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Ourland Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Cancel “Rice”
There's a big article about the William Marsh Rice statue on foxnews.com. This is getting out of hand.
06-22-2020 10:39 PM
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Almadenmike Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-22-2020 10:39 PM)Ourland Wrote:  There's a big article about the William Marsh Rice statue on foxnews.com. This is getting out of hand.

Here's a link to the article -- https://www.foxnews.com/us/rice-universi...on-demands -- which was written by Gregg Re "a lawyer and editor based in Los Angeles. Follow him on Twitter @gregg_re or email him at gregory.re@foxnews.com."
06-22-2020 11:19 PM
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Intellectual_Brutality Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-22-2020 11:19 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:  
(06-22-2020 10:39 PM)Ourland Wrote:  There's a big article about the William Marsh Rice statue on foxnews.com. This is getting out of hand.

Here's a link to the article -- https://www.foxnews.com/us/rice-universi...on-demands -- which was written by Gregg Re "a lawyer and editor based in Los Angeles. Follow him on Twitter @gregg_re or email him at gregory.re@foxnews.com."

Hmm, so I'm trying to figure out the sources for these alleged demands.
Can anyone confirm that this account (with only 5 posts?) is actually the official Rice BSA account? https://www.instagram.com/ricebsa/

Beyond the demands posted on that account, there are no BSA sources actually listed in the piece....
06-22-2020 11:59 PM
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illiniowl Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-22-2020 11:59 PM)Intellectual_Brutality Wrote:  
(06-22-2020 11:19 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:  
(06-22-2020 10:39 PM)Ourland Wrote:  There's a big article about the William Marsh Rice statue on foxnews.com. This is getting out of hand.

Here's a link to the article -- https://www.foxnews.com/us/rice-universi...on-demands -- which was written by Gregg Re "a lawyer and editor based in Los Angeles. Follow him on Twitter @gregg_re or email him at gregory.re@foxnews.com."

Hmm, so I'm trying to figure out the sources for these alleged demands.
Can anyone confirm that this account (with only 5 posts?) is actually the official Rice BSA account? https://www.instagram.com/ricebsa/

Beyond the demands posted on that account, there are no BSA sources actually listed in the piece....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gi27qlh...kkjkl/view
06-23-2020 12:07 AM
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Intellectual_Brutality Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-23-2020 12:07 AM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(06-22-2020 11:59 PM)Intellectual_Brutality Wrote:  
(06-22-2020 11:19 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:  
(06-22-2020 10:39 PM)Ourland Wrote:  There's a big article about the William Marsh Rice statue on foxnews.com. This is getting out of hand.

Here's a link to the article -- https://www.foxnews.com/us/rice-universi...on-demands -- which was written by Gregg Re "a lawyer and editor based in Los Angeles. Follow him on Twitter @gregg_re or email him at gregory.re@foxnews.com."

Hmm, so I'm trying to figure out the sources for these alleged demands.
Can anyone confirm that this account (with only 5 posts?) is actually the official Rice BSA account? https://www.instagram.com/ricebsa/

Beyond the demands posted on that account, there are no BSA sources actually listed in the piece....

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gi27qlh...kkjkl/view

There is no organization mentioned in that document, only 2-3 names of specific individuals who are putting forward what they think are good demands.

I guess given no clear evidence that this document represents the demands of any official student organization or at least some non-trivial number of students, I'll ignore it until more info comes out
06-23-2020 01:25 AM
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Owl1998 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-22-2020 05:07 PM)Intellectual_Brutality Wrote:  
(06-21-2020 06:56 AM)Owl1998 Wrote:  
(06-21-2020 12:03 AM)Intellectual_Brutality Wrote:  
(06-20-2020 11:41 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  
(06-20-2020 11:24 PM)Intellectual_Brutality Wrote:  "Any news source" != majority of progressive public opinion.
Please show me polling on progressives' support for removal of ... of what? All statues? Some statues (which ones)? If you can find polling that shows a majority of progressives supporting removing majority of historical-figure statues, I'll be surprised and gladly shut up. If the claim is that majority of progressives support removing the handful of most egregious statues, then that *may* be true, sure, (though I'd like to see polling still), but then we're outside the scope of the OP, which was Rice-specific

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-det...aseID=3663

Contrary to what you see on the news.. the majority of Americans (77%) approve of the policing in their community. The majority of Americans do not support defunding police. 81% oppose eliminating the police.

