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Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
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esayem Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
(05-28-2020 01:17 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 12:42 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 12:17 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  The two leagues have a similar number of bottom feeders. The BE was no worse at the bottom than the ACC. It doesnt matter if you think USF and Rutgers are worst than any ACC program, ever. They make up 2 out of the 4 BE dregs that you mentioned. It just so happens that the ACC also had 4 dregs that year. Every league has their cellar dwellers. I will admit that USF and particularly, Rutgers and Depaul, were reaaly bad. Its unfair to point out another leagues dregs and ignore your own leagues dregs.

Except the "dregs" of the ACC have actually succeeded in the sport and did so during the time period (2004-2012) we are talking about.

ACC

Wake made three tournaments with four winning seasons. After the last bid they fired Gaudio for some stupid reason and didn't make a Dance for years.

GaTech also made three tournaments with four winning seasons.

NC State made four tournaments and had seven winning seasons.

Virginia only made two tournaments, but had five winning seasons and the next season they exploded with 30 wins and haven't looked back.

Clemson had seven winning seasons and four tournaments.

Big East

Rutgers had one winning season and no tournaments.

DePaul had one winning season and no tournaments.

So. Flahridah actually had two winning seasons and a nice tourney run that was ended by Ohio.

Providence–a historically strong program–had three winning seasons and no tournament appearances.

Seton Hall had five winning seasons and one tournament.

St. John's–also historically strong–had four winning seasons and one tournament appearance.

Oh, so now you want to move the goal posts? Sorry, but Im going to concentrate on that particular season 2010-2011. Thats the season that you have referenced so many times before as your example of BE teams beating up on so many of the "embarrassingly atrocious " teams at the bottom. It turns out that ACC teams were beating up on the same amount of bad teams that season. Im done!

What goalposts? We're talking about all the seasons where the BE16 was supposedly the clear cut best conference in the land. One season proves nothing.
05-28-2020 02:35 PM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
(05-28-2020 01:57 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 01:46 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  13b) Georgia Tech 5


How to trash your men's basketball program in one contract: The Dave Braine and Paul Hewitt Story, an ESPN 8 for 8 on The Ocho.

No one trashed their program worse than Pitt with pushing out Jamie Dixon and hiring Kevin Stallings.
05-28-2020 04:35 PM
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ChrisLords Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
(05-28-2020 04:35 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 01:57 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 01:46 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  13b) Georgia Tech 5


How to trash your men's basketball program in one contract: The Dave Braine and Paul Hewitt Story, an ESPN 8 for 8 on The Ocho.

No one trashed their program worse than Pitt with pushing out Jamie Dixon and hiring Kevin Stallings.

Yeah but Pitt fired him in 2 years as I recall Hewitt had the never ending, self-renewing every year, contract extension. So no matter when he was fired GT would be paying him for many years to come.
(This post was last modified: 05-28-2020 04:40 PM by ChrisLords.)
05-28-2020 04:39 PM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
(05-28-2020 04:39 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 04:35 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 01:57 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 01:46 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  13b) Georgia Tech 5


How to trash your men's basketball program in one contract: The Dave Braine and Paul Hewitt Story, an ESPN 8 for 8 on The Ocho.

No one trashed their program worse than Pitt with pushing out Jamie Dixon and hiring Kevin Stallings.

Yeah but Pitt fired him in 2 years as I recall Hewitt had the never ending, self-renewing every year, contract extension. So no matter when he was fired GT would be paying him for many years to come.


The Hewitt contract was an all-time financial mismanagement fiasco...but it’s Georgia Tech’s money to waste. Random luck would have resulted in some good coach by now...the string of questionable coaches at GT needs to end.
.
05-28-2020 05:32 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
(05-28-2020 05:32 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 04:39 PM)ChrisLords Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 04:35 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 01:57 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 01:46 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  13b) Georgia Tech 5


How to trash your men's basketball program in one contract: The Dave Braine and Paul Hewitt Story, an ESPN 8 for 8 on The Ocho.

