(06-08-2020 07:44 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(06-08-2020 05:36 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(06-08-2020 02:45 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Also in education, over 20% of top public university seats are reserved for not just out of state students but for international because they pay more, even as it turns away children of Californians, most of color. ...

If you are objecting to caps on international enrollments at the University of California schools, are you arguing that removing the caps would mean the University of Califorinia "turning away" fewer in-state students?

The caps are far too high given the demand situation.

Feeling that the caps are too high does not justify misrepresenting them as places reserved for International students.

If college athletic departments want to improve their present almost non-existent impact among Chinese students, they've got to focus on trying to get them to come out for Basketball games. The NBA is so popular in China, but so few Chinese students have any idea where the NBA players of the future are coming from.

(06-08-2020 02:45 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  There is nothing in Progressive policies, if California is the standard, for any cap on the super rich or powerful companies, even helping monopolies, or any opposition to super high salaries. In fact there are incentives, tax holidays (some more than a decade), free utilities (includes fiber optic), exemption from environmental impact, and even free land (well rent free land). Also in education, over 20% of top public university seats are reserved for not just out of state students but for international because they pay more, even as it turns away children of Californians, most of color. Their banking policies are similar, as is their support of wealth being passed down from generation to generation.

I have a very hard time reconciling the policies of elected progressives with either their own rhetoric or the original progressives around the the beginning of the 20th century who were trust busters among other things. I find nothing much in common.

Things like salary caps and tax brackets tend to go through cycles. Under Republican President Eisenhowever, top income earners owed as much as 75% of their income in taxes, although there were loopholes, as there are now.

Income inequality is becoming a major political issue. It's likely that there will be some significant changes in the next 5-10 years.

(06-08-2020 02:18 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  So much has been made about the ethical grounds of endorsements for amateur players in college sports against a backdrop of a pandemic where the entire athletic model as we know it is under stress.

But with almost every university in the country either cutting faculty in light of the situation, making pay cuts or at the very least not extending raises how can universities justify coaches which are making over 5 million plus?

Coach K at Duke is making a salary of 7.3 million dollars. Making 7.3 mill and he is 73 years of age. Could you imagine what his university monthly pension is on his high 3 earning years?

If universities are the bastions of progressive thought they say they are why can't the band together and adhere to a salary cap?

There is some support for this. For instance, back in February, the Big 12's commish Bob Bowlsby, who may be a Marxist at heart, asked Congress to regulate coaches' salaries.

Most of those giant salary numbers are paid by booster clubs or marketing departments. Will Muschamps official state salary is only $1 million. The last I checked Swinneys was only $250 thousand

(06-09-2020 07:19 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  Most of those giant salary numbers are paid by booster clubs or marketing departments. Will Muschamps official state salary is only $1 million. The last I checked Swinneys was only $250 thousand

Good point. If memory serves, the max allowable salary for an Alabama public employee like Nick Saban is somewhere between 200 & 300 grand, far far below what he actually makes.

The important thing to remember from the perspective of most NCAA people, I guess, is that boosters be allowed to buy wins and championships without putting money into the pockets of players -- the majority of whom, in FBS football at least, live below the federal poverty line. That would be outrageous.

(06-08-2020 06:05 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-08-2020 05:50 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-08-2020 05:36 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(06-08-2020 02:45 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Also in education, over 20% of top public university seats are reserved for not just out of state students but for international because they pay more, even as it turns away children of Californians, most of color. ...

If you are objecting to caps on international enrollments at the University of California schools, are you arguing that removing the caps would mean the University of Califorinia "turning away" fewer in-state students?

There was an Emory University admin who said if they did their admissions solely on scores and grades, their entire university would be Chinese.

... and I would have zero problem with that. And I am not Chinese.

There is rampant cheating on SAT exams in China.

The actual SAT exams themselves are for sale ahead of time to high enough bidders: https://www.insidehighered.com/admission...lable-asia

There's concerns that the cheating methods that were perfected in China are making their way into the USA.

Cheating is part of the culture in China. It's encouraged; it's viewed as the smart thing to do. People who cheat to get ahead are envied, not despised.

I saw one article (forget where it was) which found that the biggest single determinant of retractions of scientific articles due to fraud was the country where the researcher went to high school.

