(06-30-2020 01:58 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  Deadweight SEC & ACC schools would go to AAC

Correct. And deadweight AAC schools go to the Big East

(06-30-2020 01:58 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  Deadweight SEC & ACC schools would go to AAC

Why would the AAC want to add someone else's dead weight? That'd be like hanging a set of retreads on a newish car and filling the tank with stale gas.

(06-30-2020 01:41 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  These kinds of threads are always posted by fans of schools that are outside the P5 and think "my school belongs in the (insert initials of P5 conference) more than (insert name of P5 school the fan thinks is 'dead weight') does! Let's move them out and move my school in!

Problem is, the actual P5 conferences almost never agree. Go figure.

I bet they may think it from time to time, but they can't do anything about it. I bet some of the Biggest Boys in the P5, think this team in our conference is basically stealing money from us.

(06-30-2020 03:46 PM)Minutemen429 Wrote:  I bet they may think it from time to time, but they can't do anything about it. I bet some of the Biggest Boys in the P5, think this team in our conference is basically stealing money from us.

Jeeze, Louise, how in the Sam Hill do the Buckeyes wrack up 10 and 11 and 12 win seasons in a Big Ten full to the brim with hard games?

What do you need to sell the season tickets year in and year out ... including all of those special donor level seats in first class?

You need a handful of hard games to maintain drama, "must see" games where the big donor is everybody's best friend because he has those elite seats to the big game. A mid section of challenging games where you are regularly favored but if you look past them you are in danger. And you need some cupcakes ... to be sure, too many might make you fat, but you need to have some desert in there to pad out the schedule ... and having some of the cupcakes be "conference rivals" helps square the circle that you need enough exciting games to make people want to see and enough easy games so you are steadily in the national conversation.

And if they aren't "deadweights" for your value proposition when you are on the strong part of your cycle, consider That School Up North and it's value proposition in filling up the Big House when it's on the downside of a cycle. That School Up North is not likely to be looking at any of the W's in their conference schedule and say "give me my money back!!!!".

I don't look at OSU and Wazzu as dead weight. It's more that they would be better institutional fits and have more in common with the MWC lineup - resources, fan bases, attendance, place in college football, etc....especially if you were to remove the P5 media money. Both are fine schools, but they are undoubtedly the little brother in-state school and fit well with Colorado State, Utah State, Fresno State, Boise State, etc.

This move makes so much sense. IMO, the PAC could quickly and smoothly adjust to losing both schools by slimming the conference schedule to 8 games. That move alone would help the PAC's CFP prospects. Oregon and Washington simply become travel partners for Olympic sports.

And, the MWC would improve nicely with the addition and expanded footprint. Oregon State and Washington State would compete often for the conference championship.

This is probably the first college sports move I would make if I had Thanos' Infinity Gauntlet.

YNot: you're probably right that "bad institutional fit" is the better way to put it.

(06-30-2020 02:13 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(06-30-2020 01:41 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  These kinds of threads are always posted by fans of schools that are outside the P5 and think "my school belongs in the (insert initials of P5 conference) more than (insert name of P5 school the fan thinks is 'dead weight') does! Let's move them out and move my school in!

You're a USF/Georgetown fan, right?

Georgetown in hoops, USF in everything else. And?

(06-30-2020 05:44 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-30-2020 02:13 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(06-30-2020 01:41 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  These kinds of threads are always posted by fans of schools that are outside the P5 and think "my school belongs in the (insert initials of P5 conference) more than (insert name of P5 school the fan thinks is 'dead weight') does! Let's move them out and move my school in!

You're a USF/Georgetown fan, right?

Georgetown in hoops, USF in everything else. And?

You don't understand where these fans who think this way are coming from? You wouldn't like to see USF in a P5 conference? To a certain degree even though Villanova's won two national championships since 2016 I still feel like they and the Big East are thought of as second class citizens in sports. I would say most people on this board would say the Pathetic 12 is a better men's basketball conference than the Big East even though they're not (especially after UConn returns).

(06-30-2020 06:03 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(06-30-2020 05:44 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-30-2020 02:13 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(06-30-2020 01:41 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  These kinds of threads are always posted by fans of schools that are outside the P5 and think "my school belongs in the (insert initials of P5 conference) more than (insert name of P5 school the fan thinks is 'dead weight') does! Let's move them out and move my school in!

You're a USF/Georgetown fan, right?

Georgetown in hoops, USF in everything else. And?

You don't understand where these fans who think this way are coming from? You wouldn't like to see USF in a P5 conference? To a certain degree even though Villanova's won two national championships since 2016 I still feel like they and the Big East are thought of as second class citizens in sports. I would say most people on this board would say the Pathetic 12 is a better men's basketball conference than the Big East even though they're not (especially after UConn returns).

About the Big East, totally disagree, I think Big East hoops is held in high respect across the country including among the P5 conferences. P5 conferences schedule us as peers and the Selection Committee treats us like a Power league.

