(05-20-2020 11:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:04 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 10:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Deny the waiver.

If CMU can't uphold FBS standards, they need to drop down, where they belong.

They've been in the Top 25 and have just put in a new FB facility. Long tradition of competitiveness in MAC FB.

This is like saying Troy should drop down.

Last year, CMU had an athletic budget of $27 million, of which $20 million was a subsidy. That means they only generated about $7m from athletic operations. That is beyond pathetic, nowhere near what should be FBS standards.

Their attendance is bad. At a 2018 game they announced 10,000 official attendance and a reporter counted 255 people in one half of the stands. It's an embarrassing excuse for FBS program.

Everyone fudges their reported attendance numbers. The better measure is ticket sales, how much money they actually collect from selling tickets. And it's not much. Per the USA Today database, CMU's annual ticket revenue (for all sports) is very FCS-ish. In 2018, their annual revenue from ticket sales was $632,604, second-lowest in the MAC. (Kent State was lowest at $467,408.) That would be about average, maybe even below average, in FCS football conferences like the Big Sky or MVFC.

But, as long as CMU actually complies with the rules -- including having the required numbers of varsity sports -- and as long as they find the money somewhere, they can stay in FBS. They won't be kicked out if they are in compliance with the rules.

(05-20-2020 08:23 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  NCAA should not provide a waiver to someone who knowingly breaks the rules.

Like Chicago St?

(05-20-2020 12:00 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 10:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Deny the waiver.

If CMU can't uphold FBS standards, they need to drop down, where they belong.

To be fair---they cant afford it because they were ordered by the state to shut down operations. I have no issue with a temporary waiver given the unusual circumstances. That said, it would be a good time for CMU reexamine their decision to compete at the FBS level. Im not sure they are all that committed. Its possible Cynicloes "D" option is in play. Much easier on the administration if they want to drop down if it appears they were "forced" to move down.

That's what I thought too when the G5 initially applied for a waiver.

(05-20-2020 12:03 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:04 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 10:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Deny the waiver.

If CMU can't uphold FBS standards, they need to drop down, where they belong.

They've been in the Top 25 and have just put in a new FB facility. Long tradition of competitiveness in MAC FB.

This is like saying Troy should drop down.

Last year, CMU had an athletic budget of $27 million, of which $20 million was a subsidy. That means they only generated about $7m from athletic operations. That is beyond pathetic, nowhere near what should be FBS standards.

Their attendance is bad. At a 2018 game they announced 10,000 official attendance and a reporter counted 255 people in one half of the stands. It's an embarrassing excuse for FBS program.

Everyone fudges their reported attendance numbers. The better measure is ticket sales, how much money they actually collect from selling tickets. And it's not much. Per the USA Today database, CMU's annual ticket revenue (for all sports) is very FCS-ish. In 2018, their annual revenue from ticket sales was $632,604, second-lowest in the MAC. (Kent State was lowest at $467,408.) That would be about average, maybe even below average, in FCS football conferences like the Big Sky or MVFC.

But, as long as CMU actually complies with the rules -- including having the required numbers of varsity sports -- and as long as they find the money somewhere, they can stay in FBS. They won't be kicked out if they are in compliance with the rules.

2018 CMU went 1-11. A 6-6 or 7-5 season for the average MAC team usually sees better attendance then that. Central Michigan is historically a strong MAC team.

Every off-season the MAC team that finished at the bottom of the standings gets attacked for having FBS or football period. This season it's Akron. Many times it's Eastern Michigan.

(05-20-2020 12:03 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:04 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 10:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Deny the waiver.

If CMU can't uphold FBS standards, they need to drop down, where they belong.

They've been in the Top 25 and have just put in a new FB facility. Long tradition of competitiveness in MAC FB.

This is like saying Troy should drop down.

Last year, CMU had an athletic budget of $27 million, of which $20 million was a subsidy. That means they only generated about $7m from athletic operations. That is beyond pathetic, nowhere near what should be FBS standards.

Their attendance is bad. At a 2018 game they announced 10,000 official attendance and a reporter counted 255 people in one half of the stands. It's an embarrassing excuse for FBS program.

Everyone fudges their reported attendance numbers. The better measure is ticket sales, how much money they actually collect from selling tickets. And it's not much. Per the USA Today database, CMU's annual ticket revenue (for all sports) is very FCS-ish. In 2018, their annual revenue from ticket sales was $632,604, second-lowest in the MAC. (Kent State was lowest at $467,408.) That would be about average, maybe even below average, in FCS football conferences like the Big Sky or MVFC.

But, as long as CMU actually complies with the rules -- including having the required numbers of varsity sports -- and as long as they find the money somewhere, they can stay in FBS. They won't be kicked out if they are in compliance with the rules.