85% of Dems (what do progressives identify as?) think confederate statues should be removed (just hit 52% overall). 81% of Dems think army bases shouldn’t be named after confederate figures.

Progressives in San Fran tore down statues of Grant and Francis Scott Key.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com...onal%3famp

A more complete list including Washington and Columbus.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com...ests%3famp

Thanks for those links! I *am* a bit surprised, the support is stronger than I guessed. The Quinnipiac poll is particularly interesting. (The other links are hard to learn from, since they are about specific statues and don't tell us about who did it or how broad the support was)

So, it turns out there is very strong support among Dems (and presumably progressives) for removing the most egregious (Confederate?) statues. It may also surprise OP that this is actually the majority opinion of Americans. Seems fine, but opens the much harder question of which statues beyond Confederate leaders are the most egregious. On that, I'd guess Americans have much less consensus.

Well, let’s put it this way....it’s damn sure not Conservatives who are tearing down statues and graffitiing buildings. It’s damn sure not Conservatives who started the whole “cancel” culture. It’s damn sure not Conservatives who hijacked the legitimacy of the George Floyd protests and used it as a platform for mayhem.

Agree? Or no?

Of course disagree.

It's intellectually sloppy to lump everyone who's "not conservative" into one camp, "the left" or whatever. In reality, under that tent is a wide range of folks, Democrats, progressives, extremists, etc.

Many conservatives would probably find it foolish if everyone equated "conservative" with "neo Nazi," "libertarian," etc, wouldn't they? "Those are all super different!," they'd say, and rightly so. "The left" is similarly heterogeneous, probably more so. FYI, most left people don't endorse lots of stuff we all see on TV / Twitter. I have yet to see any non-anecdotal evidence that tearing down statues of Columbus or cancelling Yale is popular among anything close to a majority of, say, Dems.

That's why it's so comical when people here go on and on about how they're going to vote out the "crazy libs" who want there to be no police, as if the people holding those extreme policy positions are ... elected Democrats. In fact, to best of my knowledge, there's been approximately 0 elected Dems supporting tearing down statues of Grant or shutting down police departments *completely*.

Ok, so just to be clear....you DISAGREE that it’s left wing people who are rioting, vandalizing monuments, and calling for the destruction of the fabric of the United States?

That’s an interesting take. Lol....
06-23-2020 06:53 AM
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Hou_Lawyer Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-22-2020 10:39 PM)Ourland Wrote:  There's a big article about the William Marsh Rice statue on foxnews.com. This is getting out of hand.

Segregation! Unbelievable
06-23-2020 08:47 AM
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allerretour Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Cancel “Rice”
I'd be pretty much done with Rice if they change the name or take down the statue (not that they'd miss my paltry contributions). I think I'd become anti-Rice if they put a separate black house on campus.
06-23-2020 09:18 AM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #49
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-23-2020 09:18 AM)allerretour Wrote:  I'd be pretty much done with Rice if they change the name or take down the statue (not that they'd miss my paltry contributions). I think I'd become anti-Rice if they put a separate black house on campus.

What is the black house that is part of the discussion? I haven't seen a good explanation floating around (but admittedly, I could have missed it). Is it a dorm/residential college? Or is it more like the Women's Resource Center - a permanent, physical space on campus?
06-23-2020 09:35 AM
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Intellectual_Brutality Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-23-2020 09:35 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 09:18 AM)allerretour Wrote:  I'd be pretty much done with Rice if they change the name or take down the statue (not that they'd miss my paltry contributions). I think I'd become anti-Rice if they put a separate black house on campus.

