I entered Rice when it was segregated. While I was there, they "broke" the will. The first two black students were admitted while I was an upperclassman. I never saw either one - not in class, not on the campus, not at football games, not at the RMC. But it seems to me, in the far away view of an alumnus who is not active in U affairs, that from the first time the trustees decided to break the will, there has been an effort on the part of the U to bring in and keep black students. There may have been some individuals in the student body who did not welcome them - I can think of one, but only one.

(06-09-2020 11:18 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(06-09-2020 10:53 AM)MerseyOwl Wrote:  Most of the usual posters seem to be avoiding this thread. I will not.

The first step in solving a problem is recognizing it.

The first step in solving a problem is not assuming it exists.

During my years at Rice in the late 70s I saw and heard exactly zero instances of racial discrimination. I freely admit I didn't know every black student. Almost all of the black students I knew were from my college. Two were athletes, one football (would coach at the college level) and the other track (think he eventually wrote for a newspaper). Another guy I played flag football with went on to medical school. One was a really good photographer (became an architect) and the last but not least went on to law school I think. The last guy was hypersensitive about race and got abused by the other black members of my college at least once in my presence.

I cannot definitive say there was no racial discrimination of any kind during my years at Rice. But, if there was systematic racial discrimination I'm confident I would have been aware of it.

If you have any evidence of racial discrimination at Rice I encourage you to bring it out in the open so we can discuss and hopefully resolve the situation. Allegations of racial discrimination are serious and cannot be trivialized. Allegations of systemic racial discrimination are unsettling and should be to the entire Rice community.

If it is centered around a coach or professor they should walk.

If it is centered around a department then the head should walk.

If it is pervasive throughout the university then the president should walk.

But I have seen no evidence and you have offered no evidence to support any allegation.

To say nothing is to tacitly accept your allegation. I will not.

Systemic discrimination means different things to different people. I can't speak to the experience of black students, but I certainly did not notice any efforts by the Rice administration during my time on campus (August '14 to December '17) to bring down or diminish black people. However, others would say differently. For example during my senior year/last semester, black students advocated for and succeeded in changing the name of a "college master" to "college magister." They would say that the former title is emblematic of Rice's checkered past on race relations.

Another example of the supposed systemic racism on Rice's campus is the statue of William Marsh Rice. There is currently a social media campaign to take down the statue and replace it with a statue of Rice's first black student.

So Master was emblematic of Rice's checkered past on race relations? I thought the title was simply copied from Cambridge and/or Oxford as was the college system. Magister suits Rice as it's unique to Rice. Why not just go with Head Resident? Other than the original charter that mentioned, sorry stated, the school was for "white citizens of Texas" is Rice guilty of?

I was unaware until about five minutes ago that William Marsh Rice owned fifteen slaves. I don't think the statue celebrates this immoral, but at that time legal, activity. What one would do with the current statue? Raymond Johnson might very well deserve a statue at Rice from what I read three minutes ago. However, I'm not sure it should be as the centrepiece of the academic quad?

(I never knew Rice was segregated after the charter was changed(?).)

First let me start by saying i don't have to justify my experiences at Rice. I lived them and none of you are important enough in my life for me to lie to you about anything that I've gone through in my life. I'm not a liar and people that know me know that I'm not a liar. Now that we got that out of the way.

Some of these responses are exactly what blacks mean when we say "well it IS rice". Your elitist view that you would know if they're was discrimination going on is a perfect example. how? You aren't black. Are they going around saying you can't drink water over here, you can't eat food in here? No they weren't. I've been stopped by campos no less than 10 times a year while I was there. Most at night walking from the old far west lot by the stadium going to my dorm. Each time I'm asked what am I doing on the campus, where am I going, then I'm told "there's been reports of unknown people on campus so I need to see your id". Now mind you each and every time non black people are in front of and behind me and none were stopped or questioned, just me my now wife, or my roommate or a black teammate. After the first two times my freshman year I began refusing to show them my id and I keep walking refusing to even acknowledge them. Over never once been stopped when walking with a white teammate. So again how would you know what I see you aren't black. You only see what your allowed to see when we are with you. It's common knowledge that if youre black walking around the campus the other students would stop talking and divert their eyes away so they didn't have to speak to you. Now is this every single student? No that's to broad of a statement. But more times than not I was treated as if I didn't belong there. I grew up in a mostly white area so I'm used to it. Nothing to report, it's called life while being black. I still got great grades, met wonderful people both athletes and non athletes alike and i graduated.

