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Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
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RutgersGuy Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
(06-22-2020 10:50 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Greg Abbott isn't closing football in Texas. That's the ticket to not getting reelected in 2022.

It's not gonna be his call. If the other states of the teams they are supposed to play decide not to play or the conference decides not to play Abbot can't do **** unless he personally reforms the SWC.
06-22-2020 05:47 PM
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Cyniclone Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
(06-22-2020 05:47 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(06-22-2020 10:50 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Greg Abbott isn't closing football in Texas. That's the ticket to not getting reelected in 2022.

It's not gonna be his call. If the other states of the teams they are supposed to play decide not to play or the conference decides not to play Abbot can't do **** unless he personally reforms the SWC.

Which takes a lot of pressure off of him and other Southern governors. They can claim that they're doing everything in their power to play football this season, but some schools out West or in the Northeast started cancelling, and that created this whole domino effect, and it's not fair to make our student-athletes work so hard to not even have a chance at a real national championship, so our schools reluctantly shut down their programs for the season.
06-22-2020 05:56 PM
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Fort Bend Owl Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
Here's another thing about wearing masks - you can make them into a pretty cool fashion statement. Here's 82-year-old Richard Petty wearing his today at Talladega.

[Image: EbI2zl9WoAQSThr?format=jpg&name=small]
06-22-2020 05:57 PM
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mturn017 Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
(06-22-2020 04:19 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  It seems to me the only people saying anything definitive is the homemade mask Gestapo who are saying that these homemade masks magically defy decades of proven science pertaining to PPE.

There been a lot of research into PPE regarding use by the public at large during a pandemic? I have no doubt it’s well established what’s needed if you’re removing asbestos or administering to infectious patients or performing surgery in a sterilized environment. In all those cases it’d seem as though the goal is to have near 100% efficacy and an understanding of the proper use of equipment is essential. We’re not talking about any of that. We’re debating whether it’s worth asking people to wear a mask or bandana when they’re at the Piggly Wiggly. Your analogy of the mosquito would say no that provides zero efficacy. The study I posted, while pretty technical and I admit I don’t understand fully seems to say that even wrapping a wool scarf around your face as our dear leader suggested would help some and you can do a good deal better than that with the right combination of fabrics. Everybody understands that the virus is smaller than the fabric weave. Contagion is more complicated than just that though.
06-22-2020 06:00 PM
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bullet Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
Not sure of the source of this, but I heard that women 30-59 are most likely to get it and be asymptomatic. The recommendation was that they all be quarantined in a spa or winery for two weeks.04-cheers
(This post was last modified: 06-22-2020 06:46 PM by bullet.)
06-22-2020 06:46 PM
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HawaiiMongoose Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
All this debate about the effectiveness of masks... it's nuts how the issue has become so controversial.

The argument for masks isn't that they protect the wearer. It's that they minimize disease spread from wearers who are unknowingly infected, which is a huge problem with this particular virus.

Just watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNHgQq0BGLI

The evidence is right there in front of your eyes. Wearing a mask significantly inhibits the spread of droplets that carry the virus. And this test involved a person speaking or shouting, not coughing or sneezing. Even a person without symptoms presents a greater hazard to individuals around him or her if unmasked than if masked.
06-22-2020 06:51 PM
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jedclampett Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
Lab experiments show how masks could protect against COVID-19

Wearing face masks could protect against COVID-19 by protecting the nose, which the virus can easily infect, according to lab experiments.

Scientists studying the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus -- which causes COVID-19 -- believe they've discovered why face masks might help limit transmission of the virus.

