I know that this would result in a loss of TV revenue, but perhaps worth the risk. I think Pitt should go back to independent, and use a league (like ND does) for bowl tie-ins. I miss the traditional schedule Pitt had with BC, Temple, Rutgers, Navy, WVU, Syracuse and so on. There's zero traditional rivals on our schedule. I'd rather play Navy on a yearly basis than Duke, I'd rather play Rutgers on a yearly basis than North Carolina. This is nothing personal against the likes of Virginia and Georgia Tech, but these games just don't get me excited for Saturdays. Maybe I'm wrong with this opinion. But conference realignment and the chase of money really destroyed what was left of northeastern football. Big East was a valiant effort to create a northeastern league, but wasn't meant to be. But being in a southern based league with no rivals isn't the fit I was expecting it to be. Virginia Tech is the closest thing we have to a yearly rival, and it doesn't come close to the hatred we had with WVU and likely never will. We may hate a Miami, but we're not close to being Miami's top rival either. Florida, FSU and ND are much more rivals for Miami than Pitt is. Call this buyer's remorse, I don't know. But if I'm Pitt admin, I'm closely looking to what UConn and BYU are doing.

Gimme this sample schedule:

Army
Virginia Tech
Temple
Maryland
Boston College
Rutgers
Navy
BYU
Notre Dame
Syracuse
UConn
WVU

And I'm sure many Pitt fans will disagree, and that's ok. My opinion doesn't represent that of all Pitt fans nor those that run Pitt athletics.

From this list:

Quote: Army
Virginia Tech
Temple
Maryland
Boston College
Rutgers
Navy
BYU
Notre Dame
Syracuse
UConn
WVU

How many can Pitt rely on getting in the second half of the season? UConn, surely, don't think they could annually rely on any of the others once conference play starts.

So Pitt might get half of that schedule, but then the back end of their schedule would be more like UMass, Liberty, NMSU, an FCS buy game, UConn and ONE of Army/BYU/Navy.

Indeed, in the ACC, Pitt will play Virginia Tech, Boston College, Notre Dame and Syracuse more often then they are likely to be able to schedule them as independents.

But if they want to drop down to the AAC to swap regular games against those four for regular games against Temple and Navy, I am sure something could be arranged ... it just so happens that the AAC has an opening right now, and if Pitt wanted to fill it, it seems like a lead pipe cinch that they would be in. There'd be the minor matter of all of their home games belonging to the ACC for years on end, but normally if you throw enough money at a problem like that, it can be made to go away.

(05-22-2020 01:52 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  From this list:

Quote: Army
Virginia Tech
Temple
Maryland
Boston College
Rutgers
Navy
BYU
Notre Dame
Syracuse
UConn
WVU

How many can Pitt rely on getting in the second half of the season? UConn, surely, don't think they could annually rely on any of the others once conference play starts.

So Pitt might get half of that schedule, but then the back end of their schedule would be more like UMass, Liberty, NMSU, an FCS buy game, UConn and ONE of Army/BYU/Navy.

Indeed, in the ACC, Pitt will play Virginia Tech, Boston College, Notre Dame and Syracuse more often then they are likely to be able to schedule them as independents.

But if they want to drop down to the AAC to swap regular games against those four for regular games against Temple and Navy, I am sure something could be arranged ... it just so happens that the AAC has an opening right now, and if Pitt wanted to fill it, it seems like a lead pipe cinch that they would be in. There'd be the minor matter of all of their home games belonging to the ACC for years on end, but normally if you throw enough money at a problem like that, it can be made to go away.

The only ones that could be a problem are Syracuse and WVU. The latter half of the schedule are mostly independents. And can always put WVU first and end with Army. And then swap Syracuse (if they're not available) for a UMass and that schedule is completely doable.

(05-22-2020 01:59 AM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  The only ones that could be a problem are Syracuse and WVU. The latter half of the schedule are mostly independents.

You only have four independents there ... Army, BYU, UConn and Notre Dame, and you obviously can't get Army or BYU every year, and certainly can't get Notre Dame AS often as you are going to get Notre Dame within the five ACC games they play.