In 2018 their ticket sales were bad and the team was bad, but in in 2017 when they went 8-5 their sales were almost 900k. Granted, that still wouldn't be that out of place in the FCS, W&M made 960k in 2018 on ticket sales and we had 4 wins.

CMU makes more from the MAC TV deal than they do in football sales, and there isn't really a good FCS conference for them to go to, they would spend more in travel in the FCS than they would in the MAC.

(05-20-2020 12:10 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 12:03 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:04 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 10:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Deny the waiver.

If CMU can't uphold FBS standards, they need to drop down, where they belong.

They've been in the Top 25 and have just put in a new FB facility. Long tradition of competitiveness in MAC FB.

This is like saying Troy should drop down.

Last year, CMU had an athletic budget of $27 million, of which $20 million was a subsidy. That means they only generated about $7m from athletic operations. That is beyond pathetic, nowhere near what should be FBS standards.

Their attendance is bad. At a 2018 game they announced 10,000 official attendance and a reporter counted 255 people in one half of the stands. It's an embarrassing excuse for FBS program.

Everyone fudges their reported attendance numbers. The better measure is ticket sales, how much money they actually collect from selling tickets. And it's not much. Per the USA Today database, CMU's annual ticket revenue (for all sports) is very FCS-ish. In 2018, their annual revenue from ticket sales was $632,604, second-lowest in the MAC. (Kent State was lowest at $467,408.) That would be about average, maybe even below average, in FCS football conferences like the Big Sky or MVFC.

But, as long as CMU actually complies with the rules -- including having the required numbers of varsity sports -- and as long as they find the money somewhere, they can stay in FBS. They won't be kicked out if they are in compliance with the rules.

2018 CMU went 1-11. A 6-6 or 7-5 season for the average MAC team usually sees better attendance then that. Central Michigan is historically a strong MAC team.

Every off-season the MAC team that finished at the bottom of the standings gets attacked for having FBS or football period. This season it's Akron. Many times it's Eastern Michigan.

Attendance is only marginally more in better seasons. CMU was 6-6 and went to a bowl in 2016. Their ticket revenue for all sports for that year was $724,471.

(05-20-2020 11:54 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:49 AM)Cyniclone Wrote:  If CMU is going below the mandate, and unlike Chicago State, they do so knowing the consequences, then it means:
a) They have it on strong authority that the NCAA is going to slacken on sport minimums,
b) They have it on weak authority and they're hoping it works out,
c) They have another men's sport in mind that they can shove in there but they want to see if they can get away with one too few men's sports first,
d) They're not only willing but maybe even planning to drop to D2 but need to go through the rigamarole of asking for a waiver so they have additional cover when they announce a dropdown.

I think something between B and C is the correct option. The AD has said he's aware they're below the minimum, and is asking for a petition, but they have a backup plan in mind.

That could well be, but that would be another case of the tail wagging the dog in college athletics. Think about it: Instead of adding a sport based on student participation, community interest, regional popularity or even a rich alum giving a butt-ton of money to make it happen, a school is adding one because it's the cheapest way to compliance, but they really don't want to.

So imagine trying to recruit, say, a golf coach to start a program. It's like, "well, we'd like to see you do well of course, but you and your team are here to fulfill a legal obligation. The NCAA didn't give us a waiver, so here you are." Imagine being told, in essence, your sport is our second-best option behind literally nothing. Not exactly the circumstances to give birth to excellence.

(05-20-2020 12:03 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:04 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 10:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Deny the waiver.

If CMU can't uphold FBS standards, they need to drop down, where they belong.

They've been in the Top 25 and have just put in a new FB facility. Long tradition of competitiveness in MAC FB.

This is like saying Troy should drop down.

Last year, CMU had an athletic budget of $27 million, of which $20 million was a subsidy. That means they only generated about $7m from athletic operations. That is beyond pathetic, nowhere near what should be FBS standards.

Their attendance is bad. At a 2018 game they announced 10,000 official attendance and a reporter counted 255 people in one half of the stands. It's an embarrassing excuse for FBS program.

Everyone fudges their reported attendance numbers. The better measure is ticket sales, how much money they actually collect from selling tickets. And it's not much. Per the USA Today database, CMU's annual ticket revenue (for all sports) is very FCS-ish. In 2018, their annual revenue from ticket sales was $632,604, second-lowest in the MAC. (Kent State was lowest at $467,408.) That would be about average, maybe even below average, in FCS football conferences like the Big Sky or MVFC.

Donors are a larger factor than ticket sales.

