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What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
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jedclampett Offline
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What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
Let's consider these two examples:

The Southwest Conference (in 1996):

1. Texas
2. Texas A&M
3. Texas Tech
4. TCU
5. Rice
6. Baylor
7. SMU
8. Houston

The Big East Football Conference (in 2011):

1. Syracuse
2. Pitt
3. West Virginia
4. Rutgers
5. UConn
6. Louisville
7. Cincy
8. USF

Both of these conferences "imploded" or went out of existence (although, strictly speaking, the Big East morphed into the AAC).

Q. What did they have in common?

A. Both conferences had only 8 full members.


.

Hypothesis:

The single factor that may be most predictive of the imminent collapse of a conference may be having only 8 full members.

.

Corollary hypothesis:

The fewer schools there are in a conference, the greater the likelihood that the conference will eventually collapse.
06-04-2020 07:14 PM
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jedclampett Offline
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
Q: Which FBS conferences are most widely considered to be at greatest risk for imploding?

A: The Big 12 (10 schools) and the AAC (11 schools; 10 full members).

Q: Which FBS conferences are widely considered to be at low risk?

A: The SEC (14), the B1G (14), the ACC (14+ND), the PAC-12 (12), and the MAC (12)
(This post was last modified: 06-04-2020 07:41 PM by jedclampett.)
06-04-2020 07:21 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
Jed, I think it’s a little more complex than that. I think the true test of stability is whether or not it’s constituent members are similar institutions with similar goals.

The SWC was a mix of public and private schools that were very different in their size of student body, academic reputation, and support for athletics.

The Big East was similarly plagued with a public/private, football/non-football lines.
06-04-2020 07:23 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Online
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
DavidSt predicts it.
06-04-2020 07:26 PM
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jedclampett Offline
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
(06-04-2020 07:23 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Jed, I think it’s a little more complex than that. I think the true test of stability is whether or not it’s constituent members are similar institutions with similar goals.

The SWC was a mix of public and private schools that were very different in their size of student body, academic reputation, and support for athletics.

The Big East was similarly plagued with a public/private, football/non-football lines.

No doubt, you're right - - and that's why this could be an interesting topic to discuss.

I would also acknowledge that simply having only 8 schools needn't doom a conference, given the seemingly high likelihood that the Ivy League will still be in existence 100 years from now.
06-04-2020 07:28 PM
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Soobahk40050 Offline
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
(06-04-2020 07:14 PM)jedclampett Wrote:  Let's consider these two examples:

The Southwest Conference (in 1996):

1. Texas
2. Texas A&M
3. Texas Tech
4. TCU
5. Rice
6. Baylor
7. SMU
8. Houston

The Big East Football Conference (in 2011):

1. Syracuse
2. Pitt
3. West Virginia
4. Rutgers
5. UConn
6. Louisville
7. Cincy
8. USF

Both of these conferences "imploded" or went out of existence (although, strictly speaking, the Big East morphed into the AAC).

Q. What did they have in common?

A. Both conferences had only 8 full members.


.

Hypothesis:

The single factor that may be most predictive of the imminent collapse of a conference may be having only 8 full members.

.

Corollary hypothesis:

The fewer schools there are in a conference, the greater the likelihood that the conference will eventually collapse.

SWC also had very limited market: Texas. They needed more states, more viewers, in a changing TV environment.

Big East: by 2011 they had already been raised (BC, VT, Miami). Cincy, Louisville, and USF were conference USA teams. History had not been formed yet.
06-04-2020 07:38 PM
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Erictelevision Online
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
Soo: you mean "razed". And the Ivy League will STILL exist when the sun expands to engulf the Earth.
06-04-2020 07:51 PM
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jedclampett Offline
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
(06-04-2020 07:51 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Soo: you mean "razed". And the Ivy League will STILL exist when the sun expands to engulf the Earth.

Aye, and why is that the case?

My guess would be that the Ivy League will be here a century from now, not because of the athletic conference, but because of their close academic ties and institutional associations.

The same kinds of ties - which continue - help to explain the strong bond between the original Big Ten schools.
06-04-2020 09:27 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
(06-04-2020 07:23 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Jed, I think it’s a little more complex than that. I think the true test of stability is whether or not it’s constituent members are similar institutions with similar goals.

