This forum has had dozens of threads about what a mess the G5 conference footprints are and how the SBC and C-USA need to realign. I decided to do some investigating to get to the heart of how we got to where we are and why the G5 conferences have such funky alignment.

It all boils down to ND and their cat and mouse game with the Big Ten.

Colorado and Nebraska triggered Phase 1 of the last realignment cycle in June 2010.

Texas A&M triggered Phase 2 in August 2011.

ND triggered a little discussed Phase 3 in September 2012 that led to the Big East Spit.

Had ND moved in Phase 2, say within a couple of weeks or days of the departures of Pitt and Cuse on Sept 18, 2011 and WVU’s departure on Oct 28, 2011 we likely would have seen the Big Ten make their expansion move in 2011, not 2012. The Big Ten was literally sitting there waiting to see what ND was going to to. If ND moves in 2011 so doe the Big Ten. Louisville and Rutgers are snatched from the Big East’s dwindling football membership. The accelerated timeline of departures (5 of 8 in 2011 rather than just 3) gives the Big East no reaction time to rebuild (it wasn’t until Dec 11, 2011 that the BE made its first expansion announcement).

The Big East sits at UConn, Cincinnati, USF, and the Catholic 7. The Catholic 7 say no football expansion. Cincy and USF say fine, we’re going to C-USA I guess and UConn plays as a football independent and BE for everything else.

The MAC is sitting at their current line up plus fb affiliates UMass and Temple.

C-USA East: USF, UCF, ECU, UAB, Cincy, Memphis, Marshall
C-USA West: USM, Tulane, Rice, Houston, SMU, Tulsa, UTEP

MWC: SDSU, Fresno St, Boise St, Nevada, UNLV, Wyoming, Colo St, AFA, UNM +Hawaii (fb only)

SBC: UNT, Ark St, ULL, ULM, USA, Troy, WKU, MTSU, FAU, FIU +UALR (non-fb)

WAC: SJSU, Idaho, Utah St, NMSU, Texas St, UTSA, LA Tech +non fb Seattle, Denver, and UTA

The MWC, SBC, and WAC would be at 10,10, and 7 so there is a possibility that they add some members to get to 12 and a CCG.

C-USA and the SBC and the MWC and WAC have notable footprint overlap but C-USA and the MWC are decidedly stronger conferences than their counterparts.

I've always blamed ND for everyone blaming Texas as the big bad wolf in the demise of the original Big 12. ND is pure evil.

UC would not have gone back to CUSA. We have wound up in the AAC which in many respects is CUSA v1 all over again, but the guy who was then president at the time got fired for how things shook out with the BE demise and how it wound up for Cincinnati.

If things shook out as you said I am guessing the C7 and UC,USF and UConn would have stayed together as the Big East with the three football schools playing Indy. Not sure how valid it is but I have heard pretty high up the UC chain that was actually a real possibility of happening.

I think you’re missing the point. Had the Big East lost 5 football schools and ND in a span of 3 months there would be no time to add anyone.

When the actual Big East got down to that trio plus the Catholic 7 the Catholic 7 put their foot down and said no more football adds.

Maybe in that situation all 3 opt for football independence but staying in the BE would make little sense for USF. C-USA would be the best place to go for football if that happened.

Yawn.

(06-11-2020 09:24 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I think you’re missing the point. Had the Big East lost 5 football schools and ND in a span of 3 months there would be no time to add anyone.

When the actual Big East got down to that trio plus the Catholic 7 the Catholic 7 put their foot down and said no more football adds.

Maybe in that situation all 3 opt for football independence but staying in the BE would make little sense for USF. C-USA would be the best place to go for football if that happened.

Let's see...

USF's options would have been (in your opinion) to stay in an all sports conference (including basketball) with Villanova, Georgetown, UConn, Cincinnati, Marquette and the rest of the C7 and move football to independence, meaning annual games with Cincinnati and UConn, or gone back to CUSA? Obviously impossible for me to answer (I'm not a member of USF's upper administration), but I would bet USF would have stayed in the Big East and started looking for a football-only affiliation or tried to go it independent.

