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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #21
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-21-2020 10:42 AM)Viejobuho Wrote:  If I am not mistaken, I was the first Puerto Rican (born and raised in Puerto Rico) to attend Rice, after, I guess, Rice lifted its race limitations. Long ago, I forgave William Marsh, focusing instead on what a blessing it was for me to a graduate from the great university that Rice became!

And you helped make it great!
06-21-2020 01:31 PM
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Ourland Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-21-2020 12:24 AM)75src Wrote:  I am getting tired of the iconoclasts. It is getting too far when George Washington and Grant are pulled down. The 54th Mass. statute was spray painted. The Vandals do not know what they do.

You're right
06-21-2020 04:33 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-21-2020 04:33 PM)Ourland Wrote:  
(06-21-2020 12:24 AM)75src Wrote:  I am getting tired of the iconoclasts. It is getting too far when George Washington and Grant are pulled down. The 54th Mass. statute was spray painted. The Vandals do not know what they do.

You're right

I think they do know. But they are secure in their self-righteousness. It's like when they burn down a Wendy's. All in a good cause.
(This post was last modified: 06-21-2020 06:12 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
06-21-2020 05:52 PM
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Hou_Lawyer Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Cancel “Rice”
The Silent Majority will be engaged at the ballot box. Twitter isn’t the real world.

For God’s sake, they’re now tearing down Teddy Roosevelt and George Washington. But dare to speak out against this behavior and you’re labeled. Piss on them and do your talking where it counts.
(This post was last modified: 06-21-2020 09:23 PM by Hou_Lawyer.)
06-21-2020 09:22 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Cancel “Rice”
Well, that's three of four from Mount Rushmore. And even some Lincoln statues have been targeted for destruction.
06-21-2020 10:23 PM
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Ourland Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-21-2020 09:22 PM)Hou_Lawyer Wrote:  The Silent Majority will be engaged at the ballot box. Twitter isn’t the real world.

For God’s sake, they’re now tearing down Teddy Roosevelt and George Washington. But dare to speak out against this behavior and you’re labeled. Piss on them and do your talking where it counts.

That's right!
06-21-2020 11:40 PM
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At Ease Online
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Post: #27
RE: Cancel “Rice”
[Image: 1592787331_17913421+THEODORE+ROOSEVELT+S...;amp;w=525]

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06-22-2020 12:18 AM
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Ourland Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-21-2020 05:52 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(06-21-2020 04:33 PM)Ourland Wrote:  
(06-21-2020 12:24 AM)75src Wrote:  I am getting tired of the iconoclasts. It is getting too far when George Washington and Grant are pulled down. The 54th Mass. statute was spray painted. The Vandals do not know what they do.

You're right

I think they do know. But they are secure in their self-righteousness. It's like when they burn down a Wendy's. All in a good cause.

This too
06-22-2020 01:14 AM
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mebehutchi Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Cancel “Rice”
The Yale saga has been interesting to watch (I'm a local product), not too much friction in removing Calhoun College but when it comes to Eli the double standard kicks in and principal starts to outweigh principle. These are for profit businesses and aggregators of capital whose operating models are already under threat so I'm guessing renaming Yale -- Branford University -- and Rice -- Baker University (if the Capt. was slave free?) ain't happening.

Would the heirs be entitled to the return of funds or any damages? I would think that despite what Wikipedia estimates the original Rice investment would have to be worth a lot more than $130 million.
06-22-2020 08:04 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-21-2020 09:22 PM)Hou_Lawyer Wrote:  The Silent Majority will be engaged at the ballot box. Twitter isn’t the real world.

For God’s sake, they’re now tearing down Teddy Roosevelt and George Washington. But dare to speak out against this behavior and you’re labeled. Piss on them and do your talking where it counts.

Let me get this straight --- they are tearing down the statues of the Roosevelt who *didnt* order and perform a mass incarceration and forced deportation of a group based solely on their heritage, and, at the same time by Executive Order executed a forced internment without trial of United States citizens, again, based solely on not just national origin, but on the basis of their grandparent's national origin.
(This post was last modified: 06-22-2020 08:57 AM by tanqtonic.)
06-22-2020 08:57 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Cancel “Rice”
It is going to be difficult to find a white man who lived as an adult before 1960 who was pure in his racial thoughts by 2020 left wing standards. i am sure almost all at some point made a slur or a joke or just did nothing to help. How many white folks in 1921 went to help the blacks in Tulsa? If they stayed home, do they get a statue?

I think this could go well beyond the naming of various Universities. Yale, Rice, Stanford, Baylor, Brigham Young, Pepperdine, etc. How do we know that Baker, Wiess, Hanszen, et al were pure enough?