No one trashed their program worse than Pitt with pushing out Jamie Dixon and hiring Kevin Stallings.

Yeah but Pitt fired him in 2 years as I recall Hewitt had the never ending, self-renewing every year, contract extension. So no matter when he was fired GT would be paying him for many years to come.


The Hewitt contract was an all-time financial mismanagement fiasco...but it’s Georgia Tech’s money to waste. Random luck would have resulted in some good coach by now...the string of questionable coaches at GT needs to end.
.

But you see it isn't random luck. Let's take a look at who the hires have been and who has made them.

Paul Hewitt -> Dave Braine (who came from VT where his great accomplishment was stubbornly insisting on Beamer) decides he wants to permanently stick with Paul Hewitt. They both go down with the ship.

Brian Gregory -> Dan Radakovich (who came from LSU and runs the ship like the SEC ... spend spend spend, bungle NCAA investigations, what do you mean there's sports other than football?) .... Call it what it was: cheap. Radakovich was more interested in spending on facilities than throwing $10m into the void to mop up Hewitt's contract.

Josh Pastner -> Mike Bobinski (who came from Xavier where football isn't a thing ... he ran the department like Sasquatch (frequently photographed, never seen alive in person) ... he was mocked within the GTAA and led to some of the best talent in the GTAA going elsewhere ... he was and still is an unmitigated disaster who is now polluting Purdue. The laughable hire matches the laughable AD. The hire did get out the pitchforks and send Bobinski for the hills though. Josh's remaining life span is measured in months, and he is the last of the pre-Todd Stansbury non-Homer Rice hires in major sports.

The parade of idiots on the court matches the parade of idiots off of it. I do not anticipate that being a problem again next time.
05-28-2020 06:40 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
Hewitt took the Wreck to the Final 4 on the narrow shoulders of a giant Australian. That’s why he was around forever.
05-28-2020 10:00 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
(05-28-2020 10:00 PM)esayem Wrote:  Hewitt took the Wreck to the Final 4 on the narrow shoulders of a giant Australian. That’s why he was around forever.

Go back and check that roster. That team went 10 deep with future NBA players. They had three legitimate ACC caliber point guards led by a future NBA point guard. While there was only one superstar in Jarrett Jack they had the kind of insanely deep bench that FSU has these days only they were even better on average. Hewitt could recruit with the best of them. Trouble is few of his recruits stayed and he couldn't coach them to play as a teach worth a squat while they were there. A big part of Hewitt's sales pitch for elite talent is LOTS of one on one instruction. Hewitt coached 5 players to play more than he coached a team of 5 players. That team won deep into the tournament despite its shortcomings in coaching and despite a terrible tournament draw (essentially road games near the lower seed for 3 of the first 4 games culminating in playing Kansas in St. Louis. That team overcame those odds through sheer talent level and volume of talent.

See also: Auburn Football 2010 (Newton, Cam) ... so much overwhelming talent it won a Natty for Gene Chizik who is no great shakes as a coach.
(This post was last modified: 05-29-2020 12:44 PM by georgia_tech_swagger.)
05-28-2020 10:38 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
(05-28-2020 10:38 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 10:00 PM)esayem Wrote:  Hewitt took the Wreck to the Final 4 on the narrow shoulders of a giant Australian. That’s why he was around forever.

Go back and check that roster. That team with 10 deep with future NBA players. They had three legitimate ACC caliber point guards led by a future NBA point guard. While there was only one superstar in Jarrett Jack they had the kind of insanely deep bench that FSU has these days only they were even better on average. Hewitt could recruit with the best of them. Trouble is few of his recruits stayed and he couldn't coach them to play as a team worth a squat while they were there. A big part of Hewitt's sales pitch for elite talent is LOTS of one on one instruction. Hewitt coached 5 players to play more than he coached a team of 5 players. That team won deep into the tournament despite its shortcomings in coaching and despite a terrible tournament draw (essentially road games near the lower seed for 3 of the first 4 games culminating in playing Kansas in St. Louis.) That team overcame those odds through sheer talent level and volume of talent.