USFFan

(06-11-2020 09:24 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I think you’re missing the point. Had the Big East lost 5 football schools and ND in a span of 3 months there would be no time to add anyone.

I see a glitch in your timeline: IMO the B1G's last wave of expansion didn't depend on Notre Dame. Let's say that Notre Dame announces it is moving its non-football stuff from the Big East to the ACC in November 2011, right after Cuse, Pitt, and WV leave.

What does the B1G do? Nothing at that time, because the key to the 2012 expansion wasn't ND, it was Maryland. The B1G was never interested in Louisville, and they weren't interested in Rutgers by themselves. They needed Maryland, but an abrupt invitation to Maryland in 2011 would likely have been rejected. Maryland required some groundwork because they were founding members of the ACC and the Maryland community was divided by the prospects of leaving. It took well in to 2012 when it became clear that ACC finances just weren't working for Maryland to decide to want to leave - and that's what triggered the joint invite with Rutgers, and then the ACC backfilling with Louisville.

So to me, ND really was a small player in that. Maryland was the key, and Maryland took well in to 2012 to "ripen" towards leaving the ACC.

(06-11-2020 09:06 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If ND moves in 2011 so doe the Big Ten. Louisville and Rutgers are snatched from the Big East’s dwindling football membership.

There's something to this--it explains the timing of the Big Ten move to 14 in the fall of 2012. Delaney's waiting game with Notre Dame was over, then he started shaking the ACC tree to see what, if any, apples would fall. The ACC core held together, Big Ten moved down the list to Maryland and Rutgers.

And Missouri really wanted the Big Ten over the SEC. If the Big Ten is moving, they may well go to 16 at that point, with Kansas, Missouri, Rutgers and Maryland. West Virginia gets a ticket to the SEC.

One piece of the puzzle we don't have, and probably never really get, is the internals on the ACC's change of position from "full members only" to "Notre Dame is an exception." Because if Notre Dame can be an ACC member and a I-A Independent, why can't ...... Texas? Blow the Big 12 ALL the way up, work a deal between ESPN's Longhorn Network and Raycom.....

2011 Timeline.
Sept 6 Texas A&M conditionally accepted to SEC (pending resolution of Baylor lawsuit threat)
Sept 18. ACC invites Syracuse, Pitt.
Sept 26. Missouri is rumored to be the SEC's pick, over West Virginia. Rumors, dated 9/26/2011

(06-11-2020 10:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-11-2020 09:24 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I think you’re missing the point. Had the Big East lost 5 football schools and ND in a span of 3 months there would be no time to add anyone.

I see a glitch in your timeline: IMO the B1G's last wave of expansion didn't depend on Notre Dame. Let's say that Notre Dame announces it is moving its non-football stuff from the Big East to the ACC in November 2011, right after Cuse, Pitt, and WV leave.

What does the B1G do? Nothing at that time, because the key to the 2012 expansion wasn't ND, it was Maryland. The B1G was never interested in Louisville, and they weren't interested in Rutgers by themselves. They needed Maryland, but an abrupt invitation to Maryland in 2011 would likely have been rejected. Maryland required some groundwork because they were founding members of the ACC and the Maryland community was divided by the prospects of leaving. It took well in to 2012 when it became clear that ACC finances just weren't working for Maryland to decide to want to leave - and that's what triggered the joint invite with Rutgers, and then the ACC backfilling with Louisville.

So to me, ND really was a small player in that. Maryland was the key, and Maryland took well in to 2012 to "ripen" towards leaving the ACC.

Quo—I very much see the Big Ten’s move as reactionary. They didn’t go beyond 12 until it became clear that ND and the ACC had reached an agreement.

Sept 18, 2012 ND to the ACC
Nov 19-20, 2012 Maryland and Rutgers to the Big Ten

IMO Delaney was trying to put together a plan to add 3 East Coast schools and ND for 16. ND makes it clear that they are unavailable and 2 months later the scaled down plan is revealed.

Maryland was a secondary player in all of this. Plan A was ND plus 3 East Coast markets (or ND and 1 East Coast market if you’re feeling less daring). The media partners and Big Ten brass still saw value in those East Coast markets without ND so they went after the AAU schools that were in those markets: Maryland and Rutgers.

