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East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
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dbackjon Online
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Post: #21
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
(05-19-2020 01:36 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(05-19-2020 01:14 PM)chidave Wrote:  Baseball is very important to ECU, they averaged 3,400 fans in 2019. It would be a cataclysmic event if they cancel it.

A quality baseball team is one of the few ways a school like ECU can really make a name for themselves. Bad idea to cut it.

With that said, sports like:

Swimming and diving, tennis, and golf don't tend to accomplish much.

Like someone said, you can't really get rid of track because it counts as multiple sports for all practical purposes. Softball, if performed at a high level, can more or less accomplish what a good baseball team can. They're both TV sports now.

Women's soccer is another one that could be sacrificed.

Another option could be to reduce the scholarship expenditures without cutting too many sports. You've got to abide by Title IX, but you don't have to give a full ride to everyone when it's allowed.


That doesn't seem to be the best move, IMHO - you are still paying all the coaches, support staff, maintaining facilities, AND probably putting out a worse product.

Cut a sport completely so you can focus on the sports you retain.
05-19-2020 01:50 PM
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GTFletch Offline
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Post: #22
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
hmmmm so UCONN is not the only one who is struggling with the Great AAC and the GREAT AAC Media deal.... The only diff between UCONN and ECU is that UCONN could jump to the Big East and go Indy in FB while ECU is straight up F****ed.... It is going to get real interesting once we learn how much these production facilities really cost and the actually cost of these ESPN+ productions along with the reneog deal with ESPN.....
05-19-2020 02:04 PM
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AssyrianDuke Offline
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Post: #23
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
Was ECU part of the Great Conference Descrambling thread?
05-19-2020 02:06 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #24
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
(05-19-2020 02:06 PM)AssyrianDuke Wrote:  Was ECU part of the Great Conference Descrambling thread?

No, that only looked at C-USA, SBC, Liberty, JMU, and NMSU
05-19-2020 02:40 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #25
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
(05-19-2020 01:35 PM)chidave Wrote:  
(05-19-2020 01:29 PM)3BNole Wrote:  Yeah there’s no way ECU cuts baseball, it’s by far their most consistently successful and well known sport. As a college baseball fan, when I think of ECU I think of their baseball program.

Their basketball team averaged 3,900 by comparison, https://ecupirates.com/sports/mens-baske...s/2019-20. I think it would be a hard decision if someone forced them to cancel one or the other. They'll make the cuts elsewhere.

So you can't cut any of the high cost sports. All of which says there really isn't any way for ECU to "fix" what is a systemic deficit. Their only realistic option is to live with it and underwrite the athletic program with an even larger institutional subsidy. I understand why they fought so hard to get into their only chance at an AQ conference. Sadly, it hasn't worked out the way they had hoped.
05-19-2020 03:35 PM
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Statefan Offline
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Post: #26
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
Baseball and Football are the two sacred cows at ECU.

ECU has had internal governance problems for the better part of the last decade and it's tied into their hospital. ECU is not as screwed up as MD or Connecticut but they continue to suffer from bad decisions made 15-20 years ago.

ECU sports exist in the amount of space that VT, UNC, NC State, and South Carolina are or have been willing to give them. The ECU football program has been hurting UNC and NC State football off an on for the last 30 years, and several of those most recently VT have made decision that hurt ECU. Football is ECU's life blood.

Shutting that down hurts sports down the line. Gender is also an issue. Like Carolina, ECU has a real gender issue with the alumni base and right now it's about 60/40 women on ECU's campus which is great for finding a girl, but not for sustaining the football program.

It's all very complicated but the athletic money issue is really the tip of their iceberg.
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2020 03:59 PM by Statefan.)
05-19-2020 03:45 PM
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HatterFan Offline
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Post: #27
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
assuming they're not going to pull a CMU and say "eff the rules"**, ECU has 9 men's and 11 women's teams. They can can cut up to 4, in any combination except if they do whack 4, they can't all be men's teams.