See also: Auburn Football 2010 (Newton, Cam) ... so much overwhelming talent it won a Natty for Gene Chizik who is no great shakes as a coach.

No doubt they were talented, that was a great group. Imagine if Bosh played another season.
(This post was last modified: 05-29-2020 12:45 PM by georgia_tech_swagger.)
05-29-2020 05:31 AM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
(05-28-2020 02:35 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 01:17 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 12:42 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 12:17 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  The two leagues have a similar number of bottom feeders. The BE was no worse at the bottom than the ACC. It doesnt matter if you think USF and Rutgers are worst than any ACC program, ever. They make up 2 out of the 4 BE dregs that you mentioned. It just so happens that the ACC also had 4 dregs that year. Every league has their cellar dwellers. I will admit that USF and particularly, Rutgers and Depaul, were reaaly bad. Its unfair to point out another leagues dregs and ignore your own leagues dregs.

Except the "dregs" of the ACC have actually succeeded in the sport and did so during the time period (2004-2012) we are talking about.

ACC

Wake made three tournaments with four winning seasons. After the last bid they fired Gaudio for some stupid reason and didn't make a Dance for years.

GaTech also made three tournaments with four winning seasons.

NC State made four tournaments and had seven winning seasons.

Virginia only made two tournaments, but had five winning seasons and the next season they exploded with 30 wins and haven't looked back.

Clemson had seven winning seasons and four tournaments.

Big East

Rutgers had one winning season and no tournaments.

DePaul had one winning season and no tournaments.

So. Flahridah actually had two winning seasons and a nice tourney run that was ended by Ohio.

Providence–a historically strong program–had three winning seasons and no tournament appearances.

Seton Hall had five winning seasons and one tournament.

St. John's–also historically strong–had four winning seasons and one tournament appearance.

Oh, so now you want to move the goal posts? Sorry, but Im going to concentrate on that particular season 2010-2011. Thats the season that you have referenced so many times before as your example of BE teams beating up on so many of the "embarrassingly atrocious " teams at the bottom. It turns out that ACC teams were beating up on the same amount of bad teams that season. Im done!

What goalposts? We're talking about all the seasons where the BE16 was supposedly the clear cut best conference in the land. One season proves nothing.

8 seasons, 2005-06 through 2012-13, the Big East accumulated 155 tournament shares in the NCAA Tournament with 16 members (15 in 2012-13). That's 9.7 shares per member, or 1.2 shares per member per year.

The ACC accumulated 94 tournament shares during the same period with 12 members. That's 7.8 shares per member, or .98 shares per member per year.

For comparison, during the 6 season period from 2013-14 through 2018-19, the ACC accumulated 117 tournament shares with 12 members. That's 7.8 shares per member (over the shorter 6 season period), or 1.3 shares per member per year.
(This post was last modified: 05-29-2020 08:50 AM by orangefan.)
05-29-2020 08:49 AM
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Post: #30
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
(05-29-2020 08:49 AM)orangefan Wrote:  8 seasons, 2005-06 through 2012-13, the Big East accumulated 155 tournament shares in the NCAA Tournament with 16 members (15 in 2012-13). That's 9.7 shares per member, or 1.2 shares per member per year.

The ACC accumulated 94 tournament shares during the same period with 12 members. That's 7.8 shares per member, or .98 shares per member per year.

For comparison, during the 6 season period from 2013-14 through 2018-19, the ACC accumulated 117 tournament shares with 12 members. That's 7.8 shares per member (over the shorter 6 season period), or 1.3 shares per member per year.