The SWC was a mix of public and private schools that were very different in their size of student body, academic reputation, and support for athletics.

The Big East was similarly plagued with a public/private, football/non-football lines.


Perfectly said. Agree.
06-04-2020 09:29 PM
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Foreverandever Online
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
The WAC also imploded as an FBS conference, one with history.
06-04-2020 09:38 PM
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goofus Offline
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
Interesting that the Big 8 also had 8 schools before it ballooned to 12.

The PAC-12 was once the PAC-8.

The ACC only had 8 teams before FSU joined. Now it has 14.

The WAC grew to 16 before it fell apart.

Number of teams is not a good predictor of conferences falling apart.
06-04-2020 09:48 PM
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jedclampett Offline
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
(06-04-2020 09:48 PM)goofus Wrote:  Interesting that the Big 8 also had 8 schools before it ballooned to 12.

The PAC-12 was once the PAC-8.

The ACC only had 8 teams before FSU joined. Now it has 14.

The WAC grew to 16 before it fell apart.

Number of teams is not a good predictor of conferences falling apart.

That is true, in general, but that is a different question.

I'll put it differently to make the point clearer:

Major conferences with 12 or more full members have rarely, if ever, gone out of existence.

The only example that comes close is the old Southern Conference, which lost half of its members. However, unlike the implosion of the 8 team SWC, the remaining major schools in the Southern Conference stuck together as a conference, which evolved into the Atlantic Coast Conference.
(This post was last modified: 06-04-2020 10:27 PM by jedclampett.)
06-04-2020 10:04 PM
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puck swami Offline
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
Seems to me it often comes down to differing levels of athletic ambition that exist in every conference. In every conference, there are always the bigger spenders (relative to other schools in the same confererece) who push the needle on salaries, facilities and exposure. Then there are those who prefer not to spend (or can't spend) at the same levels as the top conference schools, but who still want the coattail benefits of being competitive without going broke.

If you get too many of the foot-draggers, the ambitious ones get restless and bolt...
(This post was last modified: 06-04-2020 10:12 PM by puck swami.)
06-04-2020 10:12 PM
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jedclampett Offline
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conf?
Here's another example of a conference with relatively few members that partially "imploded" in 2003, and then lost all but two original members a few years later:

Original Conference USA full members (as of 2002-03):

1. Cincy (departed in 2005)
2. Louisville (departed in 2005)
3. Southern Miss. (one of the two remaining original members)
4. UAB (one of the two remaining original members)
5. Memphis (departed in 2013)
6. Tulane (departed in 2013)
7. Houston (departed in 2013)
8. ECU (departed in 2013)
9. TCU (departed in 2013)

NOTE: USF (became a full member in 2003, but departed in 2005)
06-04-2020 10:21 PM
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lion1983 Offline
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
I think the 8 number is just a coincidence.

You can go back and look a the SWC and clearly see what happened with them.

The Big 12 has been on the brink of "implosion" since Colorado, Nebraska, Texas A&M and Missouri left. But it hasn't happened yet.

I think it has more to do with the schools involved and leadership (or lack thereof) of the conference.

On the school side, you have to be with other schools that (A) help each other as far as fan interest
(B) have similar expectations and goals.

On the leadership side it needs
(A) a commissioner that has vision, insight of all the schools and their goals, and forethought about all aspects of the conference (where and how to have tournaments, not letting one school be more important than the rest (Texas) and understanding the market they are in.
(B) Willing to change or make extremely hard decisions for the better of the conference.
06-04-2020 10:47 PM
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
If look at the Big East,

I say they imploded way before that, it was never really the Big East without Miami, VT, West Virginia, and Boston College. At least to me.

And it could have been a whole lot better with Penn State.

My point, I guess if I have one.
Conferences like the SEC, ACC, Big 10 and to a lesser extent PAC 10 took advantage of conferences with some leadership and cultural issues.
06-04-2020 10:56 PM
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
(06-04-2020 07:14 PM)jedclampett Wrote:  Let's consider these two examples:

The Southwest Conference (in 1996):

1. Texas
2. Texas A&M
3. Texas Tech
4. TCU
5. Rice
6. Baylor
7. SMU
8. Houston

The Big East Football Conference (in 2011):

1. Syracuse
2. Pitt
3. West Virginia
4. Rutgers
5. UConn
6. Louisville
7. Cincy
8. USF

Both of these conferences "imploded" or went out of existence (although, strictly speaking, the Big East morphed into the AAC).

