Much as I don't like them tearing down the Confederate statues, I can understand their point of view on those. Unfortunately it's no longer just Confederate statues.

The difference between a traitor and a patriot is only defined by the outcome of the struggle. Both have a conviction as to their motive and feel what they are doing is noble and just. If you simply say winner = patriot, loser = traitor without context you are swimming in the shallow end of the intellectual pool.

Many have died throughout history in losing the battle of a noble cause. Do you view the Confederacy as a noble cause? Likely not, but your view on the nobility of the cause doesn't matter, only the beliefs of the person holding the view are relevant. People fighting for a noble cause for the wrong, impure reasons are the only real traitors in my opinion, whether they win or lose.

(06-22-2020 01:01 PM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 11:55 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 11:27 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 11:16 AM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 11:03 AM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  Jeesh... I always seem to run into the smartest guy in the room.

OK, the war was about state's rights... the most controversial of which was the right to have slaves.

And whatever residuals had yet to be cleared out, the North had moved to abolish slavery by early in the 19th century.

So take your revisionist "the north was just as bad as the south" history and go tear down some statues.

If you're saying thanks for pointing out the truth, then you're welcome.

OK, smart guy.

Now name the other states rights that the south wanted and which ones they felt so strongly enough about that they were willing to secede from the Union over.

... all of which were issues long prior to anti-slavery Lincoln being elected but the didn't secede then.

... and don't give me the "Lincoln would have taken the south back with the slaves in chains" bull. That was contextual just to restore the Union. The 13th amendment was on it's way regardless with the support of Tennessee, Arkansas and Louisiana.

Ever hear of the Nullification crisis over tariffs? When South Carolina nearly seceded in the 1830s? John C. Calhoun resigned as Vice-President over it. Tariffs were a continuing thorn in the side of a South that imported most of its manufactured goods.

Close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades, right?

They didn't secede until Lincoln was elected and it wasn't because of his stance on tariffs.

Jackson compromised so they didn't secede. Learn your history.

As James Carville said, "Its the economy, stupid." Ultimately the Civil War was caused by the economic differences between the regions, of which slavery was a symptom of those economic differences. If it had made economic sense in the north, they would not have abolished it. James Madison was very opposed to slavery. But he couldn't bring himself to free his slaves.

(06-22-2020 01:01 PM)Indytarheel Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 12:44 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 10:16 AM)Indytarheel Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 07:39 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(06-19-2020 03:59 PM)Indytarheel Wrote:  "Driven away"..... very doubtful. Right now we are witnessing an awakening that may or may not continue. Unfortunately, as the majority finally learn the truth, there is going to be some sort of overreaction. Removing this chant is an example of that overreach. Unlike Confederate statues being erected to intimidate (they were erected during Jim Crow era and during the civil rights movement), the origin of that football chant doesn't seem to be connected to that discriminatory thinking. Glad that people are learning the evil that was done to my ancestors. That history of using black babies in trapping gators is something that needs to be taught. Just like many on this board and through out America doesn't know the origins of the ice cream truck song. That song is "****** loves a watermelon, ha, ha, ha". There are plenty of things the majority will take as innocent that have dark origins.

Statues like "Silent Sam" were erected to honor war dead.
287 UNC Students and Faculty lost their lives fighting for their country in the 1861-65 conflict.
If you knew anything about North Carolina history, you would know that a succession referendum was defeated in North Carolina (led by Zebulon Vance) in 1860 and the state didn't succeed until after Fort Sumter when NC found themselves surrounded by the CSA. In a slap in the face to the Confederate government, Vance was elected Governor in 1861. Even though North Carolina supplied the Confederate army with more soldiers that any other state and suffered more deaths than any other state in the Confederacy, the Government in Richmond allowed very few Generals from North Carolina to command armies, because they never fully trusted the leadership of the State.
The final verbiage of the Statue's inscription reads that "Duty is the sublimest word in the English Language" which alludes to the fact that even though not fully committed, when called upon, they honorably performed their Duty (just like many that served in Vietnam.....maybe you want to tear down the wall in Washington, too!)