(06-08-2020 06:10 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  If you're not paying at least greater than 50% of what the top CFP schools are paying than essentially you're a mid major in the system.

I agree with that, and I also think that G5 schools are mid-majors in the system. The P5/G5 makes the distinction between the Major and Mid-Major conferences, just like in hoops the ACC and B1G are Major conferences and the WAC and MAC are Mid-Major conferences.

(06-08-2020 07:49 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(06-08-2020 07:44 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(06-08-2020 05:36 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(06-08-2020 02:45 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Also in education, over 20% of top public university seats are reserved for not just out of state students but for international because they pay more, even as it turns away children of Californians, most of color. ...

If you are objecting to caps on international enrollments at the University of California schools, are you arguing that removing the caps would mean the University of Califorinia "turning away" fewer in-state students?

The caps are far too high given the demand situation.

Feeling that the caps are too high does not justify misrepresenting them as places reserved for International students.

If college athletic departments want to improve their present almost non-existent impact among Chinese students, they've got to focus on trying to get them to come out for Basketball games. The NBA is so popular in China, but so few Chinese students have any idea where the NBA players of the future are coming from.

These "caps" are misnomers.

Universities don't cap enrollment per se. They put enrollment at the point where they don't lose money.

Chinese students are profitable. Californian students are unprofitable. The university has to balance their budget, so admitting Chinese students allows them to either charge Californian students less or admit more Californians.

At the end of the day, admitting Chinese students allows MORE spaces for American students.

The USA has over 1 million foreign students. Most pay full tuition plus living costs (ranges from 40k at Memphis or Houston to 67k at UCLA to 80k at U of Chicago), so it's a $40-$60 billion export industry. That's a bigger export industry than corn, wine, bourbon, tractors, and the entire defense industry combined. And the best part - we get to keep the most productive students as immigrants because they'll get highly productive jobs in the US.

(06-08-2020 02:44 PM)whittx Wrote:  

(06-08-2020 02:18 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  So much has been made about the ethical grounds of endorsements for amateur players in college sports against a backdrop of a pandemic where the entire athletic model as we know it is under stress.

But with almost every university in the country either cutting faculty in light of the situation, making pay cuts or at the very least not extending raises how can universities justify coaches which are making over 5 million plus?

Coach K at Duke is making a salary of 7.3 million dollars. Making 7.3 mill and he is 73 years of age. Could you imagine what his university monthly pension is on his high 3 earning years?

If universities are the bastions of progressive thought they say they are why can't the band together and adhere to a salary cap?

But only a percentage of that is paid by the university. The rest tends to be paid through the boosters or a similar entity. Totally agree and would take it a step further and cap the salaries of the entire coaching staff at that figure.

This post should have ended this thread. No, really. The university is not paying Saban's salary.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

(06-09-2020 05:53 AM)chester Wrote:  

(06-08-2020 02:18 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  So much has been made about the ethical grounds of endorsements for amateur players in college sports against a backdrop of a pandemic where the entire athletic model as we know it is under stress.

But with almost every university in the country either cutting faculty in light of the situation, making pay cuts or at the very least not extending raises how can universities justify coaches which are making over 5 million plus?

Coach K at Duke is making a salary of 7.3 million dollars. Making 7.3 mill and he is 73 years of age. Could you imagine what his university monthly pension is on his high 3 earning years?

If universities are the bastions of progressive thought they say they are why can't the band together and adhere to a salary cap?

There is some support for this. For instance, back in February, the Big 12's commish Bob Bowlsby, who may be a Marxist at heart, asked Congress to regulate coaches' salaries.

At that link, Bowlsby was citing Marx to justify NOT paying athletes, and given that it's extremely unlikely Marx would have argued for anyone who works as hard as a college athlete to be paid nothing, it appears that Bowlsby doesn't know squat about Marx or any other kind of economics, and that Bowlsby's opinions on the subject are worth exactly as much as you paid for them.

(06-09-2020 10:35 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-08-2020 06:10 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  If you're not paying at least greater than 50% of what the top CFP schools are paying than essentially you're a mid major in the system.