I think men's swimming will go. They won the AAC championship, but with UConn gone, there will only be 3 men's programs left by this summer - ECU, SMU and Cincinnati. The tennis programs play off campus, so I assume they must pay some sort of rental fee to use that facility. Gonna guess they drop both. If there's a fourth cut, I wager men's golf. The women's golf program at ECU is much more successful than the men have been.

**although that puts me in mind of Keira Knightley's character in Pirates of the Caribbean - "hang the Pirate's Code...they're more like guidelines, anyway." Pun intended!
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2020 03:57 PM by HatterFan.)
05-19-2020 03:57 PM
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Statefan Offline
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Post: #28
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
(05-19-2020 03:57 PM)HatterFan Wrote:  assuming they're not going to pull a CMU and say "eff the rules"**, ECU has 9 men's and 11 women's teams. They can can cut up to 4, in any combination except if they do whack 4, they can't all be men's teams.

I think men's swimming will go. They won the AAC championship, but with UConn gone, there will only be 3 men's programs left by this summer - ECU, SMU and Cincinnati. The tennis programs play off campus, so I assume they must pay some sort of rental fee to use that facility. Gonna guess they drop both. If there's a fourth cut, I wager men's golf. The women's golf program at ECU is much more successful than the men have been.

**although that puts me in mind of Keira Knightley's character in Pirates of the Caribbean - "hang the Pirate's Code...they're more like guidelines, anyway." Pun intended!

ECU can't buck the rules because the UNC General Administration will not allow that. That's part of the problem, they are fully beholden to the UNC System.
05-19-2020 04:00 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #29
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
(05-19-2020 03:45 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Baseball and Football are the two sacred cows at ECU.

So, serious question. I think I know the answer, but I can't readily find where it is written.

Is it possible for a school to be in D-I and not play men's basketball? That's an expensive sport that ECU has never been successful at and probably never will. And if it's not allowed, does anybody know what the reasoning behind that is?
05-19-2020 05:32 PM
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johnintx Online
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Post: #30
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
(05-19-2020 05:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-19-2020 03:45 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Baseball and Football are the two sacred cows at ECU.

So, serious question. I think I know the answer, but I can't readily find where it is written.

Is it possible for a school to be in D-I and not play men's basketball? That's an expensive sport that ECU has never been successful at and probably never will. And if it's not allowed, does anybody know what the reasoning behind that is?

I presume that men's basketball is not required by the NCAA. The only requirement is two men's team sports. Football and baseball would fill this requirement.

Miami went without men's basketball from 1971-1985. Tulane did away with men's basketball for three years after the point shaving scandal of 1985.

It's hard to imagine, however, a conference that would allow a member to not have men's basketball. It's the second most visible sport, and one that is normally cheaper and easier to maintain than football.
05-19-2020 05:54 PM
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Cyniclone Offline
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Post: #31
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
(05-19-2020 05:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-19-2020 03:45 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Baseball and Football are the two sacred cows at ECU.

So, serious question. I think I know the answer, but I can't readily find where it is written.

Is it possible for a school to be in D-I and not play men's basketball? That's an expensive sport that ECU has never been successful at and probably never will. And if it's not allowed, does anybody know what the reasoning behind that is?

It might be possible but it's very rare. At least per the Wikipedia page, the Division 1 schools that no longer offer basketball also dropped all intercollegiate sports (U of Baltimore, NE Illinois, Morris Brown, U.S. International).
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2020 07:00 PM by Cyniclone.)
05-19-2020 06:35 PM
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johnbragg Online
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Post: #32
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
(05-19-2020 05:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-19-2020 03:45 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Baseball and Football are the two sacred cows at ECU.

So, serious question. I think I know the answer, but I can't readily find where it is written.

Is it possible for a school to be in D-I and not play men's basketball? That's an expensive sport that ECU has never been successful at and probably never will. And if it's not allowed, does anybody know what the reasoning behind that is?