The virus tends to first infect the nasal cavity, replicating less well in the lower respiratory tract, University of North Carolina (UNC) researchers found. However, sometimes it's sucked into the lungs, where it can cause serious consequences, including fatal pneumonia.

https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020/06/...591716956/
06-22-2020 07:06 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
(06-22-2020 07:06 PM)jedclampett Wrote:  The virus tends to first infect the nasal cavity, replicating less well in the lower respiratory tract, University of North Carolina (UNC) researchers found. However, sometimes it's sucked into the lungs, where it can cause serious consequences, including fatal pneumonia.

https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020/06/...591716956/

And that's what makes this so much more insidious than SARS ... different coronaviruses have different proteins they interlock with in cell membrances (the "spikes" that got the virus its name), and the covid19 can infect selected tissues in the nasal passages, and then once they get infected, they are capable of spreading via aerosols deeper into specific lung tissues.

That might also have exacerbated the crisis in Hubei, since Wuhan and other large cities in Hubei tend to have very bad air pollution, so there would have been a lot of people with infections with impaired cilia.

With SARS, people did not tend to be infectious until after they were experiencing a high fever, so fever detectors everywhere allowed the SARS epidemic to be extinguished in most provinces in a couple of months.
(This post was last modified: 06-22-2020 07:31 PM by BruceMcF.)
06-22-2020 07:30 PM
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RutgersGuy Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
I want sports back as much as the next guy, but I also don't want more people to die so i'll deal with my slight inconvenience for the greater good.
06-23-2020 05:04 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
(06-23-2020 05:04 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  I want sports back as much as the next guy, but I also don't want more people to die so i'll deal with my slight inconvenience for the greater good.

I have not involved myself in the laymen mask debate because to me it is a minor inconvenience and wearing one makes common sense - a mask might help me and others and it doesn't hurt, so why not wear one? I've worn a mask every time I've gone in to an indoor public place for the past three months.

What I do object to is the lockdown approach. We have suffered tens of millions of unemployed, thousands of lost businesses, and about $4 trillion (and counting) to basically do what?

Put it this way: On a typical pre-covid day, about 8,000 people a day die in the USA. On the worst covid death day we've had so far, about 2,700 people died. So instead of 8,000 people dying that day, around 11,000 people did. Had nobody paid attention to it - meaning mass media coverage - probably "nobody" in a general sense would have noticed. Who was it who said "one person dying is a tragedy, a million is a statistic"? I think one of those evil mass killers like Stalin or Hitler. But at a societal level 8,000 dead a day is obviously a statistic as nobody ever gets riled up about it.

Put it one other way: If *last* February, in 2019, a team of Scientists, universally respected by everyone, had said "about 8,000 Americans die each day. But, we have come up with a method that can reduce that to 6,000 a day for next 180 days, or a savings of 360,000 lives during that time. The cost will be 20 million unemployed .... 150,000 lost businesses ... $4 trillion in spending ... and the loss of movies, restaurants, sporting events, travel shopping, and other such stuff for that six months, schools closed, everyone largely confined to quarters .... all to drop the death rate from 8,000 a day to 6,000 a day ... would that have gotten even 10% of the public support if put to a vote?

Countries like Japan and Sweden did the right thing. Sweden messed up a bit because they didn't protect their nursing homes, but they basically had the right approach. What should have been done was extreme lockdowns and hazmat-level protection for nursing homes, assisted care facilities, and similar facilities, isolation for anyone with diabetes, heart disease, or aesthma ... everyone else go about your business, including business.

Yesterday, our governor, John Bel Edwards of Louisiana, said something that has had me pulling my hair out. In announcing a delay in moving to another stage or reopening, he said (paraphrase) "young people crowding the bars and clubs should think about not just themselves, but their grandparents", as kids who go to these places will then bring the virus back home to vulnerable grandparents. I'm sitting their at my TV shouting "NO! Closing the bars is not the solution! The solution is for the kids to NOT visit their grandparents! Social isolation, but for vulnerable people at home, not inhibiting what the kids do out and about".

