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MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
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IWokeUpLikeThis Online
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Post: #61
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
Bowie St’s endowment is $8M. Moving up requires a $1M payment.
06-28-2020 06:59 PM
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Post: #62
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
(06-28-2020 03:44 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(06-28-2020 01:34 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  There’s one more desperate than New Jersey Tech: the MEAC would improve Chicago St’s situation (lower travel expenses, everyone being PBI’s, athletic budgets, attainable level of competition), but we just dropped baseball which the MEAC would need.

It may be that the MEAC cannot be stabilized ... and it may be that the MEAC cannot be stabilized without Virginia State adding, since at the very least it puts it a step away from the ledge at 7 FB schools ...

... but if the MEAC was down to six and needed Chicago State as a basketball school, it wouldn't much matter whether that was six FB schools as core members, or six baseball/volleyball schools as core members, it doesn't seem like the core membership would be disappointed at not having to fly baseball teams to Chicago.

Thing is, the way the rule is written, it doesn't actually specify the the sports sponsored by the six schools that let you be a multi-sport conference all have to be the same sports:

Men's sports requirements:
Quote: The conference shall sponsor a minimum of six men's sports, one of which shall be men's basketball.
The conference sponsors Basketball, FB, baseball, and all three tracks. There is no core membership in these sponsored sports.

Quote: In addition to men's basketball, the conference shall sponsor football or two other men's team sports.
This is not violated by sponsoring baseball with five members, all that does is eliminate your autobid.

Quote: A minimum of seven members shall sponsor men's basketball.
You don't get a golden ticket if you are made up of members that don't sponsor the golden ticket sport.

Quote: A minimum of six members shall sponsor five other sports, including football or two additional men's team sports; and ... [women's sport requirements follow next]

This is where if Coppin State and UMES added any other men's team sport, they would be part of the minimum six. It could be Lacrosse (given that they are in Maryland), it could be men's volleyball.

Note that it doesn't say anything about these being the same sports sponsored by the conference. And note that it doesn't say "five other sports including football, or else five other sports including two addition team sports", so that the six have to be counting the same men's team sports.

So if Coppin State and UMES added Lacrosse or Men's Volleyball, then the three Maryland members of the MEAC without any obvious ticket out of Dodge would count for the minimum six multi-sport members.

Three more Football schools, and a seventh Basketball full member, and that's a conference.

And why would those three other Football schools stay for? The MEAC would not be churlish with it's FB conference membership, and HBCU schools that found a home for their Olympic Sports and need a home for their FB would be welcome as affiliates.

Indeed, having a way to survive as the MEAC if the ASUN raids two of the three Southern schools would on the one hand make it more attractive for Virginia State to move up to a quite convenient bus league, and on the other hand probably quash any empire building raids motivated by the notion of buying out the MEAC conference charter and using it for the 18 basketball schools with two autobids and a football conference plan, and avoid the need for the Plan B.

Plan C would then be if it almost works, and there is the six-plus FCS conference and the six core members Virginia/Maryland basketball bus league conference and all the participants are happy about how the MEAC was rescued but that seventh Basketball member goes missing ... that's when they break the glass and ask Chicago State if they would like to be the seventh basketball member. And plus host a handful of track meets in Chicago every years, for a rotating selection of MEAC schools to have another venue to meet their Chicago alumni.

But that soccer team you added to maintain your own Division 1 status when you cut baseball ... you go ahead and play that somewhere up in the Great Lakes.

There's a lot in the NCAA regs that isn't said in one spot that is said in another. I don't think your workaround works. On being a qualifying conference is one of those things where you have to read totally different sections of the regs.
06-28-2020 07:19 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #63
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
(06-28-2020 06:59 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Bowie St’s endowment is $8M. Moving up requires a $1M payment.

Crap! How on earth can a school have so little tucked aside for a rainy day?! That’s downright irresponsible. Do they just expect the state to come in and bail them out if things go sour?
06-28-2020 08:12 PM
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Post: #64
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
(06-28-2020 08:12 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(06-28-2020 06:59 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Bowie St’s endowment is $8M. Moving up requires a $1M payment.

Crap! How on earth can a school have so little tucked aside for a rainy day?! That’s downright irresponsible. Do they just expect the state to come in and bail them out if things go sour?

Endowments are donations. If no one's donating, the school is not entirely at fault.
06-28-2020 09:07 PM
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BruceMcF Online
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Post: #65
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
(06-28-2020 07:19 PM)bullet Wrote:  There's a lot in the NCAA regs that isn't said in one spot that is said in another. I don't think your workaround works. On being a qualifying conference is one of those things where you have to read totally different sections of the regs.