Other than one coach, who is no longer there, I never experienced racism from the coaches directly. Most were good guys that were about building great men and a formidable football team. There were many times that we as black players felt that we were less valued and many of the coaches didn't "buddy up" with us. Not all some. Some even felt that white players were given more of a charge to prove themselves than the black players. Can I say this with a certain that it happened? No I can't but when you see certain his put in positions to be more successful than you are, it does enter your mind. In sir you ask will spit out of adage "the best player will play", but i can trek you for a fact that didn't always happen during my time there. Again not an indictment on the coaches I think by and large they got it right but o can maybe several instances its highly questionable.

What you aren't getting is as a white person you will not see what it is that we see because you don't see the difference in how we're treated when you AREN'T around. When we are with you we are treated one way, when it's just us we're treated different. What yall don't get is that during that time and even now we just deal with it. We aren't going to our coach to complain about it, we just rise above it and you will never know the difference. That's probably part of the problem but when your just grateful to be there and not paying for it you just shut up and deal with it. There could be worse things than the same bigoted type people we grew up with.

Finally you don't have to agree with me. You don't have to believe me. It really doesn't matter to me because I know the truth. I'm very badly to be selected to attend rice and ice said it many times over, I wouldn't change a thing. Not one thing. I met my wife there. Which had led to a 16yr marriage. I have two beautiful boys that are smart athletic and mostly great people. I have life long friends that I would have never met had I not gone there. I played at a high level and had a very good career. Lastly I got a great education that has opened doors to places i don't think i would have gone had i not went to rice. So listen when I say I'm not knocking rice, I'm saying to sit and say nothing BECAUSE you don't see it is the problem now. Maybe just maybe had bloomgren made a public statement he might get done of his black players to divulge done of the issues at hand at Rice regarding race relations. I don't know, maybe they have had a team meeting in an open forum to discuss these issues already. If they have, for this alum, I'd love for them to say that publicly so I KNOW my school is in the fight for real. They are truly addressing it and listening to their players. If you don't get that, well that's on you. If you want to continue to tell me, s black man that attended rice and KNOW EXACTLY what the race relations were like while i was there, it doesn't exist... again that is a problem.

Quite frankly it's frustrating to even have to make a post like this. To have to justify what I know as an actual alum of the school. I'm tired... yall be blessed.... I'm out... taking another hiatus as I've done in the past when this board reaches that tipping point of continued elitist talk about a subject you know little about. Good day be blessed and I pray my school is addressing this issue cause based off everything I see.... we have no clue what they're actual doing other than the find they raised 90k for(which is a great thing, i will not say they are doing nothing because that is something).







s

To those that have reached out to me privately... publicly thank you. It is appreciated and highly respected. Please everyone understand I love my school. I fight for my school but I'm not above highlighting where we need to do better. Those of you that know me from the ricefootball.net board I've always been true and fair and honest. I defend my school coaches and players when it's right and when it's wrong I say it. It's the only way to get better. Much love

Your statements about being stopped coming from the parking lot reminded me of an incident when I was a student. Zero to do with race, or your experiences, but...