As for USF, of course I want us in a P5 conference. I remember when we were in an AQ conference for 8 years. But that doesn't make the logic of these complaints any more compelling, which is why i don't make them. It's empty whining chasing fool's gold.

(06-30-2020 06:03 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(06-30-2020 05:44 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-30-2020 02:13 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(06-30-2020 01:41 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  These kinds of threads are always posted by fans of schools that are outside the P5 and think "my school belongs in the (insert initials of P5 conference) more than (insert name of P5 school the fan thinks is 'dead weight') does! Let's move them out and move my school in!

You're a USF/Georgetown fan, right?

Georgetown in hoops, USF in everything else. And?

You don't understand where these fans who think this way are coming from? You wouldn't like to see USF in a P5 conference? To a certain degree even though Villanova's won two national championships since 2016 I still feel like they and the Big East are thought of as second class citizens in sports. I would say most people on this board would say the Pathetic 12 is a better men's basketball conference than the Big East even though they're not (especially after UConn returns).

schmolik,

I have posted in the past that (and we all know this) there is a fundamental difference between the Big East, which is clearly a "power basketball conference" IMO, and the five all-sports P5 leagues.

As such, some people perceive the Big East as a "different type of men's major hoops league" than the leagues in the P5. The Big East conference in a broad sense, as they see it, is not a conventional "power conference" for many reasons, including a lack of major football, a lack of massive statewide fan bases, a lack of huge endowments, etc.

As to your comment about how some perceive the Big East in general as second class citizens in sports ... yes there are folks who have that mindset.

And, on this theme, there is a small percentage of fans who feel that a league can be "power" in men's hoops only if it is a member of the comprehensive P5. I've noted many times on this board that these type fans (and I disagree with them strongly) define "power" in hoops just like they do "power" in football: i.e., strictly by the highest level of resources and the "company with which you keep." These fans do not view the Big East as a "power men's basketball league" via that very specific definition. They will fairly acknowledge Big East men's basketball is as good as the hoops in the P5 but it is still not "power."

However, such fans are in the minority and I don't put any credence in their views.

(06-30-2020 12:47 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  How would you move the P5 dead weight to a reasonable G5 conference? I'd move WSU and OSU to the MWC
ISU and Northwestern to the MAC
can't decide any more, mostly because they don't have G5 homes readily available

Maybe the Big Ten doesn't consider Northwestern to be dead weight.
Iowa State has the third or 4th best football attendance in the Big 12, very competitive basketball and colorful uniforms....their dead weight?

(06-30-2020 07:59 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(06-30-2020 12:47 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  How would you move the P5 dead weight to a reasonable G5 conference? I'd move WSU and OSU to the MWC
ISU and Northwestern to the MAC
can't decide any more, mostly because they don't have G5 homes readily available

Maybe the Big Ten doesn't consider Northwestern to be dead weight.
Iowa State has the third or 4th best football attendance in the Big 12, very competitive basketball and colorful uniforms....their dead weight?

Yes, the value of a university to a conference = the colorfulness of their uniforms.

So the true dead weight of the Big Ten = Iowa! Black uniforms.

(06-30-2020 04:24 PM)YNot Wrote:  I don't look at OSU and Wazzu as dead weight. It's more that they would be better institutional fits and have more in common with the MWC lineup - resources, fan bases, attendance, place in college football, etc....especially if you were to remove the P5 media money. Both are fine schools, but they are undoubtedly the little brother in-state school and fit well with Colorado State, Utah State, Fresno State, Boise State, etc.

This move makes so much sense. IMO, the PAC could quickly and smoothly adjust to losing both schools by slimming the conference schedule to 8 games. That move alone would help the PAC's CFP prospects. Oregon and Washington simply become travel partners for Olympic sports.

And, the MWC would improve nicely with the addition and expanded footprint. Oregon State and Washington State would compete often for the conference championship.

This is probably the first college sports move I would make if I had Thanos' Infinity Gauntlet.

If we're going to go institutional fits, how about Northwestern in a conference of all state universities or Vanderbilt in a conference of all state universities?

(06-30-2020 08:19 PM)schmolik Wrote:  If we're going to go institutional fits, how about Northwestern in a conference of all state universities or Vanderbilt in a conference of all state universities?

Yeah, I guess at one time decades ago, that was real handy, when you could hide a lot more things inside a private university than inside a public one ...
... and now it's just become tradition.

_______________________

(06-30-2020 07:59 PM)XLance Wrote:  Maybe the Big Ten doesn't consider Northwestern to be dead weight.

Certainly not. Why, in the 2011-2020 decade they are 4-3 in bowl games, when in previous decades they've either not gone bowling or have gone a minority of the years and lost.