Quite ... when the ASUN Commissioner was floating these notions of how easy it is to get an autobid conference up and running, it ran up against the autobid rules.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I should note that there are two possible readings of the "6 members x 5 other sports" rule. In one reading, these are members A, B, C, D, E, F, and they each sponsor 5 men's sports other than basketball, including either football, or two other men's team sports, where the six members can get together their five counting sports any way that works. This is the one that is most problematic for the "6+ FCS including affiliates" approach, since the non-FB schools need two team sports other than Basketball in order to count toward the six.

In the other reading, there are sports A, B, C, D and E, and each of them has six conference members, where (unlike the quite explicit specification for FBS conferences), any given sport can get together it's six members in whatever way works. This is not at all problematic for the "6+ FCS including affiliates" approach ... it fits that approach like a glove. Basketball, seven members, FCS FB, six+ members, XCountry, Indoor Track, Outdoor Track, six members each, one country club sport or baseball with six members, done and dusted.

Somebody at the NCAA knows which of the two readings is meant ... I would never suggest that that person is kept out of the loop when MEAC is putting together an FCS via affiliates plan to see off any potential effort by the ASUN Commissioner to push MEAC over the edge and thereby push their conference charter onto the fire sale auction block.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The admin section is the smallest and most deceptive:
Quote: 31.02.3 Core Conference. A core conference is a multisport conference that has been elected to membership and, as a result of legislation, is identified in the applicable sections of Constitution 4 related to representation in the NCAA governance structure.

Of course, the plain text is a multi-sport conference THAT has been identified, so if you cease being a multi-sport conference, you stop being a Core conference.

And there are all of the individual requirements. If Coppin State and UMES start Volleyball, they have to play a minimum of 19 matches a season ... if they start Lacrosse, they have to play a minimum of 10 games a season. Every track sport requires a minimum of four meets a season. Etc. There have to be two men's and two women's team sports, which is why Chicago State restarted their men's soccer team (minimum 11 games) when they dropped baseball (minimum 27 games). Minimum scholarship requirements. Etc.

And then on top of the Division membership requirement are the autobid requirements, which is in the Championships chapter 18:

Quote: 18.5.2 National Collegiate Championship. [#] To be eligible for automatic qualification into any National Collegiate Championship, a conference shall: (Adopted: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/06)
(a) Have at least six active members that sponsor the applicable sport in any division;
(b) Meet all applicable requirements for conference automatic qualification into any National Collegiate Championship as set forth in Bylaw 31.3.4.

18.5.3 Men's Basketball Eligibility Requirements. For automatic qualification in the sport of men's basketball in Division I, a conference shall meet the following additional requirements: (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/91)
(a) It shall determine a conference champion in at least six men's sports [at least two of which must be team sports as set forth in Bylaw 31.3.4.1-(a)]; and in each of these six sports, at least six of the conference's member institutions shall sponsor the sport on the varsity intercollegiate level; and
(b) It shall conduct double round-robin, in-season conference competition, or a minimum of 14 conference games, before declaring its champion in basketball.

18.5.3(a) is where maintaining 6+ FCS members and/or enticing Virginia State up and maintaining 6 members in baseball play their role in maintaining the golden ticket.

And then there's continuity ... for a multi-sport conference, having sponsored the sport and meeting the multi-sport definition and the sport sponsorship requirements for eight years to establish continuity, and then continuing to keep them, barring a two year grace period to get back up to numbers, to maintain continuity:

Quote: 20.02.5.4 Continuity. A multisport conference shall establish continuity. To establish continuity, a multisport conference must meet the requirements of Bylaw 20.02.5.1. In addition, the conference must meet the requirements of Bylaws 20.02.5.2 and 20.02.5.3 for a period of eight consecutive years. (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

20.02.5.5 Grace Period. A conference shall continue to be considered a multisport conference for two years following the date of withdrawal of the institution(s) that causes the conference's noncompliance with the minimum multisport conference requirements. (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

Those 20.02.5.1 and meeting 20.02.5.2 and 20.02.5.3 for eight years are the definition of the multi-sport conference with the section where the MEAC is skirting with the minimums already cited.

Note by contrast the FBS specification, where the requirements on core membership are substantially tighter than the general Division 1 specification:

Quote: 20.02.6 ... A conference classified as a Football Bowl Subdivision conference
shall be comprised of at least eight full Football Bowl Subdivision members that satisfy all bowl subdivision requirements. An institution shall be included as one of the eight full Football Bowl Subdivision members only if the institution participates in the conference schedule in at least six men's and eight women's conference-sponsored sports, including men's basketball and football and three women's team sports including women's basketball. A conference-sponsored sport shall be a sport in which regular season and/or championship opportunities are provided, consistent with the minimum standards identified by the applicable NCAA sport committee for automatic qualification.