I’ll give you credit, I think Maryland did spend some time mulling it over and they may have known in 2011 the Big Ten was looking at them but ND’s decision is what delayed the Bog Ten’s actions.

(06-11-2020 10:28 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(06-11-2020 09:06 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If ND moves in 2011 so doe the Big Ten. Louisville and Rutgers are snatched from the Big East’s dwindling football membership.

There's something to this--it explains the timing of the Big Ten move to 14 in the fall of 2012. Delaney's waiting game with Notre Dame was over, then he started shaking the ACC tree to see what, if any, apples would fall. The ACC core held together, Big Ten moved down the list to Maryland and Rutgers.

And Missouri really wanted the Big Ten over the SEC. If the Big Ten is moving, they may well go to 16 at that point, with Kansas, Missouri, Rutgers and Maryland. West Virginia gets a ticket to the SEC.

One piece of the puzzle we don't have, and probably never really get, is the internals on the ACC's change of position from "full members only" to "Notre Dame is an exception." Because if Notre Dame can be an ACC member and a I-A Independent, why can't ...... Texas? Blow the Big 12 ALL the way up, work a deal between ESPN's Longhorn Network and Raycom.....

2011 Timeline.
Sept 6 Texas A&M conditionally accepted to SEC (pending resolution of Baylor lawsuit threat)
Sept 18. ACC invites Syracuse, Pitt.
Sept 26. Missouri is rumored to be the SEC's pick, over West Virginia. Rumors, dated 9/26/2011

I’m glad you’re seeing the same things I’m seeing. The SEC was going to have 14 members in 2012, the ACC was going to be at 14 members in 2013. The Big Ten wanted to be at least 14 to keep pace.

They wanted ND in that plan and when it became clear that that wasn’t happening they resorted to Plan B.

I find it ironic that the move the ACC made out of concern for SEC poaching—Pitt and Cuse in Sept 2011 may have ultimately ended up fouling the Big Ten the following year as those 2 could have been potential pieces in the puzzle to land ND. I also think nabbing those NE markets made the ACC more amenable to ND.

The ACC made the decision to do a partial membership for ND because it was their only recourse. If the Big Ten crew stronger with ND then the SEC was going to feel obliged to make a similar move and they saw their southern flank—Clemson and FSU as vulnerable for poaching. I think it’s also part of the reason why Tobacco Road let the football faction hand pick Louisville when UConn was their preferred candidate.

(06-11-2020 09:24 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I think you’re missing the point. Had the Big East lost 5 football schools and ND in a span of 3 months there would be no time to add anyone.

When the actual Big East got down to that trio plus the Catholic 7 the Catholic 7 put their foot down and said no more football adds.

Maybe in that situation all 3 opt for football independence but staying in the BE would make little sense for USF. C-USA would be the best place to go for football if that happened.

They would not have added anyone. For a year at least it would have been

UC
USF
UConn
Georgetown
St. John's
Providence
Seton Hall
Marquette
DePaul
.

That's a 9 team basketball league. That would have been an 18 team conference schedule and would have worked for one season. They probably would have added Butler and Creighton for the following year, and then one of XU or Dayton to get to 12.

(06-11-2020 10:02 AM)usffan Wrote:  

(06-11-2020 09:24 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I think you’re missing the point. Had the Big East lost 5 football schools and ND in a span of 3 months there would be no time to add anyone.

When the actual Big East got down to that trio plus the Catholic 7 the Catholic 7 put their foot down and said no more football adds.

Maybe in that situation all 3 opt for football independence but staying in the BE would make little sense for USF. C-USA would be the best place to go for football if that happened.

Let's see...

USF's options would have been (in your opinion) to stay in an all sports conference (including basketball) with Villanova, Georgetown, UConn, Cincinnati, Marquette and the rest of the C7 and move football to independence, meaning annual games with Cincinnati and UConn, or gone back to CUSA? Obviously impossible for me to answer (I'm not a member of USF's upper administration), but I would bet USF would have stayed in the Big East and started looking for a football-only affiliation or tried to go it independent.

USFFan

Maybe they decide to stay. The Big East is a pretty respected name.

