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On CBSSN vs ESPN+
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DawgNBama Offline
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Post: #1
On CBSSN vs ESPN+
For the ODU fans that are soo beholden to ESPN:

(05-11-2020 03:54 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Dave Benedict, with what the UConn athletic department has acheived in the past 12 months, has arguably been one of the top-performing ADs in the country.

Many were quick to label independence for UConn Football as a death sentence (not to mention its move to the Big East as a lateral/step-down move) - a choice that would undoubtedly force the school to disband or even de-emphasize its football program to FCS levels. In that time frame, Benedict has several seasons worth of opponents lined up, reacquired regional programs like Syracuse and Boston College to the schedule (with UMass and Army are annual matchups), gained P5 matchups at home against Duke, UNC, Purdue and NC State, lined-up buy games (over $1 million each annually) at Clemson, Michigan, Tennessee and Ohio State, and, now, found a new and better home (CBS Sports Network has 50 million+ subscribers) for its games than it was originally to have had (ESPN+ has under 10 million subscribers) - all while substantially cutting down travel costs (which was easily over $7 million annually - almost identical amount it was to be making under the new AAC TV deal) and associating its top athletics brand (basketball) with an identifiable and geographic power basketball conference.
05-17-2020 11:21 PM
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UAB Schnauzer Offline
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RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
ODU is not UCONN. ODU does not have four Men's Basketball championships in the last 25 years. UCONN can get the good games in football because of how bad they are. Lower cartel teams are willing to play them home and home because they have a name brand and they know they will probably win both games. CBS Sports is not going to pay for ODU on its own.
05-18-2020 06:27 AM
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DawgNBama Offline
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RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
(05-18-2020 06:27 AM)UAB Schnauzer Wrote:  ODU is not UCONN. ODU does not have four Men's Basketball championships in the last 25 years. UCONN can get the good games in football because of how bad they are. Lower cartel teams are willing to play them home and home because they have a name brand and they know they will probably win both games. CBS Sports is not going to pay for ODU on its own.

Very good for stating the obvious, Captain Obvious!! I was simply pointing out how many people watched CBSSN vs how many watched ESPN+, the latter which ODU fans claim is far more popular than CBSSN. I was posting this to refute that belief.
05-18-2020 10:25 AM
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ghostofclt! Offline
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RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
clt says ESPN plus is preferred bc you get it included with directv
05-18-2020 02:03 PM
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Blue_Trombone Offline
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Post: #5
RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
I like ESPN+ cause I actually get to watch the games. No fool is going to willingly pay for CBSSN if they don't have cable.
05-18-2020 03:29 PM
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TTT Offline
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Post: #6
RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
People will argue "streaming is the future, games on ESPN+ can possibly be seen by anyone in the world w/ internet..."

While this statement might be true...I'd say a good indicator of how many people are actually watching our games on ESPN+ would be to look at the view counts of our games that happen to be on Facebook. I'd argue the same kinds of people who are buying ESPN+ and streaming through this platform are the exact same people who are watching the games on facebook.

Literally, every CUSA game I stuck my head into to watch this year....there were literally hundreds of people watching. Occasionally you would see 2k viewers if it was a good close game in the 4th quarter....but for the most part, it was in the hundreds. That's incredibly depressing. No one really cares about CUSA football...so at least try to have as many games as possible on a linear TV channel on Saturdays and an occasional Thursday (CBSSports and NFL Network).
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2020 03:55 PM by TTT.)
05-18-2020 03:53 PM
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Post: #7
RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
A couple of points:

1. Cord cutting is continuing apace, and my guess is it'll intensify even more during and after the pandemic. Who wants to drop $100-200 on cable if they absolutely don't have to? Yes, they're in a couple of streaming channel packages, but how many people are going to buy Hulu Live or Fubo for CBSSN? Also, there's no standalone option, near as I can tell, whereas ESPN+ is $5 a month or $12 packaged with Hulu and Disney+

2. Unless something's changed, CBSSN has no dedicated streaming. ESPN+ has tons of bandwidth. If the concern is trying to get the most eyeballs on your product, I can understand why CBSSN holds an advantage (though their ratings are too low to be measured by Nielsen). But if your concern is that you, dedicated school fan, want to see all your team's games, well, it's not as though ESPN+ is going to preempt you when they're showing dozens of events simultaneously. The raw number of subscribers isn't great but ESPN has a vested interest in making an online streaming service work.

This may be a false comparison but I'd rather see all of ODU's games on ESPN+ than maybe one or two on CBSSN and the rest on a patchwork quilt of digital sub-channels, digital sub-channels' websites, social media and telegrams.
05-18-2020 03:55 PM
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Cyniclone Online
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Post: #8
RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
(05-18-2020 03:53 PM)TTT Wrote:  People will argue "streaming is the future, games on ESPN+ can possibly be seen by anyone in the world w/ internet..."

While this statement might be true...I'd say a good indicator of how many people are actually watching our games on ESPN+ would be to look at the view counts of our games that happen to be on Facebook. I'd argue the same kinds of people who are buying ESPN+ and streaming through this platform are the exact same people who are watching the games on facebook.

Literally, every CUSA game I stuck my head into to watch this year....there were literally hundreds of people watching. Occasionally you would see 2k viewers if it was a good close game in the 4th quarter....but for the most part, it was in the hundreds.