Any conference the satisfies the FBS requirement and is entered into the NCAA Division 1 books as a Core Conference, and maintains that for eight years, will automatically be an autobid Tourney conference, because it encompasses and is more demanding than simple Division 1 multi-sport conference status.
(This post was last modified: 06-28-2020 10:34 PM by BruceMcF.)
06-28-2020 10:01 PM
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Post: #66
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
(06-28-2020 08:12 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(06-28-2020 06:59 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Bowie St’s endowment is $8M. Moving up requires a $1M payment.

Crap! How on earth can a school have so little tucked aside for a rainy day?! That’s downright irresponsible. Do they just expect the state to come in and bail them out if things go sour?

There’s been an ongoing court case between Maryland HBCUs and the state government regarding historical underfunding of the institutions. At last check, the state legislature had passed a bill authorizing the HBCUs to get all the money they had sought but that measure was vetoed by the governor last month.
06-29-2020 01:09 AM
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Post: #67
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
(06-26-2020 09:57 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Appalachian State University, $122.4 Million
Coastal Carolina University, $51.48 Million
Florida Atlantic University, $227 Million
Florida International University, $216.3 Million
Georgia Southern University, $64 Million
Georgia State University, $1.15 Billion
Marshall University, $129.4 Million
Middle Tennessee State University, $105.6 Million
Old Dominion University, $240.9 Million
University of Alabama at Birmingham, $495.3 Million
University of North Carolina at Charlotte, $230.35 Million
Western Kentucky University, $125.5 Million

C-USA and the Sun Belt have to add at least four schools between them survive as FBS conferences, and the resulting chaos opens up more appropriate homes for the legacy MEAC members.
I think you might have Georgia State confused with Georgia Tech. State's endowment in 2018 was $172 Million
06-29-2020 07:19 AM
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Exclamation RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
(06-29-2020 07:19 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  
(06-26-2020 09:57 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Appalachian State University, $122.4 Million
Coastal Carolina University, $51.48 Million
Florida Atlantic University, $227 Million
Florida International University, $216.3 Million
Georgia Southern University, $64 Million
Georgia State University, $1.15 Billion
Marshall University, $129.4 Million
Middle Tennessee State University, $105.6 Million
Old Dominion University, $240.9 Million
University of Alabama at Birmingham, $495.3 Million
University of North Carolina at Charlotte, $230.35 Million
Western Kentucky University, $125.5 Million

C-USA and the Sun Belt have to add at least four schools between them survive as FBS conferences, and the resulting chaos opens up more appropriate homes for the legacy MEAC members.
I think you might have Georgia State confused with Georgia Tech. State's endowment in 2018 was $172 Million

Note: UT Arlington is a SBC member and should add football. The candidates for the Sun Belt football invites could include:

1. UT Arlington adds football
2. West Florida - 2019 DII champs
3. Florida Gulf Coast - needs to add football
4. North Florida - needs to add football

Way outside chances of getting invited

1. Jacksonville State
2. Valdosta State - DII
3. Middle Georgia State - has a club football team
4. Southeastern Louisiana

With the MEAC going defunct, the pecking order in the Southeast will flow like this for the next five years:

ASun > Big South > Southern > OVC > Southland > SWAC > Sun Belt > CUSA > American > ACC/SEC

With the addition of FAMU and BCU, the SWAC edges out the Southland. If the revenues jump, look for SWAC considering a move to FBS. This will be done to attract OOC games with the so called P5 schools aka Pay day games.
06-29-2020 08:49 AM
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Post: #69
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
(06-29-2020 08:49 AM)FloridaJag Wrote:  With the MEAC going defunct, the pecking order in the Southeast will flow like this for the next five years:

ASun > Big South > Southern > OVC > Southland > SWAC > Sun Belt > CUSA > American > ACC/SEC

With the addition of FAMU and BCU, the SWAC edges out the Southland. If the revenues jump, look for SWAC considering a move to FBS. This will be done to attract OOC games with the so called P5 schools aka Pay day games.

I'm not even going to address that your top candidates for Sun Belt FB consist of a DII school and 3 schools without FB. I would think the pecking order is more like this (and I'm using "less than" signs):

(MEAC*) < A-Sun < SWAC/Big South/Southland/OVC < SoCon < CAA < Sun Belt < CUSA < A-10 < AAC <<< ACC < SEC

* Assuming they survive in some form

Some of these, like the Southland and A-10, are only marginally Southeastern at best.