Keep in mind that you get 1 share just for being invited, so NCAA units are not always a good way to measure QUALITY. I tend to favor NCAAT W-L records - but even that is distorted by seeding.
05-29-2020 09:07 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
(05-29-2020 08:49 AM)orangefan Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 02:35 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 01:17 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 12:42 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(05-28-2020 12:17 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  The two leagues have a similar number of bottom feeders. The BE was no worse at the bottom than the ACC. It doesnt matter if you think USF and Rutgers are worst than any ACC program, ever. They make up 2 out of the 4 BE dregs that you mentioned. It just so happens that the ACC also had 4 dregs that year. Every league has their cellar dwellers. I will admit that USF and particularly, Rutgers and Depaul, were reaaly bad. Its unfair to point out another leagues dregs and ignore your own leagues dregs.

Except the "dregs" of the ACC have actually succeeded in the sport and did so during the time period (2004-2012) we are talking about.

ACC

Wake made three tournaments with four winning seasons. After the last bid they fired Gaudio for some stupid reason and didn't make a Dance for years.

GaTech also made three tournaments with four winning seasons.

NC State made four tournaments and had seven winning seasons.

Virginia only made two tournaments, but had five winning seasons and the next season they exploded with 30 wins and haven't looked back.

Clemson had seven winning seasons and four tournaments.

Big East

Rutgers had one winning season and no tournaments.

DePaul had one winning season and no tournaments.

So. Flahridah actually had two winning seasons and a nice tourney run that was ended by Ohio.

Providence–a historically strong program–had three winning seasons and no tournament appearances.

Seton Hall had five winning seasons and one tournament.

St. John's–also historically strong–had four winning seasons and one tournament appearance.

Oh, so now you want to move the goal posts? Sorry, but Im going to concentrate on that particular season 2010-2011. Thats the season that you have referenced so many times before as your example of BE teams beating up on so many of the "embarrassingly atrocious " teams at the bottom. It turns out that ACC teams were beating up on the same amount of bad teams that season. Im done!

What goalposts? We're talking about all the seasons where the BE16 was supposedly the clear cut best conference in the land. One season proves nothing.

8 seasons, 2005-06 through 2012-13, the Big East accumulated 155 tournament shares in the NCAA Tournament with 16 members (15 in 2012-13). That's 9.7 shares per member, or 1.2 shares per member per year.

The ACC accumulated 94 tournament shares during the same period with 12 members. That's 7.8 shares per member, or .98 shares per member per year.

For comparison, during the 6 season period from 2013-14 through 2018-19, the ACC accumulated 117 tournament shares with 12 members. That's 7.8 shares per member (over the shorter 6 season period), or 1.3 shares per member per year.

No doubt, can't argue there, but that's one metric that doesn't scratch the surface. When you take into account the conference wining percentage and the variation of membership's success, the waters become murky. If one's argument is depth, then the consistent underperforming bottom of the B16 has to be considered helping the inflation of the upper tier. As I illustrated, that didn't exist in the ACC; the ACC had stronger programs overall as a unit. Take the ACC 12 and add ECU, UCF, Charleston, and VMI and let's see what the results would have been.

All things considered, I don't believe there is enough to say the BE16 was hands down a better conference.
05-29-2020 09:34 AM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
(05-29-2020 09:07 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(05-29-2020 08:49 AM)orangefan Wrote:  8 seasons, 2005-06 through 2012-13, the Big East accumulated 155 tournament shares in the NCAA Tournament with 16 members (15 in 2012-13). That's 9.7 shares per member, or 1.2 shares per member per year.

The ACC accumulated 94 tournament shares during the same period with 12 members. That's 7.8 shares per member, or .98 shares per member per year.

For comparison, during the 6 season period from 2013-14 through 2018-19, the ACC accumulated 117 tournament shares with 12 members. That's 7.8 shares per member (over the shorter 6 season period), or 1.3 shares per member per year.

Keep in mind that you get 1 share just for being invited, so NCAA units are not always a good way to measure QUALITY. I tend to favor NCAAT W-L records - but even that is distorted by seeding.

The winning percentages in the tournament were very similar. The Big East had 65 bids, a 96-63 record, and a .604 winning percentage. The ACC had 41 bids, a 62-39, and a .614 winning percentage.