My wife and I are in our 50s, and normally we travel up to DC three times a year to visit her mother, who is 82. By mutual agreement, we have skipped our March and also will skip our July visits to avoid possibly bringing the virus in to her home. That's how to handle this, not for me and my wife not to go out to restaurants.
(This post was last modified: 06-23-2020 09:11 AM by quo vadis.)
06-23-2020 08:39 AM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
Taint gonna be no ball in 2020
06-23-2020 09:40 AM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Online
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Post: #72
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
(06-23-2020 09:40 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  Taint gonna be no ball in 2020

I wonder how many posters here talk like this in real life but hide it by typing normally on this site.
06-23-2020 09:59 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
(06-22-2020 05:57 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  Here's another thing about wearing masks - you can make them into a pretty cool fashion statement. Here's 82-year-old Richard Petty wearing his today at Talladega.

[Image: EbI2zl9WoAQSThr?format=jpg&name=small]

SMDH

You are aware that's not even a mask. It's a sun screen and you can see through it. How effective do you really think that things is?
06-23-2020 11:05 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
(06-23-2020 08:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Social isolation, but for vulnerable people at home

Did all the people who died from this categorize as “vulnerable?” Did they know they really were after all?

I don’t know whatever happened to the concept of the greater good. It’s not the same as letting humbugs and skeptics getting their way since, to them, it’s freedom. And that’s not to anyone here, but, that if comes to more closures or the continued suspension of activies, it’s done with more in mind. I don’t like it, but I’m fine with it if it means I don’t have to learn the hard way if someone close in the family, my immediate one including kids, tragically was more vulnerable than thought.

And at the college age, yeah, I doubt those folks ever think that far beyond themselves. It’s part of growing up, that maturation, but, this is an avoidable risk that can be taken away from them. Self-righteous as it sounds, emerging adults or no, students don’t get run point on this one.
06-23-2020 02:02 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
(06-23-2020 02:02 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 08:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Social isolation, but for vulnerable people at home

Did all the people who died from this categorize as “vulnerable?” Did they know they really were after all?

I don’t know whatever happened to the concept of the greater good.

But that begs the issue of what the "greater good" is. It can't be "minimize deaths at any other kind of cost", because otherwise we would ban automobiles, which kill about 35,000 people a year. But, even though nobody likes to say it in so many words, as a society we think those deaths are "worth it" to get the benefits cars provide. Truth is, societies trade-off lives for other things all the time.

As for "vulnerable", we have had a very good idea of who is vulnerable all along - the very elderly and people with a few underlying conditions, like heart disease, diabetes, and asthma. And no, not every single person who has died fits those categories, but the numbers are staggering. IIRC, of the first 25,000 people who died of CV in the USA, all of 24 weren't elderly or had a serious underlying health condition.

So protect the vulnerable, but don't wreck society and the economy with mass lockdowns and shutdowns of public life in the process, as we did and are still doing.
(This post was last modified: 06-23-2020 05:03 PM by quo vadis.)
06-23-2020 04:54 PM
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HoustonCougarNation Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
(06-22-2020 04:16 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  Anyone else getting the feeling with these Covid spikes being reported, that our college football season this year is in jeopardy?

I hate to say it but I have to agree with you, it looks like we might not play at all this year!!!04-chairshot
06-23-2020 06:42 PM
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RutgersGuy Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
(06-23-2020 08:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 05:04 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  I want sports back as much as the next guy, but I also don't want more people to die so i'll deal with my slight inconvenience for the greater good.

I have not involved myself in the laymen mask debate because to me it is a minor inconvenience and wearing one makes common sense - a mask might help me and others and it doesn't hurt, so why not wear one? I've worn a mask every time I've gone in to an indoor public place for the past three months.

What I do object to is the lockdown approach. We have suffered tens of millions of unemployed, thousands of lost businesses, and about $4 trillion (and counting) to basically do what?

