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CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
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Bronco'14 Offline
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Post: #61
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-20-2020 05:51 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 05:42 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 05:29 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 04:54 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  In regards to the WMU Cotton Bowl season posts: There is a market for good MAC football teams. Usually that's considered 9 wins but we've seen there's an even bigger market for 10+ wins. Hence, why teams stay FBS.

People aren't gonna line up for 1-11 Akron: They will for a 9-3 Akron.

It's all about winning, and that's especially true in the MAC.

(05-20-2020 04:08 PM)Wedge Wrote:  The data says otherwise.

The CMU stadium capacity is listed at 30,255. Even if the average ticket price was only $20/ticket, that would mean ticket sales of more than $600,000 just for that one football game. We know they didn't make that much money on one football game because their total ticket sales, total amount for all sporting events at the entire university, has been well below $800,000 a year for each of the last several years.

The 2019 game at WMU had reported attendance, which is always inflated, of 20,476 in a stadium that seats 30,200. The 2018 game at CMU had reported attendance of 10,097 in a stadium that seats 30,255.
I was at the 2019 & 2018 games. The 2019 attendance seemed about right, maybe even a little under-counted. The 2018 in-person attendance was definitely lower than 10K, but I suspect many no-shows during the pouring rain/snow/sleet (MAC attendance is heavily correlated w/ weather) & a home team that would end up 1-11. Also, one poster was saying the game's an excuse for UM/MSU fans to visit their WMU/CMU friends: the 2018 WMU/CMU game was the exact same time as the MSU/UM game. We're still trying to figure out why the MAC scheduled it when they did, but otherwise that's usually a factor too.

Ohio had its night games early in the season taken away by ESPN+ and had to play its rivalry game against Miami U. on Black Friday. This has hurt the conference efforts to build fan support.

Inevitably the crowds will not come for a bad team. Donors won't show up to make a statement the coach has to go.

The realistic upside on crowds for the MAC is to have a really good team that can pack it in at Detroit or Cleveland. SRO capacity atmospheres in a 25,000 to 30,000 seat stadium for a big game.

20,000 is a solid crowd in a MAC stadium. Its a solid crowd for any sport but P5 and NFL football.

The problem is, not everybody can be a winner. The conference games, the bulk of the schedule, have to sum to .500. As for OOC, with MAC teams playing body-bag games for cash against P5 teams, most of those will be losses. And no donor will be fooled by a 8-4 record achieved by beating two FCS teams.

MAC teams don't play multiple FCS teams at home. I think its happened out of necessity a couple of times but that is about it.
The nice thing about the MAC is the parity. Because the schools all operate with similar athletic budgets, they can't hold on to good coaches. So that brings them back down to par & another team takes it's place. Not everyone can be a winner the same season, but you will be at some point in this Conference.

Most MAC fans won't hype up last year's Champion team. We're talking the usual MAC champ who gets 9 or more wins or so.
05-20-2020 06:01 PM
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Kit-Cat Offline
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Post: #62
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
MAC schools could do better with better time windows.

-Early season night games when its hot.
-Home game against P5 competition.
-Parents weekend.
-Homecoming.
-Rivalry weekend.

The key is to fit all this in before the midweek games start.

Winning is 50%. Good time windows is 50%
05-20-2020 06:30 PM
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Post: #63
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-20-2020 06:30 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  MAC schools could do better with better time windows.

-Early season night games when its hot.
-Home game against P5 competition.
-Parents weekend.
-Homecoming.
-Rivalry weekend.

The key is to fit all this in before the midweek games start.

Winning is 50%. Good time windows is 50%

P5 teams are not just doing that just for expenses. They will want some of the gate.
05-20-2020 09:17 PM
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Post: #64
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-20-2020 03:21 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  It's a tough situation, but given the economic situation right now, I think the waiver should apply to everyone.

I have no issue with CMU doing this. Are they knowingly breaking the rules? Yes. Are the rules reasonable under the current economic climate resulting from a mixture of global politics and government mandated shutdowns? No.

If it was simply a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions that led them to this point then I would see it differently.

I would say it was a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions - mostly along the lines of continuing to run a football program that loses many millions each year. IIRC, they just spent $32 million on some football complex thing for a program that their own fans will not support.