What is the black house that is part of the discussion? I haven't seen a good explanation floating around (but admittedly, I could have missed it). Is it a dorm/residential college? Or is it more like the Women's Resource Center - a permanent, physical space on campus?

I don't think it's yet clear. FWIW, Stanford has a dorm on campus that's for minority students only. That's been there for years and people seem to like it. There are Hillel houses etc on just about every campus. So having some building isn't exactly a radical idea.
06-23-2020 09:37 AM
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Rice93 Online
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Post: #51
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-23-2020 09:18 AM)allerretour Wrote:  I'd be pretty much done with Rice if they change the name or take down the statue (not that they'd miss my paltry contributions). I think I'd become anti-Rice if they put a separate black house on campus.

"Black houses" are not a new concept however they are currently becoming more of a topic as there are more calls for them at multiple universities.

https://cmea.georgetown.edu/blackhouse/

https://www.csun.edu/social-behavioral-s...lack-house

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/ar...on/496289/
06-23-2020 09:39 AM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #52
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-23-2020 09:37 AM)Intellectual_Brutality Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 09:35 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 09:18 AM)allerretour Wrote:  I'd be pretty much done with Rice if they change the name or take down the statue (not that they'd miss my paltry contributions). I think I'd become anti-Rice if they put a separate black house on campus.

What is the black house that is part of the discussion? I haven't seen a good explanation floating around (but admittedly, I could have missed it). Is it a dorm/residential college? Or is it more like the Women's Resource Center - a permanent, physical space on campus?

I don't think it's yet clear. FWIW, Stanford has a dorm on campus that's for minority students only. That's been there for years and people seem to like it. There are Hillel houses etc on just about every campus. So having some building isn't exactly a radical idea.

Yeah - a dedicated, physical space shouldn't be viewed as problematic, or with hostility.

An entire residential college/dorm starts to wade into a territory that I feel uncomfortable with, as it goes beyond providing resources or a space for connecting with others, and starts to appear exclusionary/closed off. But as I just read on a Stanford blog, those sorts of dorms do raise an interesting question:

Quote:Why are the draw numbers for non-ethnic males and females into these theme houses always so high (note - high draws = less desirable dorms chosen by students)? Could it be that upon entering these dorms they become the minority in the house; finally understand the feelings and frustrations most minorities experience on a day-to-day basis? In another Stanford Review article entitled “Ethnic Theme Dorms Hinder School Diversity,” a Caucasian resident of Ujamaa expressed feeling “socially and culturally ostracized” and noted “being forced to associate [himself] with a culture was not [his] idea of a pleasurable experience.” He felt “clearly unaccepted by many of his fellow residents and was forced to find a social network in the other residences of Lagunita…[He] felt forcibly immersed in one dominant culture, with few outlets to other perspectives” (Theron). Does a Hispanic student at Branner, or an African-American student at Arroyo feel the same way?

Whether ethnic theme dorms in and of themselves perpetuate racial tensions is a debatable issue; however, if there are no attempts to become culturally aware and failures at interaction by non-minorities and minorities alike, there is no reason to expect a more unified campus in any near future.

http://web.stanford.edu/group/ccr/blog/2...eme_1.html
06-23-2020 09:44 AM
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Post: #53
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-23-2020 09:39 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 09:18 AM)allerretour Wrote:  I'd be pretty much done with Rice if they change the name or take down the statue (not that they'd miss my paltry contributions). I think I'd become anti-Rice if they put a separate black house on campus.

"Black houses" are not a new concept however they are currently becoming more of a topic as there are more calls for them at multiple universities.

https://cmea.georgetown.edu/blackhouse/

https://www.csun.edu/social-behavioral-s...lack-house

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/ar...on/496289/

Is this a divisive movement or a uniting movement?
06-23-2020 09:44 AM
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Post: #54
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-23-2020 09:35 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 09:18 AM)allerretour Wrote:  I'd be pretty much done with Rice if they change the name or take down the statue (not that they'd miss my paltry contributions). I think I'd become anti-Rice if they put a separate black house on campus.