Put it this way: On a typical pre-covid day, about 8,000 people a day die in the USA. On the worst covid death day we've had so far, about 2,700 people died. So instead of 8,000 people dying that day, around 11,000 people did. Had nobody paid attention to it - meaning mass media coverage - probably "nobody" in a general sense would have noticed. Who was it who said "one person dying is a tragedy, a million is a statistic"? I think one of those evil mass killers like Stalin or Hitler. But at a societal level 8,000 dead a day is obviously a statistic as nobody ever gets riled up about it.

Put it one other way: If *last* February, in 2019, a team of Scientists, universally respected by everyone, had said "about 8,000 Americans die each day. But, we have come up with a method that can reduce that to 6,000 a day for next 180 days, or a savings of 360,000 lives during that time. The cost will be 20 million unemployed .... 150,000 lost businesses ... $4 trillion in spending ... and the loss of movies, restaurants, sporting events, travel shopping, and other such stuff for that six months, schools closed, everyone largely confined to quarters .... all to drop the death rate from 8,000 a day to 6,000 a day ... would that have gotten even 10% of the public support if put to a vote?

Countries like Japan and Sweden did the right thing. Sweden messed up a bit because they didn't protect their nursing homes, but they basically had the right approach. What should have been done was extreme lockdowns and hazmat-level protection for nursing homes, assisted care facilities, and similar facilities, isolation for anyone with diabetes, heart disease, or aesthma ... everyone else go about your business, including business.

Yesterday, our governor, John Bel Edwards of Louisiana, said something that has had me pulling my hair out. In announcing a delay in moving to another stage or reopening, he said (paraphrase) "young people crowding the bars and clubs should think about not just themselves, but their grandparents", as kids who go to these places will then bring the virus back home to vulnerable grandparents. I'm sitting their at my TV shouting "NO! Closing the bars is not the solution! The solution is for the kids to NOT visit their grandparents! Social isolation, but for vulnerable people at home, not inhibiting what the kids do out and about".

My wife and I are in our 50s, and normally we travel up to DC three times a year to visit her mother, who is 82. By mutual agreement, we have skipped our March and also will skip our July visits to avoid possibly bringing the virus in to her home. That's how to handle this, not for me and my wife not to go out to restaurants.

Cool. Economies recover the dead don't. How many dead are acceptable to keep the economy open? We clearly are doing way worse than most of the 1st world and it's not because we had lockdowns, it's because we never took it seriously and people don't want any inconvenience.
06-24-2020 05:35 AM
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RutgersGuy Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
(06-23-2020 04:54 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 02:02 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 08:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Social isolation, but for vulnerable people at home

Did all the people who died from this categorize as “vulnerable?” Did they know they really were after all?

I don’t know whatever happened to the concept of the greater good.

But that begs the issue of what the "greater good" is. It can't be "minimize deaths at any other kind of cost", because otherwise we would ban automobiles, which kill about 35,000 people a year. But, even though nobody likes to say it in so many words, as a society we think those deaths are "worth it" to get the benefits cars provide. Truth is, societies trade-off lives for other things all the time.

As for "vulnerable", we have had a very good idea of who is vulnerable all along - the very elderly and people with a few underlying conditions, like heart disease, diabetes, and asthma. And no, not every single person who has died fits those categories, but the numbers are staggering. IIRC, of the first 25,000 people who died of CV in the USA, all of 24 weren't elderly or had a serious underlying health condition.

So protect the vulnerable, but don't wreck society and the economy with mass lockdowns and shutdowns of public life in the process, as we did and are still doing.

We take steps to minimize auto deaths. Seatbelts, speed limits, air bags etc. It's a form of transportation not a commutable disease. Thats not even comparing apples to oranges thats comparing apples to hammers.
06-24-2020 05:36 AM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
(06-24-2020 05:35 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 08:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 05:04 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  I want sports back as much as the next guy, but I also don't want more people to die so i'll deal with my slight inconvenience for the greater good.