The difference in total shares (relative to conference size) appears to be driven by the number of invitations. The Big East had an average of 4.1 invitations per school over the eight years, while the ACC had only 3.4 invitations per school. The performance of the schools invited was very similar, suggesting that there was no significant bias in the NCAA's selection of the schools -- i.e., the schools invited from each conference performed at a similar average level.

This suggests to me that the schools in the middle of the pack in the Big East were better than their peers in the ACC because more tended to earn NCAA invitations and then performed well. While this says nothing about the strength of the schools at the bottom of the conference, it does undermine the argument that the teams at the top and in the middle of the Big East achieved their success by beating up on a weak bottom of the conference. The schools that were invited performed as well versus tournament competition as the schools invited from the ACC. If the invitations provided to Big East schools were the result of padding their resumes on poor competition from the bottom of the conference, you would expect a weaker performance in NCAA play.

Finally, it appears that the ACC's success during this eight year period was extremely top heavy. UNC and Duke earned 49 of the ACC's 94 tournament shares, or 52%. The two strongest teams in the Big East, Louisville and Syracuse earned only 42 tournament shares during this same period. Further, six different members of the Big East made the Final Four, with Louisville and UConn each doing it twice and each winning a National Championship. Only two schools from the ACC made it to the Final Four, UNC twice and Duke once, with each also winning a National Championship.
(This post was last modified: 05-29-2020 10:42 AM by orangefan.)
05-29-2020 10:12 AM
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Post: #33
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
(05-29-2020 09:07 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(05-29-2020 08:49 AM)orangefan Wrote:  8 seasons, 2005-06 through 2012-13, the Big East accumulated 155 tournament shares in the NCAA Tournament with 16 members (15 in 2012-13). That's 9.7 shares per member, or 1.2 shares per member per year.

The ACC accumulated 94 tournament shares during the same period with 12 members. That's 7.8 shares per member, or .98 shares per member per year.

For comparison, during the 6 season period from 2013-14 through 2018-19, the ACC accumulated 117 tournament shares with 12 members. That's 7.8 shares per member (over the shorter 6 season period), or 1.3 shares per member per year.

Keep in mind that you get 1 share just for being invited, so NCAA units are not always a good way to measure QUALITY. I tend to favor NCAAT W-L records - but even that is distorted by seeding.

But for the most part you earn that seeding in the regular season (sure the Selection Committee has screwed up seeds and even put undeserving teams in/kept teams out before but for the most part higher seeds are higher seeds for a reason).
05-29-2020 10:22 AM
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Hokie Mark Online
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Post: #34
MyBB RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
(05-29-2020 10:12 AM)orangefan Wrote:  The winning percentages in the tournament were very similar. The Big East had 65 bids, a 96-63 record, and a .604 winning percentage. The ACC had 41 bids, a 62-39, and a .614 winning percentage.

The difference in total shares (relative to conference size) appears to be driven by the number of invitations. The Big East had an average of 4.1 invitations per school over the eight years, while the ACC had only 3.4 invitations per school. The performance of the schools invited was very similar, suggesting that there was no significant bias in the NCAA's selection of the schools -- i.e., the schools invited from each conference performed at a similar average level.

This suggests to me that the schools in the middle of the pack in the Big East were better than their peers in the ACC because more tended to earn NCAA invitations and then performed well. While this says nothing about the strength of the schools at the bottom of the conference, it does undermine the argument that the teams at the top and in the middle of the Big East achieved their success by beating up on a weak bottom of the conference. The schools that were invited performed as well versus tournament competition as the schools invited from the ACC. If the invitations provided to Big East schools were the result of padding their resumes on poor competition from the bottom of the conference, you would expect a weaker performance in NCAA play.