Mind, for many decades the only bowl they were allowed to go to was the Rose Bowl and the conference champion went, so part of the stretch between their 1949 Rose Bowl win and their 1996 Rose Bowl loss was a period when a great many Big Ten teams had very few bowl game appearances.

Still, 0-3 in the 1991-2000 decade and 0-4 in the 2001-2010 decade, there was a lot more basis for dissing them ten years ago than in the decade we are presently in.

(06-30-2020 07:59 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(06-30-2020 12:47 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  How would you move the P5 dead weight to a reasonable G5 conference? I'd move WSU and OSU to the MWC
ISU and Northwestern to the MAC
can't decide any more, mostly because they don't have G5 homes readily available

Maybe the Big Ten doesn't consider Northwestern to be dead weight.
Iowa State has the third or 4th best football attendance in the Big 12, very competitive basketball and colorful uniforms....their dead weight?

This debate about who is dead weight and who is not is interesting. Iowa State has great attendance in both football and basketball. But is that a standard for dead weight? Iowa State has not won a conference championship in football since 1912. That seems like a long time. Oregon State was co-conference champions in the Pac-12 in 2000. They crushed Notre Dame in the Fiesta Bowl and ended up the No. 4 ranked team in the nation. Yet they are considered "dead weight." Iowa State basketball is good, but they lost to Oregon State this past season. In the past 12 years, Iowa State has had 7 players drafted into the NFL. Oregon State over the past 12 years has had 27 players drafted into the NFL. Oregon State, as we know, has one of the top college baseball programs in the nation.

Indiana and Minnesota have not won a conference championship in football since 1967, when they were co-champions of the Big Ten. Northwestern won three Big Ten conference championships in football (1995,1996,2000). Indiana and Minnesota have better basketball programs than Northwestern. But they have not won a Big Ten Championship recently and Northwestern has. So who is the dead weight in the Big 10?

Wake Forest and Boston College would probably not get invited into the ACC again if there was a do-over.

But in the real world, there ain't gonna be a do-over.

(06-30-2020 09:41 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(06-30-2020 07:59 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(06-30-2020 12:47 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  How would you move the P5 dead weight to a reasonable G5 conference? I'd move WSU and OSU to the MWC
ISU and Northwestern to the MAC
can't decide any more, mostly because they don't have G5 homes readily available

Maybe the Big Ten doesn't consider Northwestern to be dead weight.
Iowa State has the third or 4th best football attendance in the Big 12, very competitive basketball and colorful uniforms....their dead weight?

This debate about who is dead weight and who is not is interesting. Iowa State has great attendance in both football and basketball. But is that a standard for dead weight? Iowa State has not won a conference championship in football since 1912. That seems like a long time. Oregon State was co-conference champions in the Pac-12 in 2000. They crushed Notre Dame in the Fiesta Bowl and ended up the No. 4 ranked team in the nation. Yet they are considered "dead weight." Iowa State basketball is good, but they lost to Oregon State this past season. In the past 12 years, Iowa State has had 7 players drafted into the NFL. Oregon State over the past 12 years has had 27 players drafted into the NFL. Oregon State, as we know, has one of the top college baseball programs in the nation.

Indiana and Minnesota have not won a conference championship in football since 1967, when they were co-champions of the Big Ten. Northwestern won three Big Ten conference championships in football (1995,1996,2000). Indiana and Minnesota have better basketball programs than Northwestern. But they have not won a Big Ten Championship recently and Northwestern has. So who is the dead weight in the Big 10?

The correct answer is none of those schools are dead weight. Each of those schools has a listed contribution that makes their league better.

I'm sure that the SEC, the Big Ten, the Big 12, the ACC, and the PAC 12 would love it if their more hoops-focused teams would only be in their conferences for basketball and rest of the Olympic sports, but have their football teams in another conference entirely different. Like say having Cincy as a football only member of the Big Ten, and IU Hoosier football in the American conference. The Big Ten would still have the Hoosiers for basketball and all other sports, while the Bearcats would still be in the American for basketball and all other sports.

If I had to rank the schools that currently add the least value to their respective Power 5 conference:

WSU
BC
Oregon St
WVU
Rutgers
WFU
TTU
Colorado

The generalized commonalities: they don’t consistently excel in football or basketball, they are geographic or cultural outliers, they are disproportionately smaller schools, they are more commonly in the PAC, ACC and B12.

These schools are not deadweight...but they should be thankful for their inclusion in a P5 conference.

(06-30-2020 10:03 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  Wake Forest and Boston College would probably not get invited into the ACC again if there was a do-over.

But in the real world, there ain't gonna be a do-over.

Based on the premise of this thread (not on real life), I'd say Wake Forest would end up in either the AAC (w/ ECU) or the Sun Belt (w/ App State), while Duke would end up in the Big East (w/ UConn). Boston College might be relegated as well - probably to the AAC (to replace UConn). I'm thinking Syracuse might be safe(?).