The SWAC is absolutely not going to move to FBS. That's absurd. This isn't DavidSt/NoDak world, where money and logic don't matter.
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2020 09:55 AM by Nerdlinger.)
06-29-2020 09:43 AM
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Post: #70
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
(06-28-2020 06:59 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Bowie St’s endowment is $8M. Moving up requires a $1M payment.
(06-28-2020 08:12 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Crap! How on earth can a school have so little tucked aside for a rainy day?! That’s downright irresponsible. Do they just expect the state to come in and bail them out if things go sour?

(1) If they want to keep their golden ticket, the MEAC may have to get more flexible about their entry fee

(2) And endowments are not a slush fund, a rainy day fund, or the savings account of the University: the bulk of any endowment is dedicated to some specific purposes, many of them scholarships, endowed chairs or research funding, typically as specified in a bequest. Indeed, if someone just leaves a gift in their will, it might be better for a school like Bowie State to put it into a rainy day fund instead of locking it up in the endowment.

(3) But Bowie State doesn't give the MEAC what it needs, so what difference does it make what its endowment is? The MEAC needs a baseball and football playing school in the Virginia/Maryland area either in or eligible to move up to Division 1. Virginia State plays baseball, and enough sports to be able to qualify as a Division 1 school. Bowie State does neither.
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2020 12:49 PM by BruceMcF.)
06-29-2020 10:04 AM
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Post: #71
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
(06-29-2020 07:19 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  
(06-26-2020 09:57 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Appalachian State University, $122.4 Million
Coastal Carolina University, $51.48 Million
Florida Atlantic University, $227 Million
Florida International University, $216.3 Million
Georgia Southern University, $64 Million
Georgia State University, $1.15 Billion
Marshall University, $129.4 Million
Middle Tennessee State University, $105.6 Million
Old Dominion University, $240.9 Million
University of Alabama at Birmingham, $495.3 Million
University of North Carolina at Charlotte, $230.35 Million
Western Kentucky University, $125.5 Million

C-USA and the Sun Belt have to add at least four schools between them survive as FBS conferences, and the resulting chaos opens up more appropriate homes for the legacy MEAC members.
I think you might have Georgia State confused with Georgia Tech. State's endowment in 2018 was $172 Million

1.15 billion is Georgia State's budget number.
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2020 10:28 AM by Kit-Cat.)
06-29-2020 10:28 AM
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Post: #72
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
Separate UAB's Medical school budget which is the majority, to get a truer picture.
06-29-2020 11:21 AM
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Post: #73
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
Best case scenario for survival of the MEAC is if (1) Virginia State joins, (2) Delaware State is turned down by the NEC and other conferences (I'm assuming Del. State is going to take an invitation if one does come, given that they've already had discussions), (3) the ASUN elects not to be deemed responsible for the demise of one of only two D1 HBCU conferences and doesn't invite anyone, and (4) Howard stands by their word to commit to the MEAC. The conference survives as a 9-team league overall, 7 teams for football.

Worst case scenario would unfold roughly in this order: (1) Virginia State declines to move up to D1. (2) The MEAC is unable to take in anyone else new who has football and baseball, putting the league's survival on the clock to add new schools who just aren't there. (3) Delaware State decides to accept an invitation from the NEC, or whoever. (4) The ASUN decides that the MEAC has no chance to make it and invites SCSU, NCCU, and NSU, with football going to the Big South. (5) Howard decides it did the best it could to help its conference survive but decides at this point to leave for the NEC, Patriot, or CAA. (6) Morgan State, Coppin State, and UMES do whatever they can to obtain an invitation to another D1 league, with their ability to succeed unknown.

Either scenario is possible.

One radical idea, admittedly very unlikely, would be for any remaining 1-3 Maryland schools to invite 10-12 eastern Sun Belt, C-USA, and/or current FCS schools as a block to join them as a new FBS league. For example:

FIU
FAU
Ga. Southern
Ga. State
Coastal Carolina
Charlotte
App State
ODU
JMU
Marshall
UMES (non football)
Coppin State (non football)
Morgan State (FCS independent)