I agree with that, and I also think that G5 schools are mid-majors in the system. The P5/G5 makes the distinction between the Major and Mid-Major conferences, just like in hoops the ACC and B1G are Major conferences and the WAC and MAC are Mid-Major conferences.

The top coach is paid 9.5 million. 50% of that is 4.75 million.

FBS looking at salaries is a 4 tier system.

I: 9.5 million to 4.75 million (20 programs)
II: 4.75 million to 2.375 million (45 programs)
III: 2.375 million to 1.1875 million (26 programs)
IV 1.1875 million & below (38 programs)

In category 2 resides Cincinnati, Navy, Memphis and Houston

In category 3 resides Syracuse, Wake Forest, Arizona, Oregon St, Indiana

Only 20 programs are paying enough to stay within a standard deviation of the top programs while all the remainder are forced into a mid major price structure, including most P5 programs.

This is my top argument for a salary cap is that without it its stratifying college football into too many levels to the point where many of the P5 knowing they can't win have just given up.

Go back to the 90's and Syracuse was probably a Top 20 job in college FB. Now its way down the list.

BYU looks much more like a G5 job from what its paying these days.

There are others like Navy which found success over the last 20 years and have moved up in tier. It was comparable to a MAC job in the 90's.

(06-09-2020 08:19 AM)chester Wrote:  

(06-09-2020 07:19 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  Most of those giant salary numbers are paid by booster clubs or marketing departments. Will Muschamps official state salary is only $1 million. The last I checked Swinneys was only $250 thousand

Good point. If memory serves, the max allowable salary for an Alabama public employee like Nick Saban is somewhere between 200 & 300 grand, far far below what he actually makes.

The important thing to remember from the perspective of most NCAA people, I guess, is that boosters be allowed to buy wins and championships without putting money into the pockets of players -- the majority of whom, in FBS football at least, live below the federal poverty line. That would be outrageous.

Exactly. If you start capping what schools can officially pay then you'll just see more creativity.

(06-10-2020 07:22 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(06-09-2020 08:19 AM)chester Wrote:  

(06-09-2020 07:19 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  Most of those giant salary numbers are paid by booster clubs or marketing departments. Will Muschamps official state salary is only $1 million. The last I checked Swinneys was only $250 thousand

Good point. If memory serves, the max allowable salary for an Alabama public employee like Nick Saban is somewhere between 200 & 300 grand, far far below what he actually makes.

The important thing to remember from the perspective of most NCAA people, I guess, is that boosters be allowed to buy wins and championships without putting money into the pockets of players -- the majority of whom, in FBS football at least, live below the federal poverty line. That would be outrageous.

Exactly. If you start capping what schools can officially pay then you'll just see more creativity.

We know Syracuse has boosters so why are they not paying their FB/BB coaches 9 million a piece?

While that money may come from boosters the stewardship of that money comes from the AD and President. They decided to pay a 3rd tier rate given the reality that anymore Syracuse is a 3rd tier football program.

If there was a cap of 5 million (but you still could offer benefits, university pension) the most attractive jobs would still have some advantages because they easy to win at compared to a Syracuse but at least they wouldn't be forced into a market structure two tiers down from them due to risk the guy won't make it and they'll be left paying a buyout.

(06-10-2020 07:31 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(06-10-2020 07:22 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(06-09-2020 08:19 AM)chester Wrote:  

(06-09-2020 07:19 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  Most of those giant salary numbers are paid by booster clubs or marketing departments. Will Muschamps official state salary is only $1 million. The last I checked Swinneys was only $250 thousand

Good point. If memory serves, the max allowable salary for an Alabama public employee like Nick Saban is somewhere between 200 & 300 grand, far far below what he actually makes.

The important thing to remember from the perspective of most NCAA people, I guess, is that boosters be allowed to buy wins and championships without putting money into the pockets of players -- the majority of whom, in FBS football at least, live below the federal poverty line. That would be outrageous.

Exactly. If you start capping what schools can officially pay then you'll just see more creativity.

We know Syracuse has boosters so why are they not paying their FB/BB coaches 9 million a piece?

While that money may come from boosters the stewardship of that money comes from the AD and President. They decided to pay a 3rd tier rate given the reality that anymore Syracuse is a 3rd tier football program.