Seat licenses for example go to the donor club and not the ticket. For the better seats it becomes half or more of the cost. That is how my season tickets work at a MAC stadium.

It's a tough situation, but given the economic situation right now, I think the waiver should apply to everyone.

I have no issue with CMU doing this. Are they knowingly breaking the rules? Yes. Are the rules reasonable under the current economic climate resulting from a mixture of global politics and government mandated shutdowns? No.

If it was simply a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions that led them to this point then I would see it differently.

(05-20-2020 11:19 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:04 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 10:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Deny the waiver.

If CMU can't uphold FBS standards, they need to drop down, where they belong.

They've been in the Top 25 and have just put in a new FB facility. Long tradition of competitiveness in MAC FB.

This is like saying Troy should drop down.

Last year, CMU had an athletic budget of $27 million, of which $20 million was a subsidy. That means they only generated about $7m from athletic operations. That is beyond pathetic, nowhere near what should be FBS standards.

Their attendance is bad. At a 2018 game they announced 10,000 official attendance and a reporter counted 255 people in one half of the stands. It's an embarrassing excuse for FBS program.

Numbers are far from empirical. You are basing all off data from a source or two.

Those budget numbers are gross expenditure factoring in the cash value of scholarships.

Remember, the cash value of scholarships might add up to about $4 million and that's if we adopt the absurd notion that there is zero marginal cost to giving room, board, and tuition to 85 people. That's a far cry from the $20m subsidy amount.

Face it - all of the Michigan directionals are joke FBS programs.

(05-20-2020 12:32 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:54 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:49 AM)Cyniclone Wrote:  If CMU is going below the mandate, and unlike Chicago State, they do so knowing the consequences, then it means:
a) They have it on strong authority that the NCAA is going to slacken on sport minimums,
b) They have it on weak authority and they're hoping it works out,
c) They have another men's sport in mind that they can shove in there but they want to see if they can get away with one too few men's sports first,
d) They're not only willing but maybe even planning to drop to D2 but need to go through the rigamarole of asking for a waiver so they have additional cover when they announce a dropdown.

I think something between B and C is the correct option. The AD has said he's aware they're below the minimum, and is asking for a petition, but they have a backup plan in mind.

That could well be, but that would be another case of the tail wagging the dog in college athletics. Think about it: Instead of adding a sport based on student participation, community interest, regional popularity or even a rich alum giving a butt-ton of money to make it happen, a school is adding one because it's the cheapest way to compliance, but they really don't want to.

So imagine trying to recruit, say, a golf coach to start a program. It's like, "well, we'd like to see you do well of course, but you and your team are here to fulfill a legal obligation. The NCAA didn't give us a waiver, so here you are." Imagine being told, in essence, your sport is our second-best option behind literally nothing. Not exactly the circumstances to give birth to excellence.

Someone is still bound to jump on that coaching opportunity as a resume builder.

(05-20-2020 02:49 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 12:03 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:04 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 10:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Deny the waiver.

If CMU can't uphold FBS standards, they need to drop down, where they belong.

They've been in the Top 25 and have just put in a new FB facility. Long tradition of competitiveness in MAC FB.

This is like saying Troy should drop down.

Last year, CMU had an athletic budget of $27 million, of which $20 million was a subsidy. That means they only generated about $7m from athletic operations. That is beyond pathetic, nowhere near what should be FBS standards.

Their attendance is bad. At a 2018 game they announced 10,000 official attendance and a reporter counted 255 people in one half of the stands. It's an embarrassing excuse for FBS program.

Everyone fudges their reported attendance numbers. The better measure is ticket sales, how much money they actually collect from selling tickets. And it's not much. Per the USA Today database, CMU's annual ticket revenue (for all sports) is very FCS-ish. In 2018, their annual revenue from ticket sales was $632,604, second-lowest in the MAC. (Kent State was lowest at $467,408.) That would be about average, maybe even below average, in FCS football conferences like the Big Sky or MVFC.

Donors are a larger factor than ticket sales.

Combining donations and ticket sales into one number is another way to look at it. Even by MAC standards, CMU lags in donations plus ticket sales. By that metric -- donations plus ticket sales -- they would still be about average in the Big Sky, and behind every school in the American and Mountain West.

(05-20-2020 12:00 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 10:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Deny the waiver.

If CMU can't uphold FBS standards, they need to drop down, where they belong.

To be fair---they cant afford it because they were ordered by the state to shut down operations.

Eh, that's an indirect thing so IMO not excusable. What I mean is, if you can't comply well that's truly outside your control and you can't reasonably be held responsible for such things. E.g., if the State of Michigan says football games this fall must be played in empty stadiums, then it is wrong to hold the attendance standard against Michigan schools this fall. It's impossible for the schools to comply with that, which defeats the whole purpose of the standard to begin with, as it is supposed to be a measure of fan support, and can't serve as such under the circumstances.