Poor decisions in the long term? I don't disagree, but the current economic climate was unpredictable.

With regard to the point about CMU being a bad FBS program, I completely agree, but what's our threshold?

The financials at the vast majority of G5 schools are not impressive. It's true that the MAC as a whole is riding in the margins, but there's no order of magnitude between that league and the typical G5 school.

To me, the waiver is not a bad idea as long as it's given a hard expiration date and as long as it applies to everyone.
05-20-2020 11:17 PM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #65
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-20-2020 05:51 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 05:42 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  The problem is, not everybody can be a winner. The conference games, the bulk of the schedule, have to sum to .500. As for OOC, with MAC teams playing body-bag games for cash against P5 teams, most of those will be losses. And no donor will be fooled by a 8-4 record achieved by beating two FCS teams.

MAC teams don't play multiple FCS teams at home. I think its happened out of necessity a couple of times but that is about it.

Ahh that's right - because the MAC teams would have to be the one doing the paying, LOL.

07-coffee3
05-21-2020 08:57 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #66
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-21-2020 08:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 05:51 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 05:42 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  The problem is, not everybody can be a winner. The conference games, the bulk of the schedule, have to sum to .500. As for OOC, with MAC teams playing body-bag games for cash against P5 teams, most of those will be losses. And no donor will be fooled by a 8-4 record achieved by beating two FCS teams.


MAC teams don't play multiple FCS teams at home. I think its happened out of necessity a couple of times but that is about it.

Ahh that's right - because the MAC teams would have to be the one doing the paying, LOL.

07-coffee3

I missed that the first time it went around. I think you underestimate the willingness of donors to be fooled.
05-21-2020 08:59 AM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #67
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-20-2020 11:17 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 03:21 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  It's a tough situation, but given the economic situation right now, I think the waiver should apply to everyone.

I have no issue with CMU doing this. Are they knowingly breaking the rules? Yes. Are the rules reasonable under the current economic climate resulting from a mixture of global politics and government mandated shutdowns? No.

If it was simply a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions that led them to this point then I would see it differently.

I would say it was a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions - mostly along the lines of continuing to run a football program that loses many millions each year. IIRC, they just spent $32 million on some football complex thing for a program that their own fans will not support.

Poor decisions in the long term? I don't disagree, but the current economic climate was unpredictable.

With regard to the point about CMU being a bad FBS program, I completely agree, but what's our threshold?

I think the threshold should be something like a *hard* average of 20,000 fans a game at football, independently audited, with no room for tricks like Akron buying their own tickets, giveaways, etc. There have to be actual sales of tickets at market price, and you have to maintain that. If you fall below for more than two years running, out of FBS.

As for the waivers, I say "no". The cuts can be made in other ways, say a % across the board, that do not involve closing sports.
05-21-2020 09:01 AM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #68
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-21-2020 08:59 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-21-2020 08:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 05:51 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 05:42 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  The problem is, not everybody can be a winner. The conference games, the bulk of the schedule, have to sum to .500. As for OOC, with MAC teams playing body-bag games for cash against P5 teams, most of those will be losses. And no donor will be fooled by a 8-4 record achieved by beating two FCS teams.


MAC teams don't play multiple FCS teams at home. I think its happened out of necessity a couple of times but that is about it.

Ahh that's right - because the MAC teams would have to be the one doing the paying, LOL.

07-coffee3

I missed that the first time it went around. I think you underestimate the willingness of donors to be fooled.

No question there's a lot of denial in college athletics. I mean, MOO scheduled Tennessee Tech for their Homecoming game, and they aren't alone, schools do that all the time to guarantee wins and make the alumni feel good even though it was a joke win.

But the broader point was, if the MAC football model depends on 9-win or better seasons, it's an unsustainable model, because not everyone can win 9 games. Heck last year, IIRC, no MAC teams won 9 games. I don't think more than 2 have in the past five years.
(This post was last modified: 05-21-2020 09:06 AM by quo vadis.)
05-21-2020 09:05 AM
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Post: #69
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-20-2020 11:17 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 03:21 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  It's a tough situation, but given the economic situation right now, I think the waiver should apply to everyone.