If they could make football independence work or a affiliate relationship with C-USA then maybe the name recognition is worth the travel expense. It does fit with the Step-Above-UCF the USF president had at the time. An NFL stadium in Tampa is a pretty attractive place to play an away game for P5s and G5’s.

Lock Independents BYU, Cincy, and UConn into long term deals.
Sign UCF, FIU, and FAU as annual opponents.
That leaves 6 openings for an FCS school, some P5s, and fill in the rest with G5 opponents.

There’s another scenario I thought of:

What if the Catholic 7 agree to a status quo move with the football 3–8 football schools & 8 basketball schools

Butler becomes the 8th BB school
UCF, Houston, SMU, Memphis, and Temple replace the 5 lost fb schools. Navy becomes a fb affiliate.

If the Catholic 7 were willing to accept these terms a peace might have been reached.

(06-11-2020 10:56 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  IMO Delaney was trying to put together a plan to add 3 East Coast schools and ND for 16. ND makes it clear that they are unavailable and 2 months later the scaled down plan is revealed.

I think Plan A was to make the best available move to the East Coast inside the limits of what the Big Ten Presidents would accept.

The "ACC moves in 2011" Question for the Big Ten is whether Maryland would have been available, or whether Maryland needed until 2012 to position themselves to move. That I don't know.

But it seems to me that if the Big East had been raided of schools too quickly for the FB schools to have the votes to add FB schools without the basketball programs the C7 considered worthy of the Big East, UConn and UC would have gone independent in FB and remained in the Big East. USF was the only prospect for going to CUSA as the best available FB conference.

(06-11-2020 10:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-11-2020 09:24 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I think you’re missing the point. Had the Big East lost 5 football schools and ND in a span of 3 months there would be no time to add anyone.

I see a glitch in your timeline: IMO the B1G's last wave of expansion didn't depend on Notre Dame. Let's say that Notre Dame announces it is moving its non-football stuff from the Big East to the ACC in November 2011, right after Cuse, Pitt, and WV leave.

What does the B1G do? Nothing at that time, because the key to the 2012 expansion wasn't ND, it was Maryland. The B1G was never interested in Louisville, and they weren't interested in Rutgers by themselves. They needed Maryland, but an abrupt invitation to Maryland in 2011 would likely have been rejected. Maryland required some groundwork because they were founding members of the ACC and the Maryland community was divided by the prospects of leaving. It took well in to 2012 when it became clear that ACC finances just weren't working for Maryland to decide to want to leave - and that's what triggered the joint invite with Rutgers, and then the ACC backfilling with Louisville.

So to me, ND really was a small player in that. Maryland was the key, and Maryland took well in to 2012 to "ripen" towards leaving the ACC.

I believe that ND’s relationship with the ACC was absolutely the key to getting the BIG to expand from 12 to 14 members. UMD leaders were already flirting with the BIG and likely wanted to be the 12th member starting in 2010. UMD leaders were likely disappointed when the BIG choose UNL as their 12th member.

Before the ND relationship with the ACC was finalized, the ACC asked schools to increase the “exit fees”. Prior to the GOR, exit fees were used by the ACC and ESPN to help ensure the stability of a conference when negotiating long term media contracts. Wallace Loh, UMD’s president, was the architect of the 1.0x (of the annual ACC media rights distribution per team) exit fee in the late 2000s. In the summer of 2011 (IIRC), the ACC increased the exit fees to 2.5x...all universities except two voted for the increased fees (UMD and FSU). It’s too coincidental that UMD leaders first developed the exit fee concept...and then completely reversed their stance a few years later.

More damming, during the litigation divorce proceedings between UMD and the ACC...it was suggested that UMD had been providing the BIG with the ACC’s expansion and media strategies. The suggestion was that UMD was sharing confidential information in order to buttress BIG administrators need for further expansion (from 12 to 14). It all suggests that there was long-term interest by UMD leaders to go the BIG...but only once ND moved to the ACC, did all pieces come together for an invitation from the BIG to UMD.

Big Ten moved on 14 because B1G-PAC fell through. I’m sure it felt really good to take expansion out on the ACC where ND semi-landed, though.