So UConn, plus ONE of Army/BYU/Notre ... plus an FCS buy game ... who are the other three games in the back end of the schedule?

Not Navy/Temple/VATech/BCCollege/Syracuse/Rutgers/Maryland/WVU, at least not with any regularity.

Though that list does indicate the degree to which Pitt was one of the schools impacted by Maryland and Rutgers getting taken by the Big Ten, and then the Big Ten going to 9 conference games.

(05-22-2020 01:09 AM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  I know that this would result in a loss of TV revenue, but perhaps worth the risk. I think Pitt should go back to independent, and use a league (like ND does) for bowl tie-ins. I miss the traditional schedule Pitt had with BC, Temple, Rutgers, Navy, WVU, Syracuse and so on. There's zero traditional rivals on our schedule. I'd rather play Navy on a yearly basis than Duke, I'd rather play Rutgers on a yearly basis than North Carolina. This is nothing personal against the likes of Virginia and Georgia Tech, but these games just don't get me excited for Saturdays. Maybe I'm wrong with this opinion. But conference realignment and the chase of money really destroyed what was left of northeastern football. Big East was a valiant effort to create a northeastern league, but wasn't meant to be. But being in a southern based league with no rivals isn't the fit I was expecting it to be. Virginia Tech is the closest thing we have to a yearly rival, and it doesn't come close to the hatred we had with WVU and likely never will. We may hate a Miami, but we're not close to being Miami's top rival either. Florida, FSU and ND are much more rivals for Miami than Pitt is. Call this buyer's remorse, I don't know. But if I'm Pitt admin, I'm closely looking to what UConn and BYU are doing.

Gimme this sample schedule:

Army
Virginia Tech
Temple
Maryland
Boston College
Rutgers
Navy
BYU
Notre Dame
Syracuse
UConn
WVU

And I'm sure many Pitt fans will disagree, and that's ok. My opinion doesn't represent that of all Pitt fans nor those that run Pitt athletics.

Excellent idea, but you may want to take it one step further.
If you can win the release of BC, Syracuse, and Pitt from the ACC and Maryland and Rutgers from the B1G, you could start your own conference.
From your list, I don't really see Virginia Tech ever volunteering to leave the ACC, but adding Cincinnati will help with your numbers.
I figure that you would require 10 full time members + an arrangement with Norte Dame. For #10 you could approach Louisville or Navy.
This would leave the ACC with either 10 or 11 depending on what Louisville does (either way would be fine).
As the cable model continues to erode, this idea actually solves the problem for the B1G of what to do about the Rutgers and Maryland adds.
This might start a trend. The SEC could cede Arkansas and Missouri to the Big 12 which would mitigate the loss of West Virginia to your new conference.
Then we would be at six conferences with significantly less travel for all schools, a much greater regional flair with no conference larger than a manageable 12 members.

Notre Dame throws the ACC off-kilter with their back-half games, so Pitt should have no problem scheduling ACC teams in October and November, it may even help the conference avoid late byes.

(05-22-2020 01:09 AM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  I know that this would result in a loss of TV revenue, but perhaps worth the risk. I think Pitt should go back to independent, and use a league (like ND does) for bowl tie-ins. I miss the traditional schedule Pitt had with BC, Temple, Rutgers, Navy, WVU, Syracuse and so on. There's zero traditional rivals on our schedule. I'd rather play Navy on a yearly basis than Duke, I'd rather play Rutgers on a yearly basis than North Carolina. This is nothing personal against the likes of Virginia and Georgia Tech, but these games just don't get me excited for Saturdays. Maybe I'm wrong with this opinion. But conference realignment and the chase of money really destroyed what was left of northeastern football. Big East was a valiant effort to create a northeastern league, but wasn't meant to be. But being in a southern based league with no rivals isn't the fit I was expecting it to be. Virginia Tech is the closest thing we have to a yearly rival, and it doesn't come close to the hatred we had with WVU and likely never will. We may hate a Miami, but we're not close to being Miami's top rival either. Florida, FSU and ND are much more rivals for Miami than Pitt is. Call this buyer's remorse, I don't know. But if I'm Pitt admin, I'm closely looking to what UConn and BYU are doing.