Q. What did they have in common?

A. Both conferences had only 8 full members.


.

Hypothesis:

The single factor that may be most predictive of the imminent collapse of a conference may be having only 8 full members.

.

Corollary hypothesis:

The fewer schools there are in a conference, the greater the likelihood that the conference will eventually collapse.

Good questions but wrong assumptions.

Both the SWC and Big East eventually succumbed to having too small of a market reach and in the era of the footprint model for figuring the media compensation for schools in a conference the real issue with the SWC was not the number of schools, but the number of states those schools occupied, two, Arkansas and Texas. The Big East at least had more states, but both also had another factor working against them. S.M.U. received the death penalty in the SWC hampering further the number of games they had to sell which is related to to the number of schools in the conference.

The Big East was basically a basketball conference that worked with some schools which also offered football. When football value became the driver of realignment both the ACC and Big East suffered the same weaknesses as predominantly basketball conferences. The ACC won out because they added F.S.U. and had more exposure in the football crazy Southeast which had ample recruiting prospects to assist their development. The Big East had Miami. The ACC saw the risk and struck first. That killed the Big East.

The problem you face now is that weakness in 2020 is no longer defined by the number of schools, or even the size of your market footprint. We've entered a new era thanks to smart TV's and streaming. Now the cable companies know exactly how many people watched an event. They no longer pay a fee for each cable subscription within a footprint state. Now they get extra add revenue because they know how many truly watched. TV audience is tied to brand strength which is tied to a history of winning at "football" and that value is multiplied when brands play brands.

The Big 10 has at least 6 brands that can draw nationally: Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State, Michigan State, Wisconsin, and Nebraska. Sometimes Iowa makes a run. These are also attendance leaders.

The SEC has 7 brands: Alabama, L.S.U., Georgia, Auburn, Texas A&M, Florida, and Tennessee. Those are also the attendance leaders. The big difference for the SEC over the Big 10 is that it has a couple of other schools capable of making a good run a couple of times a decade. The Big 10's bottom is broader.

These are the top two earners now and have way outpaced the other 3 P conferences because of the number of brands they have each and because those brands play each other creating must see national TV for college football fans.

The PAC has old brands that haven't won in big ways very often in the last 20 years: USC, UCLA, Washington, Stanford, and new comer Oregon. They have lousy viewer numbers so they are paid what is very soon to be the least amount of money.

Nipping at their heels is the ACC which essentially has two consistent football brands that win at national competition levels: F.S.U. and Clemson and lately F.S.U. has been struggling. They have the second poorest viewer numbers when the total actual viewers are compared to the total possible viewers in their footprint. So with the fewest national football brands and the second worst viewer to potential viewer ratio they are paid the second worst.

The Big 12 also only has 2 major national brands, but they are massive brands and annually ranked 1st and 7th in total revenue generated. They hang together because the third tier rights for all schools are independently held. This allows Texas and Oklahoma to make 37 million for the T1 and T2 rights and Texas approaching 17 million for the LHN while OU picks up around 7 million more for their T3. Because of their brand power they earn significantly more than either the PAC 12 at 29.7 million or the ACC which this year may earn 29.7 from their T1 and T2 and could make 3 to 5 million more for the ACCN which will reflect roughly 7 months worth of revenue.

The problem moving forward is that the Big 10 making nearly 54 million this past year will get a new contract bump in 2024. That contract with a mere 10% bump jumps past 60 million. Likely it will be closer to 15% more so think 63 to 65 range. The least the SEC will make by 2024 where their new contract kicks in will be 67 million and without all the details in it could be more and if ABC is successful in buying out the remaining CBS contract after this year that raise could come much sooner.

So which conferences are weakest now? The PAC which will be doubled up by both the Big 10 and SEC and the ACC which will almost be doubled up by both.

We are talking a difference for the ACC of 30 million a year for the next 13 years after 2024 and until 2037. That's a loss over 13 years of 390 million dollars if they stay put. Football first schools like Clemson, Florida State, Georgia Tech and Louisville which is a two sport school will all have in state SEC rivals making twice as much as they make. That will be an intolerable disadvantage for those schools. It also puts Syracuse and Pittsburgh at a similar disadvantage with Big 10 schools in their recruiting areas.