If there was a cap of 5 million (but you still could offer benefits, university pension) the most attractive jobs would still have some advantages because they easy to win at compared to a Syracuse but at least they wouldn't be forced into a market structure two tiers down from them due to risk the guy won't make it and they'll be left paying a buyout.

Remember, a generation or two ago there was much less of a gap between the pay of top coaches at the top football schools and the pay at the lower echelon of FBS - in 1995, Baylor's entire athletic budget wasn't much more than what Dabo gets paid today, in 1980 Bear Bryant was easily the highest paid coach but made 1/10 of what Saban gets now - but the gap in terms of talent and performance on the field was just as wide then as now.

Same anti-trust issue, different group.

(06-10-2020 08:36 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-10-2020 07:31 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(06-10-2020 07:22 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(06-09-2020 08:19 AM)chester Wrote:  

(06-09-2020 07:19 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  Most of those giant salary numbers are paid by booster clubs or marketing departments. Will Muschamps official state salary is only $1 million. The last I checked Swinneys was only $250 thousand

Good point. If memory serves, the max allowable salary for an Alabama public employee like Nick Saban is somewhere between 200 & 300 grand, far far below what he actually makes.

The important thing to remember from the perspective of most NCAA people, I guess, is that boosters be allowed to buy wins and championships without putting money into the pockets of players -- the majority of whom, in FBS football at least, live below the federal poverty line. That would be outrageous.

Exactly. If you start capping what schools can officially pay then you'll just see more creativity.

We know Syracuse has boosters so why are they not paying their FB/BB coaches 9 million a piece?

While that money may come from boosters the stewardship of that money comes from the AD and President. They decided to pay a 3rd tier rate given the reality that anymore Syracuse is a 3rd tier football program.

If there was a cap of 5 million (but you still could offer benefits, university pension) the most attractive jobs would still have some advantages because they easy to win at compared to a Syracuse but at least they wouldn't be forced into a market structure two tiers down from them due to risk the guy won't make it and they'll be left paying a buyout.

Remember, a generation or two ago there was much less of a gap between the pay of top coaches at the top football schools and the pay at the lower echelon of FBS - in 1995, Baylor's entire athletic budget wasn't much more than what Dabo gets paid today, in 1980 Bear Bryant was easily the highest paid coach but made 1/10 of what Saban gets now - but the gap in terms of talent and performance on the field was just as wide then as now.

Because there wasn't as much money in jumping you had coaches staying 10, 15 years regularly in one job.

Its to the point where all but the Top 20 jobs in the country are stepping stone jobs. For the MAC its logical to be a stepping stone job but when you see it in the P5 its become really bad.

As much as I talk about an expanded playoff making things more competitive unless there is a salary cap its not going to reign the stratification in much. If you gave the MAC an access bowl annually that will help them recruit against the AAC but not not make a dent in recruiting against the deep pockets of Clemson and Alabama.

That example is an exaggeration but more so does expanding the playoff to 8 teams make a real difference for a program like Syracuse when they aren't even paying 25% of what Clemson and Alabama are paying? It helps them recruit against AAC schools their main recruiting competition in the Sunshine state. But if there was a cap of 5 million, they could bring the next guy in at 3.5 million a step the program up like Baylor did under Art Briles.

(06-10-2020 07:31 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(06-10-2020 07:22 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(06-09-2020 08:19 AM)chester Wrote:  

(06-09-2020 07:19 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  Most of those giant salary numbers are paid by booster clubs or marketing departments. Will Muschamps official state salary is only $1 million. The last I checked Swinneys was only $250 thousand

Good point. If memory serves, the max allowable salary for an Alabama public employee like Nick Saban is somewhere between 200 & 300 grand, far far below what he actually makes.

The important thing to remember from the perspective of most NCAA people, I guess, is that boosters be allowed to buy wins and championships without putting money into the pockets of players -- the majority of whom, in FBS football at least, live below the federal poverty line. That would be outrageous.

Exactly. If you start capping what schools can officially pay then you'll just see more creativity.

We know Syracuse has boosters so why are they not paying their FB/BB coaches 9 million a piece?

While that money may come from boosters the stewardship of that money comes from the AD and President. They decided to pay a 3rd tier rate given the reality that anymore Syracuse is a 3rd tier football program.