I have no issue with CMU doing this. Are they knowingly breaking the rules? Yes. Are the rules reasonable under the current economic climate resulting from a mixture of global politics and government mandated shutdowns? No.

If it was simply a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions that led them to this point then I would see it differently.

I would say it was a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions - mostly along the lines of continuing to run a football program that loses many millions each year. IIRC, they just spent $32 million on some football complex thing for a program that their own fans will not support.

Poor decisions in the long term? I don't disagree, but the current economic climate was unpredictable.

With regard to the point about CMU being a bad FBS program, I completely agree, but what's our threshold?

The financials at the vast majority of G5 schools are not impressive. It's true that the MAC as a whole is riding in the margins, but there's no order of magnitude between that league and the typical G5 school.

To me, the waiver is not a bad idea as long as it's given a hard expiration date and as long as it applies to everyone.

CMU has traditionally been one of the stronger football programs in the MAC. Kent, Akron, Eastern Michigan and Ohio have historically been the weak ones. Ball St. has been weak over the last decade or so.
05-21-2020 10:20 AM
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Post: #70
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-21-2020 10:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 11:17 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 03:21 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  It's a tough situation, but given the economic situation right now, I think the waiver should apply to everyone.

I have no issue with CMU doing this. Are they knowingly breaking the rules? Yes. Are the rules reasonable under the current economic climate resulting from a mixture of global politics and government mandated shutdowns? No.

If it was simply a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions that led them to this point then I would see it differently.

I would say it was a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions - mostly along the lines of continuing to run a football program that loses many millions each year. IIRC, they just spent $32 million on some football complex thing for a program that their own fans will not support.

Poor decisions in the long term? I don't disagree, but the current economic climate was unpredictable.

With regard to the point about CMU being a bad FBS program, I completely agree, but what's our threshold?

The financials at the vast majority of G5 schools are not impressive. It's true that the MAC as a whole is riding in the margins, but there's no order of magnitude between that league and the typical G5 school.

To me, the waiver is not a bad idea as long as it's given a hard expiration date and as long as it applies to everyone.

CMU has traditionally been one of the stronger football programs in the MAC. Kent, Akron, Eastern Michigan and Ohio have historically been the weak ones. Ball St. has been weak over the last decade or so.

Thing is, programs exist in real time not the past. E.g., Sears is a historically strong retailer - but presently an almost bankrupt one.
05-21-2020 10:37 AM
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NickleCity Offline
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Post: #71
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-21-2020 09:01 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 11:17 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 03:21 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  It's a tough situation, but given the economic situation right now, I think the waiver should apply to everyone.

I have no issue with CMU doing this. Are they knowingly breaking the rules? Yes. Are the rules reasonable under the current economic climate resulting from a mixture of global politics and government mandated shutdowns? No.

If it was simply a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions that led them to this point then I would see it differently.

I would say it was a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions - mostly along the lines of continuing to run a football program that loses many millions each year. IIRC, they just spent $32 million on some football complex thing for a program that their own fans will not support.

Poor decisions in the long term? I don't disagree, but the current economic climate was unpredictable.

With regard to the point about CMU being a bad FBS program, I completely agree, but what's our threshold?

I think the threshold should be something like a *hard* average of 20,000 fans a game at football, independently audited, with no room for tricks like Akron buying their own tickets, giveaways, etc. There have to be actual sales of tickets at market price, and you have to maintain that. If you fall below for more than two years running, out of FBS.

As for the waivers, I say "no". The cuts can be made in other ways, say a % across the board, that do not involve closing sports.

YES! This. The BIG10 wont let the MAC drop to FCS. Force them instead of making the NCAA overlook the attendance thing to put their money down, play the road games, hell, bus in the fans if they have to!
05-21-2020 11:18 AM
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Post: #72
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-20-2020 05:51 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  MAC teams don't play multiple FCS teams at home. I think its happened out of necessity a couple of times but that is about it.
If you play multiple FCS schools and, hypothetically finish 6-6 with your 6th win on the final game of the season, you can't go to an ESPN Bowl Filmed In Front Of a Live Studio Audience and beat Utah State 51-41 for your first bowl win ever.