Gimme this sample schedule:

Army
Virginia Tech
Temple
Maryland
Boston College
Rutgers
Navy
BYU
Notre Dame
Syracuse
UConn
WVU

And I'm sure many Pitt fans will disagree, and that's ok. My opinion doesn't represent that of all Pitt fans nor those that run Pitt athletics.

If double the media money in the Big 10 & SEC ever does entice away core schools of the ACC then I think there will be a definite possibility to rebuild a Northeastern football conference.

I don't see B.C., Syracuse, Temple, Connecticut, or Miami for that matter making a move to the Big 10 or SEC. The service academies don't like week in and week out games against the size of athletes you find in the Big 10 or SEC so Army and Navy would probably be amenable as well.

The peculiar thing about realignment is it eventually (even though the conference names may change) rearranges schools back with those that played with before. The old Metro schools tend to gravitate back together and the old CUSA schools do as well. It just takes time for the conferences they thought they upgraded into to lose the schools they upgraded to be with.

If Texas and/or Oklahoma ever leave the Big 12 WVU would have no economic reason to remain. Solid schools like Cincinnati might find good reason to join up with a northeastern conference as an upgrade of peers.

I think some of this is going to happen because the investment level in college football is about to form a new tier that I'm not sure all of the current P schools will want to participate in. It could come as early as the middle of this decade, or a bit later and quite possibly beyond my lifetime but it seems to me the process is well underway and people miss the reason it is happening. Upper tier college football can reap advertising revenue second only to the NFL. But the cost of production is largely shared by the schools with the network. The NFL is so massive of an economic entity and so self contained that they don't leave as much on the table percentage wise for the size of the investment required to carry them as do the still somewhat disorganized top college draws. So there's more of a ROI on top colleges than the NFL although it never will replace the NFL. That aspect attracts the networks and challenges the mission of college athletics and may very soon turn it into officially what it already is surreptitiously, a semi professional product.

Schools that don't desire that step formally, and are unwilling to broach their tax status, pay players, or dedicate a whole apparatus to it are likely to continue to offer football as it is supposed to be now. That's going to create a new distinction. I could easily see what were mostly Northeastern privates and state schools like Pitt which operate more like a private going that route. B.C. has already expressed reservations over the current direction of college athletics.

So should a North Carolina or Virginia Tech or Clemson or F.S.U. seek to step it up for exposure, or actually consider a move to the Big 10 or SEC to move from 32 million a year in TV revenue to closer to 70 million which is where the SEC and Big 10 will be by the mid 20's there could easily be an opening for the reformation of a Northeastern Football conference. I think you are a good deal younger than I am and if it happens I believe most of the schools that once comprised the OBE might be open to a resurrection of it. Even the basketball only schools have suffered some since the breakup and there is a synergy for the region where that competition is concerned and with football's limits having been defined and accepted I doubt it would be the dividing force it was becoming at the time of the breakup. You might even have some current East Coast privates that would like to join like say Duke, or Wake Forest or even a Vanderbilt. I truly doubt any of those schools are going to be comfortable heading where football might go next.

It does hurt me not seeing Penn State on your list although I wonder if that's more Penn State not wanting to play Pittsburgh than the other way around (I'm pretty sure that is the case). Call me old but I really wish the two played every year. The year-end "Backyward Brawl" between Pittsburgh and West Virginia didn't become a thing until 1997, they played late in 1995 but played early in 1996 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_Brawl). Up until Penn State left for the Big Ten, they were the main November game for the Panthers, most often the finale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_State..._rivalry). Every time I hear about Pittsburgh-West Virginia being the rivalry I feel insulted.

I'm not going to say I don't want Penn State in the Big Ten (of course I'm saying that because my undergraduate degree is from Illinois). But even though I grew up playing Pittsburgh I've also grown accustomed to playing Ohio State and Michigan as well. In my ideal world Penn State would be playing Ohio State, Michigan, and Pittsburgh every year (I also miss playing Notre Dame every year as well as Syracuse).