Finally, it appears that the ACC's success during this eight year period was extremely top heavy. UNC and Duke earned 49 of the ACC's 94 tournament shares, or 52%. The two strongest teams in the Big East, Louisville and Syracuse earned only 42 tournament shares during this same period. Further, six different members of the Big East made the Final Four, with Louisville and UConn each doing it twice and each winning a National Championship. Only two schools from the ACC made it to the Final Four, UNC twice and Duke once, with each also winning a National Championship.

I think the statement struck through goes too far, but I totally agree with those in bold - we CAN infer that the Big East teams actually invited to the NCAA tournament were just as good as the ACC teams invited. The one thing we don't know is how the teams NOT invited compare... unless we look at NIT records! (I'm not going to do it - my wife says I spend too much time blogging about football already - but one of you basketball gurus should be able to whip it out).
05-29-2020 01:56 PM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
Well, we are in the ACC now so I root for the ACC. However, the Big East Tournament was so much more impressive than the ACC tournament it’s not even worth debating.

There’s just nothing like Madison Square Garden on a Saturday night. I can’t explain it. You had to experience it. However, no sane human being would compare favorably Greensboro on a Sunday afternoon versus Madison Square Garden on a Saturday night. That’s just not a debatable topic.

As for the leagues themselves, I think the ACC was more consistent. I also think the Big Ten was more consistent than the Big East. I think that area from 1990 to around 1998 the Big East was very overrated.

However, the Big East in the mid to late 80s was the best college basketball conference I’ve ever seen. When they put three of the Final Four teams in the 1985 Final Four, and were basically a Memphis State buzzer beater over Boston College away from having all four of the Final Four teams, that was the most impressive thing any conference has ever done in college basketball history.

I mean there’s a reason why no one else had done it before or since, right?

That is not to denigrate the ACC, which was also amazing at that time. While the BE was holding these classic match ups between Georgetown and Syracuse and Villanova and Providence and you name it, the ACC was doing the exact same thing just down the coast. College basketball was at its Apex in those days and those two leagues were both absolutely loaded.

I don’t think it really makes much difference to talk about who was better than whom. They were both great. The only thing that I feel is clearly better about the Big East than the ACC is the tournament. The BE tournament was the best college basketball tournament in the world and it probably still is. The ACC Tournament was the original tournament, but as someone who has attended both, the latter pales in comparison to the former.

Again, I don’t know what to do about that? I’m not really in favor of playing the games in Brooklyn and I don’t think we can get MSG. However, I’m also not interested in pretending that Greensboro is a great atmosphere because it’s not. It was an astonishingly pedestrian atmosphere, TBH.

However, in fairness, I haven’t been to a Big East tournament since that league realigned and my guess is that it’s not quite what it once was either. It’s hard to be that if you’re missing out on Syracuse, Notre Dame, Pitt, Louisville, etc.
(This post was last modified: 05-29-2020 05:32 PM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
05-29-2020 05:27 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
Ask Statefan about the old school tournaments in Greensboro. It’s a whole different culture, but the basketball was the best in the land before the Big East existed.

I remember watching the tourney in school. I remember hearing Laettner called words I was too young to understand. I remember the teal and purple floor of the Coliseum. Nostalgia is a great thing.
05-29-2020 05:59 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
(05-29-2020 05:27 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Well, we are in the ACC now so I root for the ACC...

However, the Big East in the mid to late 80s was the best college basketball conference I’ve ever seen. When they put three of the Final Four teams in the 1985 Final Four, and were basically a Memphis State buzzer beater over Boston College away from having all four of the Final Four teams, that was the most impressive thing any conference has ever done in college basketball history.

I mean there’s a reason why no one else had done it before or since, right?

That 3/4 Final Four WAS impressive! I would say the closest thing I've seen is the 6/8 Elite Eight by the ACC in 2016.
05-29-2020 06:29 PM
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CardinalJim Online
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Post: #38
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
The game played in The ACC is a different game than The Big East brand of basketball. Big East basketball from 2005 - 2013 was the best league in the history of college basketball.

I know ACC fans want to defend their little country league and that’s OK, they didn’t play in The Big East, so it’s all they know.