Intimidating?

Ignorance is bliss. The vast majority of these statues were commissioned and built between the 1890s and 1950s which matches up exactly during the era of Jim Crow segregation. They were commissioned by the Daughters of the Confederacy to commemorate traitors to the United States of America. That's like Germany, France, Great Britain erecting statues of Hilter and his generals. Oh, that's right, those countries had the common sense to not celebrate traitors and losers. It was a power play to intimidate southern blacks so they would not seek their rights. And, it is very obvious except for those who choose to remain blissfully ignorant to the actual facts. Bottom line, this country should have never allowed these statues to be built in the first place. Who celebrates traitors and losers, especially those who fought to keep people enslaved. Erected in 1913, in remembrance of "the sons of the University who died for their beloved Southland 1861-1865," the Confederate monument known as Silent Sam stands on McCorkle place, the University's upper quad, facing Franklin Street. Mrs. H.A. London, stated at the dedication, "In honoring the memory of our Confederate heroes, we must not be misunderstood as having in our hearts any hatred to those who wore the Blue, but we do not wish to forget what has been done for us by those who wore the Gray." Now, tell me again how it wasn't a dog whistle for white supremacy.

Since the issue of secession was not addressed in the Constitution, one could not truthfully call any of the persons living in State that had seceded a traitor.
Your revisionist view may fit your own personal agenda, but it's not history.

People died, they were honored.

Spin, spin, spin. One day they were Americans and the other day they were secessionist (traitors to America). Keep spinning.

The United States banned the importation of slaves starting in 1808.
By the year 1860 a year before the War of Northern Aggression started, approximately 12% (35,000) of the slave population in North Carolina had already been freed. The number of slaves freed and the percentage of slaves freed was even higher in Virginia. Many of these freed slaves owned land and had the right to vote.
Hatred has clouded your limited knowledge of history and I would be embarrassed to learn that you really did have a degree from Carolina.

(06-22-2020 01:45 PM)banker Wrote:  The difference between a traitor and a patriot is only defined by the outcome of the struggle. Both have a conviction as to their motive and feel what they are doing is noble and just. If you simply say winner = patriot, loser = traitor without context you are swimming in the shallow end of the intellectual pool.

Many have died throughout history in losing the battle of a noble cause. Do you view the Confederacy as a noble cause? Likely not, but your view on the nobility of the cause doesn't matter, only the beliefs of the person holding the view are relevant. People fighting for a noble cause for the wrong, impure reasons are the only real traitors in my opinion, whether they win or lose.

Had England stopped the Revolution, the patriots would have been the traitors. The Tories would have been the patriots. The US was not unanimously for independence. And the Confederates viewed themselves as loyal to their states and one who would raise arms against their states, their neighbors and friends, as a traitor.

(06-22-2020 02:06 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-22-2020 01:45 PM)banker Wrote:  The difference between a traitor and a patriot is only defined by the outcome of the struggle. Both have a conviction as to their motive and feel what they are doing is noble and just. If you simply say winner = patriot, loser = traitor without context you are swimming in the shallow end of the intellectual pool.

Many have died throughout history in losing the battle of a noble cause. Do you view the Confederacy as a noble cause? Likely not, but your view on the nobility of the cause doesn't matter, only the beliefs of the person holding the view are relevant. People fighting for a noble cause for the wrong, impure reasons are the only real traitors in my opinion, whether they win or lose.

Had England stopped the Revolution, the patriots would have been the traitors. The Tories would have been the patriots. The US was not unanimously for independence. And the Confederates viewed themselves as loyal to their states and one who would raise arms against their states, their neighbors and friends, as a traitor.

A well stated rebuttal to the Patriots / Traitors statements made earlier. +2