If you ever wonder why I'm not as into college football as I am into college basketball, the Northeast isn't a great place for college football. ClairtonPanther doesn't feel like he has any rivalries in football. At Penn State, we have two Eastern teams and one is one of the most irrelevant teams in college football and one of the stupidest names for a college. How can you really get up for football? Penn State and Pittsburgh don't have an annual Iron Bowl or "Big Game" to look forward to every year. We did but our schools don't want to play anymore (or at the very least PSU doesn't want to play Pittsburgh, I always hear Pittsburgh is open to playing). At Penn State, we look forward to playing Ohio State but they look forward to playing Michigan. And living in Philly, don't even get me started on Temple football (or after UConn leaves, Temple men's basketball, at least we have Villanova). I've lived here for 20 years and I don't think I've seen one Temple football game. Who in the AAC is worth paying to see live?

(05-22-2020 05:33 AM)schmolik Wrote:  It does hurt me not seeing Penn State on your list although I wonder if that's more Penn State not wanting to play Pittsburgh than the other way around (I'm pretty sure that is the case). Call me old but I really wish the two played every year. The year-end "Backyward Brawl" between Pittsburgh and West Virginia didn't become a thing until 1997, they played late in 1995 but played early in 1996 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard_Brawl). Up until Penn State left for the Big Ten, they were the main November game for the Panthers, most often the finale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_State..._rivalry). Every time I hear about Pittsburgh-West Virginia being the rivalry I feel insulted.

I'm not going to say I don't want Penn State in the Big Ten (of course I'm saying that because my undergraduate degree is from Illinois). But even though I grew up playing Pittsburgh I've also grown accustomed to playing Ohio State and Michigan as well. In my ideal world Penn State would be playing Ohio State, Michigan, and Pittsburgh every year (I also miss playing Notre Dame every year as well as Syracuse).

If you ever wonder why I'm not as into college football as I am into college basketball, the Northeast isn't a great place for college football. ClairtonPanther doesn't feel like he has any rivalries in football. At Penn State, we have two Eastern teams and one is one of the most irrelevant teams in college football and one of the stupidest names for a college. How can you really get up for football? Penn State and Pittsburgh don't have an annual Iron Bowl or "Big Game" to look forward to every year. We did but our schools don't want to play anymore (or at the very least PSU doesn't want to play Pittsburgh, I always hear Pittsburgh is open to playing). At Penn State, we look forward to playing Ohio State but they look forward to playing Michigan. And living in Philly, don't even get me started on Temple football (or after UConn leaves, Temple men's basketball, at least we have Villanova). I've lived here for 20 years and I don't think I've seen one Temple football game. Who in the AAC is worth paying to see live?

Since I started watching CFB in the late 80's I didn't really know about Pitt other than Tony Dorsett, or it's rivalry game with psu.. However I do remember the games between Pitt and WV in the 90's and 2000's. Those were fun games on ESPN2. SO you shouldn't take it as an insult when people discuss Pitt/WVU as a rivalry game. I wish they would start playing again TBH

The lack of a strong, Eastern all sports conference really kills Pitt. Imagine if it had been economically viable for Penn St to anchor such a league:

Penn St
Pitt
Syracuse
BC
UConn
Rutgers
Temple
Maryland
WVU
VT
Miami

Unfortunately, circumstances and internal politics within the Big East prevented that from ever being a reality and rather than be a cohesive, united region the football programs in that part of the country got Balkanized.

To add insult to injury, when the ACC entered into its relationship with ND, Pitt lost that ever important annual game.

Pitt’s biggest draws are Penn St, ND, and WVU. Now they rarely play any of them. Annual games with Syracuse and Miami hardly make up for why was lost. Those were 4th or 5th rate rivalries at best.