I don't think I have time to chase references through the NCAA Division I manual tonight, but I think the NCAA defines your "home conference" as the one you play mens' and womens' basketball in.

That rule must have come in since Miami and Tulane were Division I without mens basketball.

EDIT: Maybe I do have time. I'm not 100% sure, but I think the provision applies to conferences, not to schools. To be a Division I member conference, you have to have 7 member schools that play MBB and WBB in your conference. But if it's cool with the conference, and you have an otherwise Division I compatible setup, it seems to pass NCAA muster.
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2020 07:07 PM by johnbragg.)
05-19-2020 06:51 PM
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PirateTreasureNC Online
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Post: #33
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
(05-19-2020 11:01 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-19-2020 10:49 AM)Cyniclone Wrote:  They just started women's lacrosse, I can't imagine they'd give up on it already.

ECU's budget deficits didn't just start with COVID. So why did they add lacrosse in the first place?

A lot of ECU people want to know that as well.

There are lots of questions on a lot of stuff, and even less answers. There is a huge political answer that involves the AD at the time, the chancellor at the time, the makeup of the BoT at the time, and UNC BoG at the time along with political power players in the area.

That AD is gone. That chancellor is gone. Some of the BoT and BoG are now gone.

************

Pointing anyone here that wishes to see news on the matter
https://247sports.com/college/east-carolina/
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2020 07:13 PM by PirateTreasureNC.)
05-19-2020 07:11 PM
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Chappy Online
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Post: #34
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
(05-19-2020 05:54 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(05-19-2020 05:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-19-2020 03:45 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Baseball and Football are the two sacred cows at ECU.

So, serious question. I think I know the answer, but I can't readily find where it is written.

Is it possible for a school to be in D-I and not play men's basketball? That's an expensive sport that ECU has never been successful at and probably never will. And if it's not allowed, does anybody know what the reasoning behind that is?

I presume that men's basketball is not required by the NCAA. The only requirement is two men's team sports. Football and baseball would fill this requirement.

Miami went without men's basketball from 1971-1985. Tulane did away with men's basketball for three years after the point shaving scandal of 1985.

It's hard to imagine, however, a conference that would allow a member to not have men's basketball. It's the second most visible sport, and one that is normally cheaper and easier to maintain than football.

I'm sure our conference would love for us to stop playing basketball and go to a full round robin schedule without us. They'd rather us be good and not suck, but that hasn't happened so...
05-19-2020 09:40 PM
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Indiana Bones Offline
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Post: #35
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
Leadership deficiencies have been remedied. ECU is fixing football right now. Once that happens and a few sports that don't matter are dropped then everything will work itself out just fine (also once the virus becomes less of an issue).
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2020 09:54 AM by Indiana Bones.)
05-19-2020 10:00 PM
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Post: #36
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
ECU is one of those schools that really deserves a shot at a higher echelon although it hasn't worked out to this point.

With that said, if they ever want to get into a Power league then dropping basketball is a bad idea. Too many P5 programs make money on basketball even if the revenue generated isn't that significant compared to football.

They need to cut a few minor sports, focus on what has the potential to draw attention, and then work on drawing students from other markets. They won't be first choice among students in NC, but UNC and NC State won't take everyone. Grab what you can in-state and aggressively recruit the country.

Basically, they need a bigger donor base because a P5 league isn't going to call anytime soon.
05-20-2020 12:27 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #37
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
(05-19-2020 05:32 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-19-2020 03:45 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Baseball and Football are the two sacred cows at ECU.

So, serious question. I think I know the answer, but I can't readily find where it is written.

Is it possible for a school to be in D-I and not play men's basketball?

For a Division 1 conference member, in rummaging around the by-laws, it LOOKS LIKE (I may have overlooked something) it is in effect no, but it is indirect ...