In contrast, while the State did order CMU to shut down, which cost it money, it did not order CMU to shut down a men's sport. It could have saved that money somewhere else, but chose to do so in a way that violates the rule.

To me, that means no waiver.

(05-20-2020 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  It's a tough situation, but given the economic situation right now, I think the waiver should apply to everyone.

I have no issue with CMU doing this. Are they knowingly breaking the rules? Yes. Are the rules reasonable under the current economic climate resulting from a mixture of global politics and government mandated shutdowns? No.

If it was simply a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions that led them to this point then I would see it differently.

I would say it was a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions - mostly along the lines of continuing to run a football program that loses many millions each year. IIRC, they just spent $32 million on some football complex thing for a program that their own fans will not support.

(05-20-2020 03:05 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Remember, the cash value of scholarships might add up to about $4 million and that's if we adopt the absurd notion that there is zero marginal cost to giving room, board, and tuition to 85 people. That's a far cry from the $20m subsidy amount.

Face it - all of the Michigan directionals are joke FBS programs.

One of them is 3 years removed from playing in the Cotton Bowl.

(05-20-2020 03:05 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:19 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:04 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 10:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Deny the waiver.

If CMU can't uphold FBS standards, they need to drop down, where they belong.

They've been in the Top 25 and have just put in a new FB facility. Long tradition of competitiveness in MAC FB.

This is like saying Troy should drop down.

Last year, CMU had an athletic budget of $27 million, of which $20 million was a subsidy. That means they only generated about $7m from athletic operations. That is beyond pathetic, nowhere near what should be FBS standards.

Their attendance is bad. At a 2018 game they announced 10,000 official attendance and a reporter counted 255 people in one half of the stands. It's an embarrassing excuse for FBS program.

Numbers are far from empirical. You are basing all off data from a source or two.

Those budget numbers are gross expenditure factoring in the cash value of scholarships.

Remember, the cash value of scholarships might add up to about $4 million and that's if we adopt the absurd notion that there is zero marginal cost to giving room, board, and tuition to 85 people. That's a far cry from the $20m subsidy amount.

Face it - all of the Michigan directionals are joke FBS programs.

Central Michigan athletic student aid was $6.4 million in 2019.

Operating expenses are $4.3 million. Coaching salaries $4.9 million. Recruiting about 600k. The actual cost of running CMU athletics is about $10 million.

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/

(05-20-2020 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  It's a tough situation, but given the economic situation right now, I think the waiver should apply to everyone.

I have no issue with CMU doing this. Are they knowingly breaking the rules? Yes. Are the rules reasonable under the current economic climate resulting from a mixture of global politics and government mandated shutdowns? No.

If it was simply a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions that led them to this point then I would see it differently.

But is CMU talking about dropping below the Division I standards for 2020-21, or permanently? Dropping a sport is usually a permanent decision.

(05-20-2020 03:21 PM)Inkblot Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 03:05 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Remember, the cash value of scholarships might add up to about $4 million and that's if we adopt the absurd notion that there is zero marginal cost to giving room, board, and tuition to 85 people. That's a far cry from the $20m subsidy amount.

Face it - all of the Michigan directionals are joke FBS programs.

One of them is 3 years removed from playing in the Cotton Bowl.

And brought 40k fans to the MAC title game too. No joke at all.

And the other’s defeated a Big Ten team 3 years in a row.

(05-20-2020 03:21 PM)Inkblot Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 03:05 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Remember, the cash value of scholarships might add up to about $4 million and that's if we adopt the absurd notion that there is zero marginal cost to giving room, board, and tuition to 85 people. That's a far cry from the $20m subsidy amount.

Face it - all of the Michigan directionals are joke FBS programs.

One of them is 3 years removed from playing in the Cotton Bowl.

WMU has about a $36m athletic budget, of which about $26m is subsidized. That is ridonculous operating loss by any standard.

Heck, Grand Valley State has half of the subsidy at Division II, and its enrollment has grown past that of WMU. The notion of "front porch" effects is a big joke up there.

https://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/201...parin.html

(05-20-2020 03:21 PM)Inkblot Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 03:05 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Remember, the cash value of scholarships might add up to about $4 million and that's if we adopt the absurd notion that there is zero marginal cost to giving room, board, and tuition to 85 people. That's a far cry from the $20m subsidy amount.

Face it - all of the Michigan directionals are joke FBS programs.

One of them is 3 years removed from playing in the Cotton Bowl.

And still can't put 20,000 people in the stands for games.