Meanwhile the two most sought after prizes in realignment would rather stay where they are and since they are making more than either the PAC 12 or ACC they'll probably be able to do so.

Since the PAC is virtually isolated and travel expenses will be a bigger consideration in the future because of recent events I think they are less likely to be raided than many think but if they suffer defections there is only one destination for them, the Big 12 which makes Texas and Oklahoma's position even stronger. I just really really don't see any of them parting company. They like each other. What they are growing not to like is Larry Scott. So Larry Scott probably doesn't survive the rancor that is growing within the PAC, but the PAC does survive.

I know the ACC has a big long GOR, but really if a school could make 390 million more over the next 13 years following 2024 that's gong to put a lot of stress on that conference which is 2nd to the Big 10 in the Northeast in ratings and 2nd to the SEC in ratings in the Southeast and has the fewest brands with which to make money in football. If three or four schools can jump for that much more it's going to create big issues. Even movement to the Big 12 with the possibility of jumping closer to the 50 million range with the right mix of traveling companions will spur interest. So unless there is a huge windfall from the ACCN which doesn't seem likely at all since both the BTN and SECN are suffering declines of what were once record high earnings.

So Jed what makes a conference weak has changed but the causation of that weakness is still having unfavorable conditions to media payouts. From 1990 to 2010 it was cable subscription fees within the footprint. Small footprint = limited subscriptions (especially since duplicate schools from 1 state don't count or help) and in 2020 it's national brand schools playing other national brand schools which drive actual viewership for which advertisers pay a premium. This difference is so huge for the SEC and Big 10 that media payouts in say 1998 were all within 2 million of each other based on cable subscription fees, but now there's as much as 30 million dollars difference and the ability of those behind to make up the difference is practically nil.

Monetary difference will be the driving force of further realignment and the ACC is in the next to the weakest position in % of actual viewers to possible viewers, nest to last in attendance, next to last in media revenue, and locked into this contract until 2037. The PAC is last in all but only locked in until 2024.

Who is in the weakest position is really not even up for debate, it's the ACC bordered by both of the dominant conferences and without the brand power of a Texas and Oklahoma. Ironically what could be their saving grace is the fact that neither the Big 10 nor SEC have much to gain from them.
(This post was last modified: 06-04-2020 11:22 PM by JRsec.)
06-04-2020 11:20 PM
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
It boils down to money.

Half of SWC could make significantly more elsewhere. It was reported that ABC had noted that despite 8 schools in Texas, games involving OU drew better ratings in DFW than SWC games not involving UT or TAMU. It was the era where ABC was what mattered ESPN wasn’t paying big bucks yet and deuce had just launched. Arkansas had already bailed for bucks and an affiliation the eastern half of the state preferred.

Big East drain started with two schools who not only wanted the bucks they wanted to lock in an in-state school as conference competition.
06-05-2020 02:13 AM
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
(06-04-2020 09:38 PM)Foreverandever Wrote:  The WAC also imploded as an FBS conference, one with history.

Well, that may work in reality, but does it work in theory? After all, they had 16 members at their peak. By the theory, they should have been as safe as houses.

And the Big 8 should also have imploded in theory, when in reality they were not raided until after they had grown to 12.

Indeed, while the Big East had eight FB members, they also had 16 members overall.

The more complete theory might be having 16 members or being restricted to a single state.
(This post was last modified: 06-05-2020 04:50 AM by BruceMcF.)
06-05-2020 04:47 AM
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RE: What is the most common factor that predicts demise of a college sports conference?
(06-05-2020 04:47 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(06-04-2020 09:38 PM)Foreverandever Wrote:  The WAC also imploded as an FBS conference, one with history.

Well, that may work in reality, but does it work in theory? After all, they had 16 members at their peak. By the theory, they should have been as safe as houses.

And the Big 8 should also have imploded in theory, when in reality they were not raided until after they had grown to 12.

Indeed, while the Big East had eight FB members, they also had 16 members overall.

The more complete theory might be having 16 members or being restricted to a single state.

But the league did not history together. From the moment the airport 8 left to form the MW, the WAC was vulnerable. Sure, they benefited from the Big West dropping football, but most of the WAC brand names left to form the ME and the eastern schools jumped back east at the earliest opportunity.
06-05-2020 07:45 AM
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