Obviously there would be a number of huge hurdles to overcome, and, again, very very unlikely, but it would at least be a creative move for those schools to at least ask if it so happens that they're all that's left of the MEAC.
06-29-2020 11:52 AM
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Post: #74
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
(06-29-2020 10:28 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(06-29-2020 07:19 AM)TrueBlueDrew Wrote:  
(06-26-2020 09:57 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Appalachian State University, $122.4 Million
Coastal Carolina University, $51.48 Million
Florida Atlantic University, $227 Million
Florida International University, $216.3 Million
Georgia Southern University, $64 Million
Georgia State University, $1.15 Billion
Marshall University, $129.4 Million
Middle Tennessee State University, $105.6 Million
Old Dominion University, $240.9 Million
University of Alabama at Birmingham, $495.3 Million
University of North Carolina at Charlotte, $230.35 Million
Western Kentucky University, $125.5 Million

C-USA and the Sun Belt have to add at least four schools between them survive as FBS conferences, and the resulting chaos opens up more appropriate homes for the legacy MEAC members.
I think you might have Georgia State confused with Georgia Tech. State's endowment in 2018 was $172 Million

1.15 billion is Georgia State's budget number.

Budgets and endowments aren't the same thing. The other schools have their endowments listed. Georgia State's is 172 Million.
06-29-2020 12:16 PM
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Post: #75
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
(06-29-2020 11:52 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  One radical idea, admittedly very unlikely, would be for any remaining 1-3 Maryland schools to invite 10-12 eastern Sun Belt, C-USA, and/or current FCS schools as a block to join them as a new FBS league.

The NCAA unit is used to defray costs of running the conference, and there's no Celebration Bowl participation with no FCS HBCU conference sponsorship, and there's no way for the three of them alone to cobble together a multi-sport conference no matter how the definition bylaw is read, so if it's down to the three Maryland schools, it's time to drop to D2.

But may as well get value from the charter while they are the legacy owners!

If they are stuck as the legacy owners of the charter, they may well get more from "selling" invitations to FBS schools to form a new FBS conference then from "selling" invitations to the ASUN/BigSouth schools in the (evidently bored with his regular job) ASUN Commissioner's empire building scheme.

Then they split the proceeds, perhaps invest some of them in overdue facilities maintenance, put the rest into the general fund, and drop down to Div2.

It'd have to be a minimum of eight, to petition to be an FBS conference, and it has to be an FBS conference to invite up JMU, so assuming they wouldn't target a conference of 9, any one with JMU would be a group of 9 or more current FBS schools.
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2020 01:10 PM by BruceMcF.)
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Post: #76
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
I brought up Bowie St because they have an enrollment of 5000 and they are within 3.5 hrs of everyone but N.C. Central and SC St (both still doable by bus but probably requires an overnight stay) (3 schools are under 1 hr).

Baseball is a hiccup but that’s the only sport they’d need to add and there’s the possibility of renting existing MiLB quality facilities 16 mins from campus.

Bowie St and Virginia St are the only 2 CIAA schools that I think could be a possibility.

The rest either have prohibitively small enrollments (Virginia Union) or would need to add 3+ sports to meet D1 requirements.

If those two both say no I think it’s next to impossible to keep the MEAC going.


Just a thought, could Coppin St allow crosstown and baseball-less Morgan St to use their baseball facilities in order to get a 6th team for the autobid?
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2020 01:45 PM by Fighting Muskie.)
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Post: #77
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
(06-29-2020 01:43 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Just a thought, could Coppin St allow crosstown and baseball-less Morgan St to use their baseball facilities in order to get a 6th team for the autobid?

If someone is going to be starting a baseball program to save the conference, it seems like it would be Howard.

But then that would probably meaning killing off the soccer team (as was attempted one time before), so I am just going to hope they can work out something with Virginia State.

In consideration of Virginia State saving the autobid, they cut the membership fee in half, and agree to take the membership fee from half of Virginia State's conference distribution, so Virginia State is not substantially out of pocket if they move up and then two years later the MEAC ends up folding.
06-29-2020 02:25 PM
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Post: #78
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
At this point, the MEAC should be waiving their entry fee and offering to help defray the D1 application fee.
06-29-2020 03:25 PM
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Post: #79
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
MEAC should think outside the box and invite non-HBCU schools to join from D2. MEAC can be the WAC as a stepping stone for east coast schools who want to go D1. They will have a landing spot to join umtil they get a better offer.
06-29-2020 03:45 PM
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Post: #80
RE: MEAC Commissioner: The goal is a conference with 12 football-playing members
(06-29-2020 03:45 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  MEAC should think outside the box and invite non-HBCU schools to join from D2. MEAC can be the WAC as a stepping stone for east coast schools who want to go D1. They will have a landing spot to join umtil they get a better offer.

Who David? Rattle off some D2 schools in Maryland, Virginia, or North Carolina that have 5,000 students, sponsor football, and sponsor 14 sports total.
06-29-2020 04:37 PM
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