What is the black house that is part of the discussion? I haven't seen a good explanation floating around (but admittedly, I could have missed it). Is it a dorm/residential college? Or is it more like the Women's Resource Center - a permanent, physical space on campus?

I read (on a facebook group for Rice conversations for what that is worth) that it was the latter, not the former.... from what was purported to be 'the list' of demands.
06-23-2020 09:45 AM
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Intellectual_Brutality Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-23-2020 06:53 AM)Owl1998 Wrote:  Ok, so just to be clear....you DISAGREE that it’s left wing people who are rioting, vandalizing monuments, and calling for the destruction of the fabric of the United States?

That’s an interesting take. Lol....

I agree in the technical sense: most of the monument vandals are left wing, but few of the left wing people vandalize monuments. Treating "left wing people" and "monument vandals" as more or less the same set is absurd.

The exact analogy is "it's conservative people who are alt right / neonazis killing people in order to stoke race tensions blah blah"
Do you DISAGREE with that?, because it's ... technically true. But making that statement is still absurd and misleading, isn't it?
(This post was last modified: 06-23-2020 09:48 AM by Intellectual_Brutality.)
06-23-2020 09:47 AM
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Post: #56
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-23-2020 09:35 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 09:18 AM)allerretour Wrote:  I'd be pretty much done with Rice if they change the name or take down the statue (not that they'd miss my paltry contributions). I think I'd become anti-Rice if they put a separate black house on campus.

What is the black house that is part of the discussion? I haven't seen a good explanation floating around (but admittedly, I could have missed it). Is it a dorm/residential college? Or is it more like the Women's Resource Center - a permanent, physical space on campus?

Both. They're demanding a separate off-campus dorm or residential college exclusively for African-Americans as well as a building/center for African-Americans to congregate and discuss issues. Yes, this is going back to segregation, which runs counter to their mission.

I support BLM and agree with many of their requests, however, on several facebook and twitter Rice-related pages they are attacking anyone who doesn't agree with them 100%, or even those who politely raise concerns over one or two of their "demands" or the tone of their letter to the administration. Instead, they're quick to label such supportive alums as "racist" and "sexist" (since the majority of the co-signers are women). They also fail to recognize the very significant progress that has been made over the past 10 years, and the number of recent initiatives put in place to address diversity and promote increased African-American awareness and resources. Certainly, there are areas (e.g., hiring, admissions) in which further improvement is needed, but I'm not sure their aggressive, antagonistic approach is the most effective way of affecting further change. Having said that, they are certainly getting heard, and this is long overdue.
06-23-2020 09:51 AM
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Rice93 Online
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Post: #57
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-23-2020 09:44 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 09:39 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 09:18 AM)allerretour Wrote:  I'd be pretty much done with Rice if they change the name or take down the statue (not that they'd miss my paltry contributions). I think I'd become anti-Rice if they put a separate black house on campus.

"Black houses" are not a new concept however they are currently becoming more of a topic as there are more calls for them at multiple universities.

https://cmea.georgetown.edu/blackhouse/

https://www.csun.edu/social-behavioral-s...lack-house

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/ar...on/496289/

Is this a divisive movement or a uniting movement?

I don't think providing a safe haven for students of color should be viewed as divisive.
06-23-2020 09:53 AM
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Owl1998 Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-23-2020 09:47 AM)Intellectual_Brutality Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 06:53 AM)Owl1998 Wrote:  Ok, so just to be clear....you DISAGREE that it’s left wing people who are rioting, vandalizing monuments, and calling for the destruction of the fabric of the United States?

That’s an interesting take. Lol....

I agree in the technical sense: most of the monument vandals are left wing, but few of the left wing people vandalize monuments. Treating "left wing people" and "monument vandals" as more or less the same set is absurd.