Nothing on the planet touches Championship Saturday Night of the Big East Tournament in MSG.
05-29-2020 09:55 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
(05-29-2020 09:55 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  The game played in The ACC is a different game than The Big East brand of basketball. Big East basketball from 2005 - 2013 was the best league in the history of college basketball.

I know ACC fans want to defend their little country league and that’s OK, they didn’t play in The Big East, so it’s all they know.

Nothing on the planet touches Championship Saturday Night of the Big East Tournament in MSG.

When I think of the Big East, I definitely don’t think of Louisville. No offense.

We will agree to disagree. It was not the best conference in history. South Florida would never have had an ACC logo on their floor. Sorry.

Like I said earlier, put ECU, UCF, VMI, and Charleston in the ACC for those years and let’s compare charts.
05-29-2020 11:08 PM
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orangefan Offline
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RE: Comparison of Historical ACC and Big East Basketball
(05-29-2020 01:56 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(05-29-2020 10:12 AM)orangefan Wrote:  The winning percentages in the tournament were very similar. The Big East had 65 bids, a 96-63 record, and a .604 winning percentage. The ACC had 41 bids, a 62-39, and a .614 winning percentage.

The difference in total shares (relative to conference size) appears to be driven by the number of invitations. The Big East had an average of 4.1 invitations per school over the eight years, while the ACC had only 3.4 invitations per school. The performance of the schools invited was very similar, suggesting that there was no significant bias in the NCAA's selection of the schools -- i.e., the schools invited from each conference performed at a similar average level.

This suggests to me that the schools in the middle of the pack in the Big East were better than their peers in the ACC because more tended to earn NCAA invitations and then performed well. While this says nothing about the strength of the schools at the bottom of the conference, it does undermine the argument that the teams at the top and in the middle of the Big East achieved their success by beating up on a weak bottom of the conference. The schools that were invited performed as well versus tournament competition as the schools invited from the ACC. If the invitations provided to Big East schools were the result of padding their resumes on poor competition from the bottom of the conference, you would expect a weaker performance in NCAA play.

Finally, it appears that the ACC's success during this eight year period was extremely top heavy. UNC and Duke earned 49 of the ACC's 94 tournament shares, or 52%. The two strongest teams in the Big East, Louisville and Syracuse earned only 42 tournament shares during this same period. Further, six different members of the Big East made the Final Four, with Louisville and UConn each doing it twice and each winning a National Championship. Only two schools from the ACC made it to the Final Four, UNC twice and Duke once, with each also winning a National Championship.

I think the statement struck through goes too far, but I totally agree with those in bold - we CAN infer that the Big East teams actually invited to the NCAA tournament were just as good as the ACC teams invited. The one thing we don't know is how the teams NOT invited compare... unless we look at NIT records! (I'm not going to do it - my wife says I spend too much time blogging about football already - but one of you basketball gurus should be able to whip it out).

Your point is well taken. That statement was a reach. I thought the discussion deserved a little more research regarding NCAA tournament shares earned by school. The following chart shows the shares earned the tournament bids earned by all members of each conference from 2005-06 through 2012-13:

Louisville 22 7
Syracuse 18 6
Villanova 17 7
Marquette 17 8
Connecticut 16 5
Pittsburgh 16 7
Georgetown 15 7
West Virginia 15 6
Notre Dame 8 6
Cincinnati 6 3
So. Florida 3 1
St. John's 1 1
Seton Hall 1 1
DePaul 0 0
Providence 0 0
Rutgers 0 0
BE TOTAL 155 65


North Carolina 26 7
Duke 22 8
Florida State 7 4
Boston College 6 3
Maryland 6 3
NC State 6 3
Clemson 5 4
Miami 5 2
Georgia Tech 3 2
Wake Forest 3 2
Virginia 3 2
Virginia Tech 2 1
ACC TOTAL 94 41
(This post was last modified: 05-30-2020 08:42 AM by orangefan.)
05-30-2020 08:37 AM
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