I have not involved myself in the laymen mask debate because to me it is a minor inconvenience and wearing one makes common sense - a mask might help me and others and it doesn't hurt, so why not wear one? I've worn a mask every time I've gone in to an indoor public place for the past three months.

What I do object to is the lockdown approach. We have suffered tens of millions of unemployed, thousands of lost businesses, and about $4 trillion (and counting) to basically do what?

Put it this way: On a typical pre-covid day, about 8,000 people a day die in the USA. On the worst covid death day we've had so far, about 2,700 people died. So instead of 8,000 people dying that day, around 11,000 people did. Had nobody paid attention to it - meaning mass media coverage - probably "nobody" in a general sense would have noticed. Who was it who said "one person dying is a tragedy, a million is a statistic"? I think one of those evil mass killers like Stalin or Hitler. But at a societal level 8,000 dead a day is obviously a statistic as nobody ever gets riled up about it.

Put it one other way: If *last* February, in 2019, a team of Scientists, universally respected by everyone, had said "about 8,000 Americans die each day. But, we have come up with a method that can reduce that to 6,000 a day for next 180 days, or a savings of 360,000 lives during that time. The cost will be 20 million unemployed .... 150,000 lost businesses ... $4 trillion in spending ... and the loss of movies, restaurants, sporting events, travel shopping, and other such stuff for that six months, schools closed, everyone largely confined to quarters .... all to drop the death rate from 8,000 a day to 6,000 a day ... would that have gotten even 10% of the public support if put to a vote?

Countries like Japan and Sweden did the right thing. Sweden messed up a bit because they didn't protect their nursing homes, but they basically had the right approach. What should have been done was extreme lockdowns and hazmat-level protection for nursing homes, assisted care facilities, and similar facilities, isolation for anyone with diabetes, heart disease, or aesthma ... everyone else go about your business, including business.

Yesterday, our governor, John Bel Edwards of Louisiana, said something that has had me pulling my hair out. In announcing a delay in moving to another stage or reopening, he said (paraphrase) "young people crowding the bars and clubs should think about not just themselves, but their grandparents", as kids who go to these places will then bring the virus back home to vulnerable grandparents. I'm sitting their at my TV shouting "NO! Closing the bars is not the solution! The solution is for the kids to NOT visit their grandparents! Social isolation, but for vulnerable people at home, not inhibiting what the kids do out and about".

My wife and I are in our 50s, and normally we travel up to DC three times a year to visit her mother, who is 82. By mutual agreement, we have skipped our March and also will skip our July visits to avoid possibly bringing the virus in to her home. That's how to handle this, not for me and my wife not to go out to restaurants.

Cool. Economies recover the dead don't. How many dead are acceptable to keep the economy open? We clearly are doing way worse than most of the 1st world and it's not because we had lockdowns, it's because we never took it seriously and people don't want any inconvenience.

I have to comment on this one. The world makes this calculus routinely when it comes to economies. If we reduce speed limits across the entire country - we'd save lives. We don't and not only that they were increased from the 55 mph limits set in the 70s. All of that was for the sake of the economy. There are a wide variety of products we can purchase in the markets that could be engineered more safely to reduce injuries and deaths. But we don't, because that would make these products too expensive and thus hurt the economy.

The point is that people are too flippant about how the economy impacts everything. You can't simply flip it on and off like a light switch. Yes, we have a free market based economy that is resilient; however, it's not perfectly immune to economic cycles across the board. It's even more sensitive when those cycles are intentionally manufactured. We have small businesses that are not coming back even if everything opens up 100%.

One final comment. I've noticed that those who have their income streams secured are the first to crow about how we must sacrifice for the greater good. If I was a cynic, I'd bet that most of these same people would be singing from a different hymnal if their income streams were dependent upon the private sector - especially the industries deemed "non-essential"...
06-24-2020 07:40 AM
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RE: Covid Spikes... possibility of no college football?
(06-24-2020 05:35 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 08:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 05:04 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  I want sports back as much as the next guy, but I also don't want more people to die so i'll deal with my slight inconvenience for the greater good.

