. The police evolved from the overseer, and the slave catcher (as well as the union buster and the old English poorhouse). The reality of people who represent power (police, slave catchers, ICE, etc...) torturing, abducting, imprisoning, killing, beating, whipping... is part of some American's history, identity, and present..."
for people who have direct, historically recent experience of persecution, genocide, slavery, loss of homeland, colonization, state racism, there is a clarity of the above. it's only a piece of the conversation, but we have experience being victimized and are thus distrustful of power and law enforcement. some people in America have always gotten some safety and leeway, they generally see things one way. most people who know America as a place that took things from them, see it differently. some of us have been on both sides or have a complicated fit in this country and complicated views on how we feel about it. you can think how you want to think, but if your point is to satirize or mock the 1 thing I asked for
"to consider how police abuse and murder relates to historical trauma."
why should I share the stories of my friend who died and my other classmate or anyone close to me who was killed or badly mistreated by the police? what are you going to do with it? it took me 30 years to tell some of these stories to people close to me. i don't know man. what's your uncle the cop gonna tell me? the same thing the cops said after they died? I know they still gonna be dead.

Actually police in the 1600's started as nightwatches in Boston, NY, Philly(1700). Their focus was nighttime prostitution and gambling. Different than in the South with slave patrols starting in the Carolina Colonies in 1704. The first official police dept in the US was founded in Boston 1838. Its purpose was to protect assets of Boston's lucrative shipping industry and the delivery of shipments. Eventually the Port's businesses figured they could get the city to pay for the police because it was part of the " common good".

Another opportunity to donate, as UT has started a scholarship fund in his name.

https://www.givecampus.com/schools/Unive...cholarship

(07-15-2020 12:10 AM)pono Wrote:  honestly, Moto, I'm not sure how to respond. i mean, I respect your contributions to UT sports over the years. you are certainly in the Rocket fan hall of fame and have shared a lot of insight with fellow posters. in terms of this political conversation, your reply makes it seem like you never paid attention to what i previously wrote. i would hope your uncle never chased down slaves. he would have been 158 years old.

my final point on this long, intense, and fairly respectful thread began< "'ll end my posts on this thread by asking you to consider how police abuse and murder relates to historical trauma. The police evolved from the overseer, and the slave catcher (as well as the union buster and the old English poorhouse). The reality of people who represent power (police, slave catchers, ICE, etc...) torturing, abducting, imprisoning, killing, beating, whipping... is part of some American's history, identity, and present..."
for people who have direct, historically recent experience of persecution, genocide, slavery, loss of homeland, colonization, state racism, there is a clarity of the above. it's only a piece of the conversation, but we have experience being victimized and are thus distrustful of power and law enforcement. some people in America have always gotten some safety and leeway, they generally see things one way. most people who know America as a place that took things from them, see it differently. some of us have been on both sides or have a complicated fit in this country and complicated views on how we feel about it. you can think how you want to think, but if your point is to satirize or mock the 1 thing I asked for
"to consider how police abuse and murder relates to historical trauma."
why should I share the stories of my friend who died and my other classmate or anyone close to me who was killed or badly mistreated by the police? what are you going to do with it? it took me 30 years to tell some of these stories to people close to me. i don't know man. what's your uncle the cop gonna tell me? the same thing the cops said after they died? I know they still gonna be dead.

Did you really think I didn't know my uncle never chased slaves? Was curious if you would respond to that or just realize it was just a list of things he never did that you assigned to police in general - and how any of the history you provided would have any influence on police of this generation.

As for the 2 students that you went to high school with that were killed by police in Toledo, I'm pretty sure they were not just walking down the street and the police decided to have some target practice that day. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong on that assumption as well. Everything has a perspective to it - and the way you worded it was that it was the cops fault they were killed. I just wanted to see if my uncle remembered either of them and the situation in which his fellow officers felt compelled to use deadly force. Since he never fired his weapon, and knowing his compassion for people in general, I'm pretty sure he would have given an honest assessment of the situation - assuming he was even familiar with it. But if it is too painful for you to bring up their names, then I'm not going fishing around to see who it might have been and then quiz him about what he remembers of young adults being killed by the police in Toledo over 30 years ago. Since he is over 80 years old, he probably would not remember anyway unless it was something that troubled him for a long time.

By the way, police shootings are not unfamiliar to my extended family. My first cousin's son was shot in the back by Ottawa Hills police - in a case many from Toledo are probably familiar with. The video of the shooting is attached below. I talked to my cousin last year at my sister's funeral, and she decided the best thing to do was to forgive and move on with their lives. He never received a penny from the city of Ottawa Hills for the shooting that left him a paraplegic. Never made national news. No protests were held.


This is completely off topic from the shooting of Jahneil Douglas and this is probably not the place to bring this up. I've seen both sides of the issues between police and citizens and the perspectives offered by my cousin and my uncle are not that far off from one another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY18yYgUR3s