(06-11-2020 11:42 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  It all suggests that there was long-term interest by UMD leaders to go the BIG...but only once ND moved to the ACC, did all pieces come together for an invitation from the BIG to UMD.

Yet it remains compatible with UMD leadership interested in the move, but needing time to be in a position where they thought they could get it through.

The timing on the Maryland move seems more the PAC-12 / Big Ten alliance falling apart than anything else. Even if ND had moved to the ACC in 2011, as long as the PAC-12 / Big Ten scheduling alliance still seemed a possibility, the Big10 was going to hold at 12{+} rather than move to 14{++} or more.

{+ which by arithmetic implies a Little 2}
{++ which by arithmetic implies a Little 4}

(06-11-2020 11:11 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(06-11-2020 10:28 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(06-11-2020 09:06 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If ND moves in 2011 so doe the Big Ten. Louisville and Rutgers are snatched from the Big East’s dwindling football membership.

There's something to this--it explains the timing of the Big Ten move to 14 in the fall of 2012. Delaney's waiting game with Notre Dame was over, then he started shaking the ACC tree to see what, if any, apples would fall. The ACC core held together, Big Ten moved down the list to Maryland and Rutgers.

And Missouri really wanted the Big Ten over the SEC. If the Big Ten is moving, they may well go to 16 at that point, with Kansas, Missouri, Rutgers and Maryland. West Virginia gets a ticket to the SEC.

One piece of the puzzle we don't have, and probably never really get, is the internals on the ACC's change of position from "full members only" to "Notre Dame is an exception." Because if Notre Dame can be an ACC member and a I-A Independent, why can't ...... Texas? Blow the Big 12 ALL the way up, work a deal between ESPN's Longhorn Network and Raycom.....

2011 Timeline.
Sept 6 Texas A&M conditionally accepted to SEC (pending resolution of Baylor lawsuit threat)
Sept 18. ACC invites Syracuse, Pitt.
Sept 26. Missouri is rumored to be the SEC's pick, over West Virginia. Rumors, dated 9/26/2011

I’m glad you’re seeing the same things I’m seeing. The SEC was going to have 14 members in 2012, the ACC was going to be at 14 members in 2013. The Big Ten wanted to be at least 14 to keep pace.

They wanted ND in that plan and when it became clear that that wasn’t happening they resorted to Plan B.

I find it ironic that the move the ACC made out of concern for SEC poaching—Pitt and Cuse in Sept 2011 may have ultimately ended up fouling the Big Ten the following year as those 2 could have been potential pieces in the puzzle to land ND. I also think nabbing those NE markets made the ACC more amenable to ND.

The ACC made the decision to do a partial membership for ND because it was their only recourse. If the Big Ten crew stronger with ND then the SEC was going to feel obliged to make a similar move and they saw their southern flank—Clemson and FSU as vulnerable for poaching. I think it’s also part of the reason why Tobacco Road let the football faction hand pick Louisville when UConn was their preferred candidate.

See, you convict Jim Delany with you own words. He is the scheming bastard who has the "G5" blood on his hands that you now complain of (and go out of your way to "blame" ND for).

If he had not tried to corral ND and those other schools in the first place, that complained about damage would not have occurred.

Delany should have just held pat at 12 schools and "saved" us from the G5 chaos you describe.

(06-11-2020 11:11 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(06-11-2020 10:28 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(06-11-2020 09:06 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If ND moves in 2011 so doe the Big Ten. Louisville and Rutgers are snatched from the Big East’s dwindling football membership.

There's something to this--it explains the timing of the Big Ten move to 14 in the fall of 2012. Delaney's waiting game with Notre Dame was over, then he started shaking the ACC tree to see what, if any, apples would fall. The ACC core held together, Big Ten moved down the list to Maryland and Rutgers.

And Missouri really wanted the Big Ten over the SEC. If the Big Ten is moving, they may well go to 16 at that point, with Kansas, Missouri, Rutgers and Maryland. West Virginia gets a ticket to the SEC.