I have not involved myself in the laymen mask debate because to me it is a minor inconvenience and wearing one makes common sense - a mask might help me and others and it doesn't hurt, so why not wear one? I've worn a mask every time I've gone in to an indoor public place for the past three months.

What I do object to is the lockdown approach. We have suffered tens of millions of unemployed, thousands of lost businesses, and about $4 trillion (and counting) to basically do what?

Put it this way: On a typical pre-covid day, about 8,000 people a day die in the USA. On the worst covid death day we've had so far, about 2,700 people died. So instead of 8,000 people dying that day, around 11,000 people did. Had nobody paid attention to it - meaning mass media coverage - probably "nobody" in a general sense would have noticed. Who was it who said "one person dying is a tragedy, a million is a statistic"? I think one of those evil mass killers like Stalin or Hitler. But at a societal level 8,000 dead a day is obviously a statistic as nobody ever gets riled up about it.

Put it one other way: If *last* February, in 2019, a team of Scientists, universally respected by everyone, had said "about 8,000 Americans die each day. But, we have come up with a method that can reduce that to 6,000 a day for next 180 days, or a savings of 360,000 lives during that time. The cost will be 20 million unemployed .... 150,000 lost businesses ... $4 trillion in spending ... and the loss of movies, restaurants, sporting events, travel shopping, and other such stuff for that six months, schools closed, everyone largely confined to quarters .... all to drop the death rate from 8,000 a day to 6,000 a day ... would that have gotten even 10% of the public support if put to a vote?

Countries like Japan and Sweden did the right thing. Sweden messed up a bit because they didn't protect their nursing homes, but they basically had the right approach. What should have been done was extreme lockdowns and hazmat-level protection for nursing homes, assisted care facilities, and similar facilities, isolation for anyone with diabetes, heart disease, or aesthma ... everyone else go about your business, including business.

Yesterday, our governor, John Bel Edwards of Louisiana, said something that has had me pulling my hair out. In announcing a delay in moving to another stage or reopening, he said (paraphrase) "young people crowding the bars and clubs should think about not just themselves, but their grandparents", as kids who go to these places will then bring the virus back home to vulnerable grandparents. I'm sitting their at my TV shouting "NO! Closing the bars is not the solution! The solution is for the kids to NOT visit their grandparents! Social isolation, but for vulnerable people at home, not inhibiting what the kids do out and about".

My wife and I are in our 50s, and normally we travel up to DC three times a year to visit her mother, who is 82. By mutual agreement, we have skipped our March and also will skip our July visits to avoid possibly bringing the virus in to her home. That's how to handle this, not for me and my wife not to go out to restaurants.

Cool. Economies recover the dead don't. How many dead are acceptable to keep the economy open? We clearly are doing way worse than most of the 1st world and it's not because we had lockdowns, it's because we never took it seriously and people don't want any inconvenience.

WTH? Compared to other 1st world countries, the USA is vast, so really each state is more like a country. Places like New York and Louisiana got hit hard first, but now the virus has relatively subsided there. In other places, the "wave" is hitting later. And to say that we "never took it seriously" when lockdowns and shutdowns drastically altered social and economic life across the USA at enormous self-incurred costs is ridiculous. The whole country was upheaved because just about every state -whether red or blue- did initially follow the lockdown/shutown playbook that was the accepted wisdom by the WHO, CDC, etc. Even now, no state has fully "reopened".

Your dismissal of tens of millions of lost jobs and financial hardships, hundreds of thousands of closed businesses, massive social depression from family isolation and dislocations, and trillions of dollars spent as "people not wanting any inconvenience" seems quite arrogant. Maybe you happen to be fortunate to not have experienced any of that personally. If so, cool - good for you.

07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 06-24-2020 08:22 AM by quo vadis.)
06-24-2020 08:08 AM
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