How do we know the donors of the funding for the XYZ Chair in Physics or the ABC Chair in Geology were pure enough?

I guess we need a thorough ideological cleansing. We can use China under Mao or NKorea under Kim for a template.

History is history. Alexander the Great may not have been so great in his racial attitudes. No need to rewrite history to show he was Alexander the Racist.
06-22-2020 10:56 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Cancel “Rice”
If anyone is interested in learning about the Roosevelt statue, you can read a little bit here. It was first evaluated for removal in 2017, and the decision made was to provide extra information about it.

Quote: The statue was meant to celebrate Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919) as a devoted naturalist and author of works on natural history. Roosevelt’s father was one of the Museum’s founders, and the Museum is proud of its historic association with the Roosevelt family.
At the same time, the statue itself communicates a racial hierarchy that the Museum and members of the public have long found disturbing. What is the meaning of this statue? And how should we view this historic sculpture today?

The museum has provided some interesting perspectives on the statue - I personally err on the side of leaving it in place and providing this level of detail regarding its production and the historical figures around the statue.

https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/address...elt-statue

[Image: im-201012?width=1280&size=1]
06-22-2020 11:35 AM
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Almadenmike Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-22-2020 11:35 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  If anyone is interested in learning about the Roosevelt statue, you can read a little bit here. ...

https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/address...elt-statue

[Image: im-201012?width=1280&size=1]

The nearly 16-minute video associated with this article is quite informative in places (aside from the too-frequent "I like it/I don't like it" comments from the public). It's well worth viewing (or at least reading the transcript).

There's some information on the written -- and perceived -- intentions of the statue's architect (John Russell Pope) and sculptor (James Earle Fraser).

Rice's David Brinkley is shown three times, with one quote discussing how TR was enlightened (receiving "huge outrage" by inviting the first African American man to the White House (Booker T. Washington) yet also an imperialist figure whose cringe-worth writings had "such a feeling of white supremacy."

(Unfortunately, the museum did not allow copy/paste of any part of the video's transcript.)

Here's a YouTube link to the museum's video, but this version does not include the transcript:


06-22-2020 12:48 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-22-2020 12:48 PM)Almadenmike Wrote:  
(06-22-2020 11:35 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  If anyone is interested in learning about the Roosevelt statue, you can read a little bit here. ...

https://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/address...elt-statue

[Image: im-201012?width=1280&size=1]

The nearly 16-minute video associated with this article is quite informative in places (aside from the too-frequent "I like it/I don't like it" comments from the public). It's well worth viewing (or at least reading the transcript).

There's some information on the written -- and perceived -- intentions of the statue's architect (John Russell Pope) and sculptor (James Earle Fraser).

Rice's David Brinkley is shown three times, with one quote discussing how TR was enlightened (receiving "huge outrage" by inviting the first African American man to the White House (Booker T. Washington) yet also an imperialist figure whose cringe-worth writings had "such a feeling of white supremacy."

(Unfortunately, the museum did not allow copy/paste of any part of the video's transcript.)

Here's a YouTube link to the museum's video, but this version does not include the transcript:



A quick Google also found this article from the NYTimes, when the exhibit opened. Seems like this isn't new history for the statue - as mentioned before, it was first considered for removal in 2017.

Quote:Ideally, exhibition visitors will be able to identify some views that amplify their own and others that offer a new perspective, said the museum’s vice president for exhibition, Lauri Halderman.

“It’s not really about us providing the answer,” Ms. Halderman said. “It’s about us providing the springboard so that everybody else can take a look.”

Providing context is exactly the role of a science-based institution, the museum’s president, Ellen V. Futter, said in an interview. The Natural History museum has already taken a second look at other displays in the same light: The Old New York diorama that includes a stereotypical depiction of Lenape leaders, for example, now has captions on the glass explaining why the display is offensive.

“People used to walk by that diorama and pay absolutely no attention to it,” Ms. Futter said. “Now, they are stopping, they are reading it, and it’s having a high impact.”

I hope it isn't removed, and the current exhibit is made permanent.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/15/arts/...useum.html
06-22-2020 01:12 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Cancel “Rice”
Thanks for the links, Lad.
06-22-2020 01:40 PM
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Almadenmike Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-22-2020 01:12 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Seems like this isn't new history for the statue - as mentioned before, it was first considered for removal in 2017.