One piece of the puzzle we don't have, and probably never really get, is the internals on the ACC's change of position from "full members only" to "Notre Dame is an exception." Because if Notre Dame can be an ACC member and a I-A Independent, why can't ...... Texas? Blow the Big 12 ALL the way up, work a deal between ESPN's Longhorn Network and Raycom.....

2011 Timeline.
Sept 6 Texas A&M conditionally accepted to SEC (pending resolution of Baylor lawsuit threat)
Sept 18. ACC invites Syracuse, Pitt.
Sept 26. Missouri is rumored to be the SEC's pick, over West Virginia. Rumors, dated 9/26/2011

I’m glad you’re seeing the same things I’m seeing. The SEC was going to have 14 members in 2012, the ACC was going to be at 14 members in 2013. The Big Ten wanted to be at least 14 to keep pace.

They wanted ND in that plan and when it became clear that that wasn’t happening they resorted to Plan B.

I find it ironic that the move the ACC made out of concern for SEC poaching—Pitt and Cuse in Sept 2011 may have ultimately ended up fouling the Big Ten the following year as those 2 could have been potential pieces in the puzzle to land ND. I also think nabbing those NE markets made the ACC more amenable to ND.

The ACC made the decision to do a partial membership for ND because it was their only recourse. If the Big Ten crew stronger with ND then the SEC was going to feel obliged to make a similar move and they saw their southern flank—Clemson and FSU as vulnerable for poaching. I think it’s also part of the reason why Tobacco Road let the football faction hand pick Louisville when UConn was their preferred candidate.

.


You vastly, vastly overrate this as far as ND is concerned.

Pitt and Syracuse are not as important to ND's conference decisions as you seem to think.

Boston to Miami exposure was nice. Private school composition was nice. Basketball, lacrosse and baseball was nice.

But...by far..........ND joined the ACC primarily because it allowed a partial membership that kept the football program independent.

That was the clincher, far more important than the membership of Pitt and Syracuse in the conference.

(Hell, ND plays Pitt less now than before both were in the ACC)

Full stop.

(06-11-2020 11:42 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(06-11-2020 10:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-11-2020 09:24 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I think you’re missing the point. Had the Big East lost 5 football schools and ND in a span of 3 months there would be no time to add anyone.

I see a glitch in your timeline: IMO the B1G's last wave of expansion didn't depend on Notre Dame. Let's say that Notre Dame announces it is moving its non-football stuff from the Big East to the ACC in November 2011, right after Cuse, Pitt, and WV leave.

What does the B1G do? Nothing at that time, because the key to the 2012 expansion wasn't ND, it was Maryland. The B1G was never interested in Louisville, and they weren't interested in Rutgers by themselves. They needed Maryland, but an abrupt invitation to Maryland in 2011 would likely have been rejected. Maryland required some groundwork because they were founding members of the ACC and the Maryland community was divided by the prospects of leaving. It took well in to 2012 when it became clear that ACC finances just weren't working for Maryland to decide to want to leave - and that's what triggered the joint invite with Rutgers, and then the ACC backfilling with Louisville.

So to me, ND really was a small player in that. Maryland was the key, and Maryland took well in to 2012 to "ripen" towards leaving the ACC.

I believe that ND’s relationship with the ACC was absolutely the key to getting the BIG to expand from 12 to 14 members. UMD leaders were already flirting with the BIG and likely wanted to be the 12th member starting in 2010. UMD leaders were likely disappointed when the BIG choose UNL as their 12th member.

Before the ND relationship with the ACC was finalized, the ACC asked schools to increase the “exit fees”. Prior to the GOR, exit fees were used by the ACC and ESPN to help ensure the stability of a conference when negotiating long term media contracts. Wallace Loh, UMD’s president, was the architect of the 1.0x (of the annual ACC media rights distribution per team) exit fee in the late 2000s. In the summer of 2011 (IIRC), the ACC increased the exit fees to 2.5x...all universities except two voted for the increased fees (UMD and FSU). It’s too coincidental that UMD leaders first developed the exit fee concept...and then completely reversed their stance a few years later.