That is, hypothetically.
(This post was last modified: 05-21-2020 11:33 AM by BruceMcF.)
05-21-2020 11:28 AM
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Post: #73
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-20-2020 03:05 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Face it - all of the Michigan directionals are joke FBS programs.

Says the fan of an underwhelming directional G5 school with delusions of P5 grandeur:

https://csnbbs.com/thread-899524-page-7.html

Really, the only justification I can see for G5 schools having football is if there is a plan to make it to the P5. That's why I support USF football. I know it loses over $10 million a year, but if we get in to a P5 conference, it will have been worth it.

https://csnbbs.com/thread-899524-page-9.html

These $20m a year subsidies are an investment towards making the P5. Because if we do get a P5 invite, then in raw dollars-sense terms it will soon become "worth it". We'll start cashing $30m media checks and the money we spent as a subsidizing G5 those several years could be recouped, with interest plus more.

I'm not saying we don't have our own serious financial issues, but you might want to put out the fire in your own house before attempting to blowtorch ours.

Getting lectured by a USF fan about fiscal irresponsibility is like getting scolded by JPP for playing with fireworks.
05-21-2020 11:52 AM
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Post: #74
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
East Carolina dropping sports. ESPN reporting 40% or so of the P5 in trouble.

Yet everyone's picking on the MAC cellar dwellers.
05-21-2020 12:20 PM
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Post: #75
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-21-2020 10:37 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-21-2020 10:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 11:17 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 03:21 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  It's a tough situation, but given the economic situation right now, I think the waiver should apply to everyone.

I have no issue with CMU doing this. Are they knowingly breaking the rules? Yes. Are the rules reasonable under the current economic climate resulting from a mixture of global politics and government mandated shutdowns? No.

If it was simply a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions that led them to this point then I would see it differently.

I would say it was a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions - mostly along the lines of continuing to run a football program that loses many millions each year. IIRC, they just spent $32 million on some football complex thing for a program that their own fans will not support.

Poor decisions in the long term? I don't disagree, but the current economic climate was unpredictable.

With regard to the point about CMU being a bad FBS program, I completely agree, but what's our threshold?

The financials at the vast majority of G5 schools are not impressive. It's true that the MAC as a whole is riding in the margins, but there's no order of magnitude between that league and the typical G5 school.

To me, the waiver is not a bad idea as long as it's given a hard expiration date and as long as it applies to everyone.

CMU has traditionally been one of the stronger football programs in the MAC. Kent, Akron, Eastern Michigan and Ohio have historically been the weak ones. Ball St. has been weak over the last decade or so.

Thing is, programs exist in real time not the past. E.g., Sears is a historically strong retailer - but presently an almost bankrupt one.

History matters. Otherwise, why would Notre Dame have continued to generate so much interest despite 20 years of mediocrity from the end of the Holtz era to a few years into the Kelly era.
05-21-2020 12:43 PM
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Post: #76
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-21-2020 09:01 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 11:17 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 03:21 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-20-2020 02:56 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  It's a tough situation, but given the economic situation right now, I think the waiver should apply to everyone.

I have no issue with CMU doing this. Are they knowingly breaking the rules? Yes. Are the rules reasonable under the current economic climate resulting from a mixture of global politics and government mandated shutdowns? No.

If it was simply a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions that led them to this point then I would see it differently.

I would say it was a matter of CMU making poor financial decisions - mostly along the lines of continuing to run a football program that loses many millions each year. IIRC, they just spent $32 million on some football complex thing for a program that their own fans will not support.

Poor decisions in the long term? I don't disagree, but the current economic climate was unpredictable.

With regard to the point about CMU being a bad FBS program, I completely agree, but what's our threshold?

I think the threshold should be something like a *hard* average of 20,000 fans a game at football, independently audited, with no room for tricks like Akron buying their own tickets, giveaways, etc. There have to be actual sales of tickets at market price, and you have to maintain that. If you fall below for more than two years running, out of FBS.

As for the waivers, I say "no". The cuts can be made in other ways, say a % across the board, that do not involve closing sports.

I'd be fine with going higher than that. 30K in average attendance along with the other stipulations you're suggesting. With that said, until things like that are codified then it's an academic discussion.