If there was a cap of 5 million (but you still could offer benefits, university pension) the most attractive jobs would still have some advantages because they easy to win at compared to a Syracuse but at least they wouldn't be forced into a market structure two tiers down from them due to risk the guy won't make it and they'll be left paying a buyout.

You think that Syracuse boosters = Texas boosters?

'Rona Hallucinations

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

No I don't think Syracuse boosters equal Texas booster.

My point is salaries are determined by market rate. That Texas has deep pockets might allow them to put an offer to match the top of the market, Clemson/Alabama money doesn't mean that pay is booster driven instead of market driven.

With Clemson/Alabama above 9 million that is putting pressure on other bluebloods to entertain offers well north of 5 million just to look like they're in the game. That becomes another level in itself and the smaller P5s and G5s are trying to stay within a standard deviation of that level and so forth.

Its creating more levels in the sport because many P5 programs don't want to get on the hook owing 10 million dollar buyouts so they just dial the salaries back particularly when its a younger, less experienced FBS coach.

(06-10-2020 11:14 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(06-10-2020 08:36 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-10-2020 07:31 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(06-10-2020 07:22 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(06-09-2020 08:19 AM)chester Wrote:  Good point. If memory serves, the max allowable salary for an Alabama public employee like Nick Saban is somewhere between 200 & 300 grand, far far below what he actually makes.

The important thing to remember from the perspective of most NCAA people, I guess, is that boosters be allowed to buy wins and championships without putting money into the pockets of players -- the majority of whom, in FBS football at least, live below the federal poverty line. That would be outrageous.

Exactly. If you start capping what schools can officially pay then you'll just see more creativity.

We know Syracuse has boosters so why are they not paying their FB/BB coaches 9 million a piece?

While that money may come from boosters the stewardship of that money comes from the AD and President. They decided to pay a 3rd tier rate given the reality that anymore Syracuse is a 3rd tier football program.

If there was a cap of 5 million (but you still could offer benefits, university pension) the most attractive jobs would still have some advantages because they easy to win at compared to a Syracuse but at least they wouldn't be forced into a market structure two tiers down from them due to risk the guy won't make it and they'll be left paying a buyout.

Remember, a generation or two ago there was much less of a gap between the pay of top coaches at the top football schools and the pay at the lower echelon of FBS - in 1995, Baylor's entire athletic budget wasn't much more than what Dabo gets paid today, in 1980 Bear Bryant was easily the highest paid coach but made 1/10 of what Saban gets now - but the gap in terms of talent and performance on the field was just as wide then as now.

Because there wasn't as much money in jumping you had coaches staying 10, 15 years regularly in one job.

Its to the point where all but the Top 20 jobs in the country are stepping stone jobs. For the MAC its logical to be a stepping stone job but when you see it in the P5 its become really bad.

As much as I talk about an expanded playoff making things more competitive unless there is a salary cap its not going to reign the stratification in much. If you gave the MAC an access bowl annually that will help them recruit against the AAC but not not make a dent in recruiting against the deep pockets of Clemson and Alabama.

That example is an exaggeration but more so does expanding the playoff to 8 teams make a real difference for a program like Syracuse when they aren't even paying 25% of what Clemson and Alabama are paying? It helps them recruit against AAC schools their main recruiting competition in the Sunshine state. But if there was a cap of 5 million, they could bring the next guy in at 3.5 million a step the program up like Baylor did under Art Briles.

I think it's always been that way. Heck, if anything the last 25 years have gotten better for most of the P5 in terms of respect. When I was growing up with CFB, the notion of a "P5" would have been silly. When you look at say Ohio State's 1984 schedule, their OOC games vs Oregon State and Washington State were regarded back then as cupcake-scheduling. Nowadays, that's called "big boy scheduling vs another P5" no matter how bad Wazzoo or OSU are.

In the 1980s, the Big 8 was called the "Big 2 and Little 6" and ditto for the B1G. Teams didn't get respect just because they were in the SEC or PAC 10, most of them were regarded as cannon fodder, small-time programs for the Alabamas and USCs to feast on. Now even the lowliest is a "Power 5 Program", etc.