More damming, during the litigation divorce proceedings between UMD and the ACC...it was suggested that UMD had been providing the BIG with the ACC’s expansion and media strategies. The suggestion was that UMD was sharing confidential information in order to buttress BIG administrators need for further expansion (from 12 to 14). It all suggests that there was long-term interest by UMD leaders to go the BIG...but only once ND moved to the ACC, did all pieces come together for an invitation from the BIG to UMD.

3.0X...not 2.5x
It also disturbing that you called the Virginia town of Ararat (just across the NC border from Mt. Airy, NC home of Andy Griffith), Arafat (former PLO leader), which is not a mistake that any Virginian would make.
Statefan already called you out on this error in another thread.


BTW...Ararat is the Mountain in Turkey that is where Noah's ark rested on dry land after the great flood.

https://volcanohotspot.wordpress.com/201...-mountain/
Mount Ararat (Agri Dagi) is located in the far eastern part of Turkey, Armenia, near the border of Iran. It is the mythical resting place of Noah’s Ark, as mentioned in the Book of Genesis. Ararat was the first mountain poking above the flood waters as they receded following the Great Flood. It is revered by both Armenians and Christians.


For someone who claims Virginia and ACC heritage your amount of knowledge is questionable.

(06-11-2020 02:26 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(06-11-2020 11:11 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(06-11-2020 10:28 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(06-11-2020 09:06 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If ND moves in 2011 so doe the Big Ten. Louisville and Rutgers are snatched from the Big East’s dwindling football membership.

There's something to this--it explains the timing of the Big Ten move to 14 in the fall of 2012. Delaney's waiting game with Notre Dame was over, then he started shaking the ACC tree to see what, if any, apples would fall. The ACC core held together, Big Ten moved down the list to Maryland and Rutgers.

And Missouri really wanted the Big Ten over the SEC. If the Big Ten is moving, they may well go to 16 at that point, with Kansas, Missouri, Rutgers and Maryland. West Virginia gets a ticket to the SEC.

One piece of the puzzle we don't have, and probably never really get, is the internals on the ACC's change of position from "full members only" to "Notre Dame is an exception." Because if Notre Dame can be an ACC member and a I-A Independent, why can't ...... Texas? Blow the Big 12 ALL the way up, work a deal between ESPN's Longhorn Network and Raycom.....

2011 Timeline.
Sept 6 Texas A&M conditionally accepted to SEC (pending resolution of Baylor lawsuit threat)
Sept 18. ACC invites Syracuse, Pitt.
Sept 26. Missouri is rumored to be the SEC's pick, over West Virginia. Rumors, dated 9/26/2011

I’m glad you’re seeing the same things I’m seeing. The SEC was going to have 14 members in 2012, the ACC was going to be at 14 members in 2013. The Big Ten wanted to be at least 14 to keep pace.

They wanted ND in that plan and when it became clear that that wasn’t happening they resorted to Plan B.

I find it ironic that the move the ACC made out of concern for SEC poaching—Pitt and Cuse in Sept 2011 may have ultimately ended up fouling the Big Ten the following year as those 2 could have been potential pieces in the puzzle to land ND. I also think nabbing those NE markets made the ACC more amenable to ND.

The ACC made the decision to do a partial membership for ND because it was their only recourse. If the Big Ten crew stronger with ND then the SEC was going to feel obliged to make a similar move and they saw their southern flank—Clemson and FSU as vulnerable for poaching. I think it’s also part of the reason why Tobacco Road let the football faction hand pick Louisville when UConn was their preferred candidate.

See, you convict Jim Delany with you own words. He is the scheming bastard who has the "G5" blood on his hands that you now complain of (and go out of your way to "blame" ND for).

If he had not tried to corral ND and those other schools in the first place, that complained about damage would not have occurred.

Wow! Big Jim did all of this on his own? That man was more powerful than even I imagined.

I will say this is just another thread of undeserved attention (good or bad) that Notre Dame is recieving. I personally wish Notre Dame was 100% independent in footbal, that's where they belong. I'm sure some fans of ACC schools love the setup, others see it as a cancer. I tend to agree with the latter. I respect Notre Dame, but I don't like anything about them and I'm well aware that you feel the same about BIG schools. The Big 10 conference and Notre Dame is a marriage that should never happen, never ever!

With respect, Go Irish!