Yep. In the video (linked above) David Thomas, the museum's anthropology curator, said "I've been here for parts of five decades, and every one of decades we've had protest against the TR statue."
06-22-2020 04:39 PM
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Intellectual_Brutality Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-21-2020 06:56 AM)Owl1998 Wrote:  
(06-21-2020 12:03 AM)Intellectual_Brutality Wrote:  
(06-20-2020 11:41 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  
(06-20-2020 11:24 PM)Intellectual_Brutality Wrote:  
(06-20-2020 10:51 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  That has to be a joke right? You can just look at any news source and see thats not true.

"Any news source" != majority of progressive public opinion.
Please show me polling on progressives' support for removal of ... of what? All statues? Some statues (which ones)? If you can find polling that shows a majority of progressives supporting removing majority of historical-figure statues, I'll be surprised and gladly shut up. If the claim is that majority of progressives support removing the handful of most egregious statues, then that *may* be true, sure, (though I'd like to see polling still), but then we're outside the scope of the OP, which was Rice-specific

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-det...aseID=3663

Contrary to what you see on the news.. the majority of Americans (77%) approve of the policing in their community. The majority of Americans do not support defunding police. 81% oppose eliminating the police.

85% of Dems (what do progressives identify as?) think confederate statues should be removed (just hit 52% overall). 81% of Dems think army bases shouldn’t be named after confederate figures.

Progressives in San Fran tore down statues of Grant and Francis Scott Key.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com...onal%3famp

A more complete list including Washington and Columbus.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com...ests%3famp

Thanks for those links! I *am* a bit surprised, the support is stronger than I guessed. The Quinnipiac poll is particularly interesting. (The other links are hard to learn from, since they are about specific statues and don't tell us about who did it or how broad the support was)

So, it turns out there is very strong support among Dems (and presumably progressives) for removing the most egregious (Confederate?) statues. It may also surprise OP that this is actually the majority opinion of Americans. Seems fine, but opens the much harder question of which statues beyond Confederate leaders are the most egregious. On that, I'd guess Americans have much less consensus.

Well, let’s put it this way....it’s damn sure not Conservatives who are tearing down statues and graffitiing buildings. It’s damn sure not Conservatives who started the whole “cancel” culture. It’s damn sure not Conservatives who hijacked the legitimacy of the George Floyd protests and used it as a platform for mayhem.

Agree? Or no?

Of course disagree.

It's intellectually sloppy to lump everyone who's "not conservative" into one camp, "the left" or whatever. In reality, under that tent is a wide range of folks, Democrats, progressives, extremists, etc.

Many conservatives would probably find it foolish if everyone equated "conservative" with "neo Nazi," "libertarian," etc, wouldn't they? "Those are all super different!," they'd say, and rightly so. "The left" is similarly heterogeneous, probably more so. FYI, most left people don't endorse lots of stuff we all see on TV / Twitter. I have yet to see any non-anecdotal evidence that tearing down statues of Columbus or cancelling Yale is popular among anything close to a majority of, say, Dems.

That's why it's so comical when people here go on and on about how they're going to vote out the "crazy libs" who want there to be no police, as if the people holding those extreme policy positions are ... elected Democrats. In fact, to best of my knowledge, there's been approximately 0 elected Dems supporting tearing down statues of Grant or shutting down police departments *completely*.
(This post was last modified: 06-22-2020 05:10 PM by Intellectual_Brutality.)
06-22-2020 05:07 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Cancel “Rice”
(06-22-2020 05:07 PM)Intellectual_Brutality Wrote:  Many conservatives would probably find it foolish if everyone equated "conservative" with "neo Nazi,"

I find that characterization comes up quite a bit. yes, I find it foolish. Kind of like characterizing half of a group as deplorables.
06-22-2020 06:49 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Cancel “Rice”
06-22-2020 07:58 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #40
RE: Cancel “Rice”
I selected Rice because I wanted an Ivy-League-quality STEM education 1) with big-time athletics, and 2) without the left-wing Ivy east-coast echo chamber. My choices were Rice, CalTech, MIT, Georgia Tech, and Notre Dame.

CalTech and MIT didn't have big-time sports. I thought Rice was a better STEM school than ND or GaTech. I ended up changing to math/economics undregrad and accounting master's later. I have no regrets about attending Rice. It set up the rest of my life very well in so many ways.

But Rice gave up on 1) long ago, and what I've read over the last few days suggests that 2) is a thing of the past too. If I were choosing today, I would still have the same criteria, and it would probably come down to ND or GaTech, although I hate Alanta and I don't really know how far to the left either have moved. Or maybe go to Auburn, double major in CivE and Agronomy, and become a golf course architect.
06-22-2020 08:26 PM
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