It’s too bad that back in 2005, when the ACC was gutting the Big East of its football programs they didn’t have the foresight to expand past 12 to create a Northern and Southern division that could have kept some of those programs together

Well... Pitt had such a league, but its chancellor decided to turn down the money that was offered the conference in 2011 to go with the cool kids in the ACC. You reap what you sow.

(05-22-2020 01:09 AM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  I know that this would result in a loss of TV revenue, but perhaps worth the risk. I think Pitt should go back to independent, and use a league (like ND does) for bowl tie-ins. I miss the traditional schedule Pitt had with BC, Temple, Rutgers, Navy, WVU, Syracuse and so on. There's zero traditional rivals on our schedule. I'd rather play Navy on a yearly basis than Duke, I'd rather play Rutgers on a yearly basis than North Carolina. This is nothing personal against the likes of Virginia and Georgia Tech, but these games just don't get me excited for Saturdays. Maybe I'm wrong with this opinion. But conference realignment and the chase of money really destroyed what was left of northeastern football. Big East was a valiant effort to create a northeastern league, but wasn't meant to be. But being in a southern based league with no rivals isn't the fit I was expecting it to be. Virginia Tech is the closest thing we have to a yearly rival, and it doesn't come close to the hatred we had with WVU and likely never will. We may hate a Miami, but we're not close to being Miami's top rival either. Florida, FSU and ND are much more rivals for Miami than Pitt is. Call this buyer's remorse, I don't know. But if I'm Pitt admin, I'm closely looking to what UConn and BYU are doing.

Gimme this sample schedule:

Army
Virginia Tech
Temple
Maryland
Boston College
Rutgers
Navy
BYU
Notre Dame
Syracuse
UConn
WVU

And I'm sure many Pitt fans will disagree, and that's ok. My opinion doesn't represent that of all Pitt fans nor those that run Pitt athletics.

This ND fan says hell yeah, I would love to see Pitt as a football independent.

Notre Dame and Pitt used to play each other almost every year before this ACC stuff came about.

Well, Pitt decided to join the Big East where only two schools played 1-A football – Villanova had just dropped their program – and coincidently, those two are who they're still in a conference with. Although, they only play Syracuse every season. Of the teams you mentioned, Virginia Tech is on the schedule every year too.

I think West Virginia, Temple, and UConn would play a yearly game right now, and Notre Dame pops up on the schedule every now and then – not getting them yearly. A yearly game with Navy isn't happening no matter what, they're in a conference without much wiggle room schedule-wise. On a side note, Penn State (main rival) ditched Pitt, and being an Independent wouldn't help Pitt in that regard.

Let's take a closer look here, I think you'll see that Independence won't help Pitt schedule most of these teams:

Army - - Probably could have a series now, but not yearly
Virginia Tech - - Already play yearly, going Indy could eliminate that
Temple - - Definitely could schedule a yearly series
Maryland - - Doubt they would schedule a yearly series no matter what. Nothing preventing a limited series now
Boston College - - This one sucks because of divisions
Rutgers - - See Maryland
Navy - - Schedule is restricted due to AAC conference slate and yearly Academy opponents
BYU - - Definitely could schedule a series
Notre Dame - - Staying in the ACC is the best way to guarantee a series with them
Syracuse - - Already play yearly, going Indy could eliminate that
UConn - - Definitely could schedule a yearly series
WVU - - Upcoming series if IIRC, should be played yearly during Rivalry Week

Sounds like you need the ACC to add a couple of members and divide among ACC/Big East lines.

North
Boston College
Louisville
Miami
Pitt
Syracuse
UConn
Virginia Tech
+Cincy or Temple or WVU or better yet Notre Dame as a full member

South
Clemson
Duke
Florida State
Georgia Tech
NC State
North Carolina
Virginia
Wake Forest

(05-22-2020 07:25 AM)TerryD Wrote:  This ND fan says hell yeah, I would love to see Pitt as a football independent.

Notre Dame and Pitt used to play each other almost every year before this ACC stuff came about.

Pitt being an Independent would not make Notre Dame schedule them on an annual basis.

Had Notre Dame stayed in the Big East, then they could still schedule Pitt, Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, and whomever else they wanted every season.