... a multi-sport conference must sponsor basketball, while a school must sponsor a minimum number of team sports, and typically the conference won't let you be a member unless you play basketball in the conference. Certainly if ECU wanted to be a Division 1 FBS school that did not play basketball, it would have to go independent, since none of the FBS conferences would let you join without playing basketball.

So drop back to a FB-only affiliate in the AAC and play the balance of their sports as a Division 1 independent (a reverse-mirror-image of Notre Dame).

Now IIRC, to do that you would HAVE TO play three men's team sports ... the ability to only sponsor two men's teams sports if explicitly if they are FB & Basketball ... so in dropping Basketball, they would have to add ANOTHER men's team sport, which would substantially cut down any savings on MBB travel if it's a team sport where they have to go scratching (as an independent) for some affiliate position in some conference.

And the same people who would yell about baseball being dropped would yell about baseball withdrawing from the AAC, which is a pretty good baseball conference.

Easier to sacrifice Men & Women's cross country (which saves one or more coaching positions within the track coaching system, and saves on travel to Fall cross-country tri-meets, which would often be M&W anyway) and "study" cutting some of the cheap to sponsor sports which likely partly pay their own way with tuition payments of their walk-ons and quarter ride students.

The "extra" women's team sports are de-facto costs of all of those FB scholarships under Title IX. And unlike Akron's restarted baseball team, which seems like it will have exactly as many scholarships to hand out as Akron baseball supporters are able to endow (making the "tuition subsidy" an actual net contributor to the university education budget), if the Pirates have a competitive baseball team, they'll be giving out more than the minimum number of men's baseball scholarships, which could well be why they started up women's lacrosse in the "Northeastern private school girls" enrollment magnet it is normally used for.
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2020 01:10 AM by BruceMcF.)
05-20-2020 12:52 AM
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Post: #38
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
We sponsor 20 teams the most of any program in the American.
Except men’s and women’s swimming and diving and men’s and women’s tennis to be cut.
This gives us 16 programs the minimum for FBS and the same as UCF
05-20-2020 02:12 AM
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Carolina_Low_Country Offline
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Post: #39
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
(05-19-2020 02:04 PM)GTFletch Wrote:  hmmmm so UCONN is not the only one who is struggling with the Great AAC and the GREAT AAC Media deal.... The only diff between UCONN and ECU is that UCONN could jump to the Big East and go Indy in FB while ECU is straight up F****ed.... It is going to get real interesting once we learn how much these production facilities really cost and the actually cost of these ESPN+ productions along with the reneog deal with ESPN.....

Not true I budget is $15M more than it used to be we just had a AD who spent money like Congress and I don’t even mean using money on facilities etc. He hired too many people for the athletic dept and too many of his friends from NIU and gave them all a large salary and spent a ton on travel and entertainment. On top of that he killed our football program by firing a good coach and replaced with a terrible coach. We have just got to get back to being lean and mean like we were during Terry Holland’s regime.
05-20-2020 02:16 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #40
RE: East Carolina on the Clock: Will Cut One or More Sports
(05-20-2020 02:16 AM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  
(05-19-2020 02:04 PM)GTFletch Wrote:  hmmmm so UCONN is not the only one who is struggling with the Great AAC and the GREAT AAC Media deal.... The only diff between UCONN and ECU is that UCONN could jump to the Big East and go Indy in FB while ECU is straight up F****ed.... It is going to get real interesting once we learn how much these production facilities really cost and the actually cost of these ESPN+ productions along with the reneog deal with ESPN.....

Not true I budget is $15M more than it used to be we just had a AD who spent money like Congress and I don’t even mean using money on facilities etc. He hired too many people for the athletic dept and too many of his friends from NIU and gave them all a large salary and spent a ton on travel and entertainment. On top of that he killed our football program by firing a good coach and replaced with a terrible coach. We have just got to get back to being lean and mean like we were during Terry Holland’s regime.

It does help during a budget crisis if there is actually fat to cut, so you don't have to start the process by cutting into spending that contributes to program success.
05-20-2020 02:35 AM
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