You could make cuts across the board, but with a small athletic department that probably still means coaches and support staff getting fired. Is there any substantial difference between that and discontinuing a sport?

Point being, the notion of how many sports a school has to offer being the dividing line seems arbitrary. Does it really matter if one school offers 10 and another 30? More accurately, does it matter as far as what sort of football program such a school is capable of producing? There's a tangential relationship, sure, but should that be the barometer by which we determine what division you play football in? Especially in circumstances where the global economy is tanking? Seems like straining gnats.

I'm fine with the waiver as long as there's a hard expiration because there are still rules on the books to deal with such matters. If there's no hard expiration then I would vote 'no' as well. With that said, if I were king for a day, some of these rules wouldn't exist in the first place.

When it comes to FBS, most of the G5 schools are not in the same class with the P5. So when someone asks me should CMU be forced out then I have to ask why shouldn't most of them be forced out? If we're not drawing hard lines to ensure FBS is synonymous with the best of the best then I don't see anything productive being accomplished with singling out a school like CMU.

If their constituency wants to throw good money after bad then that's their decision. it appears, however, to be the same decision that most G5 constituencies are making.
05-21-2020 12:50 PM
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Post: #77
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
I think one thing to consider is where else are the MAC schools gonna go? Any FCS conference would require more travel and get them far less press/media coverage.

Youngstown is on an island in the MVFC, there's no FCS schools in Michigan, and then a lot of the Midwest schools are in the non scholarship Pioneer League, which wouldn't make sense for the MAC schools either.

If schools wanted to drop, I guess NIU could fit pretty well in the MVFC, and Buffalo could maybe go to the CAA? Otherwise there aren't good FCS homes for the MAC programs.
05-21-2020 01:00 PM
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Post: #78
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-21-2020 12:20 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  East Carolina dropping sports. ESPN reporting 40% or so of the P5 in trouble.

Yet everyone's picking on the MAC cellar dwellers.

I'm not. The MAC and Big West used to share a bowl game together, way back when.

Nobody is cutting the AAC slack. So far in 2020 two members have cut a combined five sports. A flagship is returning home to the Big East. Not a good look for their "p6" claim.
05-21-2020 01:01 PM
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Post: #79
RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-21-2020 01:00 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  I think one thing to consider is where else are the MAC schools gonna go? Any FCS conference would require more travel and get them far less press/media coverage.

Youngstown is on an island in the MVFC, there's no FCS schools in Michigan, and then a lot of the Midwest schools are in the non scholarship Pioneer League, which wouldn't make sense for the MAC schools either.

If schools wanted to drop, I guess NIU could fit pretty well in the MVFC, and Buffalo could maybe go to the CAA? Otherwise there aren't good FCS homes for the MAC programs.

Some Ohio fans have suggested the CAA as the FCS alternative.

But I think when you dig into the history, numbers and facilities involved the MAC does indeed belong in the G5. Unlike the others support is driven by rivalry games, campus weekends and conference tournaments vs. everyday fans.
05-21-2020 01:17 PM
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RE: CMU Drops Under D1 FBS Mandated Sport Sponsorship Levels
(05-21-2020 01:17 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(05-21-2020 01:00 PM)TDenverFan Wrote:  I think one thing to consider is where else are the MAC schools gonna go? Any FCS conference would require more travel and get them far less press/media coverage.

Youngstown is on an island in the MVFC, there's no FCS schools in Michigan, and then a lot of the Midwest schools are in the non scholarship Pioneer League, which wouldn't make sense for the MAC schools either.

If schools wanted to drop, I guess NIU could fit pretty well in the MVFC, and Buffalo could maybe go to the CAA? Otherwise there aren't good FCS homes for the MAC programs.

Some Ohio fans have suggested the CAA as the FCS alternative.

But I think when you dig into the history, numbers and facilities involved the MAC does indeed belong in the G5. Unlike the others support is driven by rivalry games, campus weekends and conference tournaments vs. everyday fans.

Ohio could also possibly work in the CAA, as could Miami OH, but the CAA would be more travel and less fan interest than the MAC would be.
05-21-2020 01:38 PM
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