I came into that far west lot about 2 am, and started walking. A campus policeman pulled up alongside and asked if I wanted a ride. I said sure, and got in. He picked up his radio and said "I have him"...

nightowl24 - thanks for sharing your experience. I walked around campus a million times late at night and I know we overlapped by a couple years at Rice. I would also walk back from the football stadium since we used the weight room for baseball and did a lot of conditioning at the stadium. I was never once stopped by campos. I also ran the outer loop on numerous occasions after dark and I wonder how that experience might have been different if I was a black man instead of a mostly-white man (my 1/4 native american doesn't count for these kinds of discussions).

The math department brought in a graduate student even before cy pres was applied to the will. They must have been comfortable with integrations since they were used to dealing with integrals.

(06-09-2020 12:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I entered Rice when it was segregated. While I was there, they "broke" the will. The first two black students were admitted while I was an upperclassman. I never saw either one - not in class, not on the campus, not at football games, not at the RMC. But it seems to me, in the far away view of an alumnus who is not active in U affairs, that from the first time the trustees decided to break the will, there has been an effort on the part of the U to bring in and keep black students. There may have been some individuals in the student body who did not welcome them - I can think of one, but only one.

Night Owl,
Thank you for starting this thread, and providing your perspectives. I think there is a lot of good conversation here, and room for plenty more.

Your notes about being confronted walking across campus could have happened anywhere in the US back then, and probably still today.

I am glad that your refusal to stop didn’t escalate, as it very well could have in some jurisdictions other than Rice.

The main point I wanted to make in this post (besides that I hear you and believe that I understand what you are saying) is that:

1. The first time you were stopped sounds racist. Racial profiling has been justified in some circles but it is still racist.
2. The tenth time? That’s an order of magnitude worse. Rice has never had that many students and never had that many officers. When I was there, we all knew a lot of the patrol officers and they knew a lot of us. What that tells me, is that if those officers were looking at you as a human and as a student, they would have remembered you the next time, or certainly the time or two after that.

I have more random thoughts on racism and elitism... and Rice. let’s keep the thread and discussion going

(06-11-2020 07:21 PM)owl at the moon Wrote:  I have more random thoughts on racism and elitism... and Rice. let’s keep the thread and discussion going

Be careful what you wish for....

(06-06-2020 02:20 AM)nightowl24 Wrote:  Has Bloomgren made any statements regarding the current state of things? I've only looked on here and Twitter. I haven't seen anything. He's retweeted other people's stuff but he hasn't produced anything. Going to be dead honest that really does speak volumes to me as a black man and father of two athletes. If he has then that's great but if he hasn't why hasn't anyone from the rice community said anything?

I don't know about Bloomgren, but I did receive an e-mail about the issue from the alumni mailing list from my department at Rice. It was fairly dreadful, with invocations of "systemic racism" and other such virtue signaling, which is problematic because...

(06-09-2020 11:18 AM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  Systemic discrimination means different things to different people.

… "systemic discrimination" admits only one meaning, and by that meaning, there's no evidence that it presently exists. Our laws don't permit institutionalized discrimination, so by definition it can't be systemic. The issue lies not with society but within the human soul, in the failure to recognize that each human being, by the very nature of his or her existence, possesses an inherent dignity. That dignity exists in all regardless of incidentals such as race, sex, ethnicity, age, wealth and status. It mandates respect from all towards all. Our laws reflect this understanding. However, laws are only aspirational; they can try to govern our society, but they can't govern the human heart, and it is from the human heart that our behavior towards others flows. The conversion that is needed isn't society's but rather our own. As St. Paul put it in his epistle to the Romans,

Quote:I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.

Why do we do what we hate and not what we want?

(06-11-2020 07:21 PM)owl at the moon Wrote:  Night Owl,
Thank you for starting this thread, and providing your perspectives. I think there is a lot of good conversation here, and room for plenty more.

Your notes about being confronted walking across campus could have happened anywhere in the US back then, and probably still today.

I am glad that your refusal to stop didn’t escalate, as it very well could have in some jurisdictions other than Rice.