On a side note, the ACC really needs to push the ND-Louisville basketball series. Why the hell is ND playing GaTech (?!?!) twice in basketball every season and not Louisville?

It won't happen because $ but independent FB + BIG EAST BB would inject some much needed energy and identity into Pitt.

Opponents Pitt can schedule in the 2nd half:
Notre Dame
BYU
Army
UConn
UMass
Liberty

Opponents Pitt can schedule in the 1st half:
Penn St (Temple if PSU is still being babies)
WVU
Syracuse
Boston College
Rutgers
Maryland

Pitt FB schedule
Penn St (/Temple)
West Virginia
Syracuse
Boston College
Rutgers
Maryland
Notre Dame
BYU
Army
UConn
UMass
Liberty

(05-22-2020 08:28 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(05-22-2020 07:25 AM)TerryD Wrote:  This ND fan says hell yeah, I would love to see Pitt as a football independent.

Notre Dame and Pitt used to play each other almost every year before this ACC stuff came about.

Pitt being an Independent would not make Notre Dame schedule them on an annual basis.

Had Notre Dame stayed in the Big East, then they could still schedule Pitt, Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, and whomever else they wanted every season.

On a side note, the ACC really needs to push the ND-Louisville basketball series. Why the hell is ND playing GaTech (?!?!) twice in basketball every season and not Louisville?

Because they probably want Louisville playing the better opponents like Duke, North Carolina, Virginia, and/or Syracuse twice a season instead.

(05-22-2020 08:39 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(05-22-2020 08:28 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(05-22-2020 07:25 AM)TerryD Wrote:  This ND fan says hell yeah, I would love to see Pitt as a football independent.

Notre Dame and Pitt used to play each other almost every year before this ACC stuff came about.

Pitt being an Independent would not make Notre Dame schedule them on an annual basis.

Had Notre Dame stayed in the Big East, then they could still schedule Pitt, Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, and whomever else they wanted every season.

On a side note, the ACC really needs to push the ND-Louisville basketball series. Why the hell is ND playing GaTech (?!?!) twice in basketball every season and not Louisville?

Because they probably want Louisville playing the better opponents like Duke, North Carolina, Virginia, and/or Syracuse twice a season instead.

Louisville's current annual opponents are Pitt and Virginia. They took Maryland's and were never altered to make sense for Louisville. The Cards have played Notre Dame more than any other opponent in the ACC.*

*Actually they've played FSU and Virginia Tech more (Metro Days), but ND is their closest, and third most played opponent.

(05-22-2020 06:34 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The lack of a strong, Eastern all sports conference really kills Pitt. Imagine if it had been economically viable for Penn St to anchor such a league:

Penn St
Pitt
Syracuse
BC
UConn
Rutgers
Temple
Maryland
WVU
VT
Miami

Miami/VT still end up joining the ACC, but the Big East could've easily been salvaged with the other 9. Even if PSU bolts, Big East calls up Army/Navy FB-only for a 10-team league like the modern BXII.

It's a shame those core-8 schools didn't stick together.

(05-22-2020 01:09 AM)ClairtonPanther Wrote:  I know that this would result in a loss of TV revenue, but perhaps worth the risk. I think Pitt should go back to independent, and use a league (like ND does) for bowl tie-ins. I miss the traditional schedule Pitt had with BC, Temple, Rutgers, Navy, WVU, Syracuse and so on. There's zero traditional rivals on our schedule.

Your suggestion is perfectly reasonable from most POVs, it is only "radical" from a $$$ POV. As an outsider, I have fond memories of Pitt as an independent. Joining the Big East didn't really change that as it just kind of codified in conference terms the teams Pitt was basically scheduling anyway as an independent. But the ACC schedule is radically different and as you say there just aren't historical connections there.

Won't happen, because the money loss would be huge, but I understand why you would prefer that independent schedule. I think in an ideal world, many of us would like to see basically that schedule of teams you list, minus Notre Dame, as part of a "northeast" conference that never was. i would substitute Penn State for VT, as VT has proven a good fit in every way with the ACC.