The exact analogy is "it's conservative people who are alt right / neonazis killing people in order to stoke race tensions blah blah"
Do you DISAGREE with that?, because it's ... technically true. But making that statement is still absurd and misleading, isn't it?

2 things can be true at once....not all left wing people are vandalizing this country...and never did I say that. However, the people who are vandalizing the country are left wing.

No?
06-23-2020 09:55 AM
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Post: #59
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-23-2020 09:51 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 09:35 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 09:18 AM)allerretour Wrote:  I'd be pretty much done with Rice if they change the name or take down the statue (not that they'd miss my paltry contributions). I think I'd become anti-Rice if they put a separate black house on campus.

What is the black house that is part of the discussion? I haven't seen a good explanation floating around (but admittedly, I could have missed it). Is it a dorm/residential college? Or is it more like the Women's Resource Center - a permanent, physical space on campus?

Both. They're demanding a separate off-campus dorm or residential college exclusively for African-Americans as well as a building/center for African-Americans to congregate and discuss issues. Yes, this is going back to segregation, which runs counter to their mission.

I support BLM and agree with many of their requests, however, on several facebook and twitter Rice-related pages they are attacking anyone who doesn't agree with them 100%, or even those who politely raise concerns over one or two of their "demands" or the tone of their letter to the administration. Instead, they're quick to label such supportive alums as "racist" and "sexist" (since the majority of the co-signers are women). They also fail to recognize the very significant progress that has been made over the past 10 years, and the number of recent initiatives put in place to address diversity and promote increased African-American awareness and resources. Certainly, there are areas (e.g., hiring, admissions) in which further improvement is needed, but I'm not sure their aggressive, antagonistic approach is the most effective way of affecting further change. Having said that, they are certainly getting heard, and this is long overdue.

so they are demanding "separate but equal"? I guess next will be separate dorms for women. Back to the future.
06-23-2020 09:56 AM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #60
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-23-2020 09:51 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 09:35 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(06-23-2020 09:18 AM)allerretour Wrote:  I'd be pretty much done with Rice if they change the name or take down the statue (not that they'd miss my paltry contributions). I think I'd become anti-Rice if they put a separate black house on campus.

What is the black house that is part of the discussion? I haven't seen a good explanation floating around (but admittedly, I could have missed it). Is it a dorm/residential college? Or is it more like the Women's Resource Center - a permanent, physical space on campus?

Both. They're demanding a separate off-campus dorm or residential college exclusively for African-Americans as well as a building/center for African-Americans to congregate and discuss issues. Yes, this is going back to segregation, which runs counter to their mission.

I support BLM and agree with many of their requests, however, on several facebook and twitter Rice-related pages they are attacking anyone who doesn't agree with them 100%, or even those who politely raise concerns over one or two of their "demands" or the tone of their letter to the administration. Instead, they're quick to label such supportive alums as "racist" and "sexist" (since the majority of the co-signers are women). They also fail to recognize the very significant progress that has been made over the past 10 years, and the number of recent initiatives put in place to address diversity and promote increased African-American awareness and resources. Certainly, there are areas (e.g., hiring, admissions) in which further improvement is needed, but I'm not sure their aggressive, antagonistic approach is the most effective way of affecting further change. Having said that, they are certainly getting heard, and this is long overdue.

Bingo.

I personally am not knowledgeable enough on the efforts that current and former students have made in lobbying the university to address any or all of the issues that have been brought up recently, so I don't feel like criticizing the current leaders for their tone makes much sense, unless on knows that this is the very first time all of these items have been raised to the admin.

The crucial issue, to me, will be how negotiations go and whether there will be willingness to negotiate and compromise on the list of demands - whatever the final list may be.

It does seem like there are a lot of lists flying around, and it isn't exactly clear if there is a cohesive set of demands that have been provided to the admin from a specific group.
06-23-2020 09:57 AM
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