The main point I wanted to make in this post (besides that I hear you and believe that I understand what you are saying) is that:

1. The first time you were stopped sounds racist. Racial profiling has been justified in some circles but it is still racist.
2. The tenth time? That’s an order of magnitude worse. Rice has never had that many students and never had that many officers. When I was there, we all knew a lot of the patrol officers and they knew a lot of us. What that tells me, is that if those officers were looking at you as a human and as a student, they would have remembered you the next time, or certainly the time or two after that.

I have more random thoughts on racism and elitism... and Rice. let’s keep the thread and discussion going

Let's not.

I believe that the need (or not) to make a public statement depends on your position. As someone in the media spotlight, as a leader of young men, many of them minorities... I do understand why it is important for Bloom (and others) to make statements.

I will say though that the 'if you're not being public, you're part of the problem' sort of comments somewhat troubles me. Not because I disagree with it in its purpose, but because I disagree with it in its significance. There are SO many more important things for white people to do in response to this issue than a facebook post. I know for a fact many who have made moving declarations on Facebook, but continued to live their lives in the same way before as after. Said simply, if I posted a moving speech on here, but still find people with darker skin to be inherently 'suspicious looking', what have I accomplished? I think this belief is one of the ways that (white) people try and avoid being blamed for the issues, and more importantly... for being blamed for failing to solve them. Its the 'I have friends who are black' of the Social Media age.

I'd especially look at politicians... especially more local ones... The people quite literally empowered to effect the very changes we need who have for decades 'said the right things', and done almost nothing. No, that doesn't speak for all of them nor even perhaps most... and this criticism isn't directed even primarily at African Americans... because 13% can't pass ANY bill. I'm primarily speaking about white politicians who have pandered to the minority voters. That's where 'everyone must make a public statement' puts us, because MOST people think that is enough, or that it is in some ways, more important than 'doing something'.

Political power is not about getting everyone to agree about things. All that does is put these things into the shadows and that is where we have been for decades. They don't go away... It's also a lie when people tell you that they can't accomplish these goals 'because of someone else'. These are excuses for inaction.

Politicians at all levels from both parties have and do every day, pass legislation that is NOT just 'lower on the priority list' than the other party, but actually on their 'do not allow to pass' list. It happens when politicians REALLY want to accomplish things, and doesn't when they don't. The idea that 'we can't solve this because of this person or party' only demonstrates that the priority is on replacing that person or party, and NOT on solving the problem.

I'm a social liberal, fiscal conservative. I grew up on military bases playing sports. I grew up being taught that your 'team-mate' may quite literally save your life, or you theirs. Race didn't matter, character did... responsibility and reliability mattered. This doesn't remotely make me immune to racism... I'm quite certain I have failed hundreds of times in my life in ways I didn't even notice... but it DOES mean that despite leaning right politically, that I have absolutely NO reason or purpose or goal to support it.... and am happy to help work against it. I'm not remotely unique in this position.... meaning that if we assume that 'democrats' all want it, there is an overwhelming majority of the population with absolutely no opposition to solving this problem, and mostly with significant support for solving it. We fought wars and passed Constitutional legislation (meaning overwhelming support) intended to end these problems over the ARMED (and often supported by law) objections of racists. To think that we can't muster the simple majority votes to solve these issues because of them is insulting to our collective intelligence. The barriers as I see them are honest differences of opinions on where to start/what specifically to do... though I think we could come up with a nice starter list of areas where we agree... and of course, those who really don't want to solve the problems... which ISN'T just the 'racists'. As I've said many times before in other contexts, the power for some is in the argument, not the solutions.

I think we all want 'better' for our children... and this is what I tell them:

Be careful what people say. Watch what they do. Words are nice, but words without actions are lies. I also speak to them about being a leader. Not all leaders are vocal... and sometimes the people talking the most are the ones 'doing' the least.

(06-12-2020 10:25 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Not all leaders are vocal... and sometimes the people talking the most are the ones 'doing' the least.

Or doing things that are counterproductive.