That's true, it's hard to fudge the viewership numbers when they're staring at you on the site, but I don't know how many more are watching the game on CBSSN if you don't get viewer numbers. Plus you're not going to get minute-by-minute numbers on any of the networks, so who knows who's watching and when?
05-18-2020 03:56 PM
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TTT Offline
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RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
(05-18-2020 03:55 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  A couple of points:

1. Cord cutting is continuing apace, and my guess is it'll intensify even more during and after the pandemic. Who wants to drop $100-200 on cable if they absolutely don't have to? Yes, they're in a couple of streaming channel packages, but how many people are going to buy Hulu Live or Fubo for CBSSN? Also, there's no standalone option, near as I can tell, whereas ESPN+ is $5 a month or $12 packaged with Hulu and Disney+

2. Unless something's changed, CBSSN has no dedicated streaming. ESPN+ has tons of bandwidth. If the concern is trying to get the most eyeballs on your product, I can understand why CBSSN holds an advantage (though their ratings are too low to be measured by Nielsen). But if your concern is that you, dedicated school fan, want to see all your team's games, well, it's not as though ESPN+ is going to preempt you when they're showing dozens of events simultaneously. The raw number of subscribers isn't great but ESPN has a vested interest in making an online streaming service work.

This may be a false comparison but I'd rather see all of ODU's games on ESPN+ than maybe one or two on CBSSN and the rest on a patchwork quilt of digital sub-channels, digital sub-channels' websites, social media and telegrams.

You know what's bothered me about CBS Sports streaming? Unless something has changed but I know this past season...you could actually stream the CBSSports games on the CBS Sports app on your smart phone via your cable provider subscription...HOWEVER, you CANNOT stream CBSSports games on the CBSSports app on Firestick and Roku devices...
05-18-2020 03:58 PM
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TTT Offline
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RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
(05-18-2020 03:56 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 03:53 PM)TTT Wrote:  People will argue "streaming is the future, games on ESPN+ can possibly be seen by anyone in the world w/ internet..."

While this statement might be true...I'd say a good indicator of how many people are actually watching our games on ESPN+ would be to look at the view counts of our games that happen to be on Facebook. I'd argue the same kinds of people who are buying ESPN+ and streaming through this platform are the exact same people who are watching the games on facebook.

Literally, every CUSA game I stuck my head into to watch this year....there were literally hundreds of people watching. Occasionally you would see 2k viewers if it was a good close game in the 4th quarter....but for the most part, it was in the hundreds.

That's true, it's hard to fudge the viewership numbers when they're staring at you on the site, but I don't know how many more are watching the game on CBSSN if you don't get viewer numbers. Plus you're not going to get minute-by-minute numbers on any of the networks, so who knows who's watching and when?

I bet it's a CONSIDERABLE amount more...because you've gotta think about all the casual college football fans who happen to stumble across the game while browsing the menu...casual football fans don't browse facebook for football games. They also don't subscribe to ESPN+. They stick to linear TV.
05-18-2020 04:00 PM
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Blue_Trombone Offline
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Post: #11
RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
(05-18-2020 04:00 PM)TTT Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 03:56 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 03:53 PM)TTT Wrote:  People will argue "streaming is the future, games on ESPN+ can possibly be seen by anyone in the world w/ internet..."

While this statement might be true...I'd say a good indicator of how many people are actually watching our games on ESPN+ would be to look at the view counts of our games that happen to be on Facebook. I'd argue the same kinds of people who are buying ESPN+ and streaming through this platform are the exact same people who are watching the games on facebook.

Literally, every CUSA game I stuck my head into to watch this year....there were literally hundreds of people watching. Occasionally you would see 2k viewers if it was a good close game in the 4th quarter....but for the most part, it was in the hundreds.

That's true, it's hard to fudge the viewership numbers when they're staring at you on the site, but I don't know how many more are watching the game on CBSSN if you don't get viewer numbers. Plus you're not going to get minute-by-minute numbers on any of the networks, so who knows who's watching and when?

I bet it's a CONSIDERABLE amount more...because you've gotta think about all the casual college football fans who happen to stumble across the game while browsing the menu...casual football fans don't browse facebook for football games. They also don't subscribe to ESPN+. They stick to linear TV.

Do casual football fans have CBSSN? I know there's a million-billion cable providers out there and I haven't had cable for years but does ESPN 1 and 2 get sold on the same package as CBSSN normally? Or does CBSSN get lumped in with like Fox Sports and Root and whatnot? Cause the casual sports fan that we're talking about probably doesn't have the latter.

EDIT: So I just looked at my local provider and found that ESPN 1&2, NBC Sports Network, Mid-Atlantic Sports Network (MASN), Fox Sports 1 and 2, Golf Channel, ACC Network, and MASN-2 are all part of the same package. CBS SportsNet can either be added as a part of the "Ultimate" package or as an add-on sports package with channels like the NFL Network, ESPNU, ESPNNEWS, NBAtv, MLB Network, NHL Network and a few others.
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2020 04:34 PM by Blue_Trombone.)
05-18-2020 04:22 PM
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Cyniclone Online
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Post: #12
RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
(05-18-2020 04:00 PM)TTT Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 03:56 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 03:53 PM)TTT Wrote:  People will argue "streaming is the future, games on ESPN+ can possibly be seen by anyone in the world w/ internet..."

While this statement might be true...I'd say a good indicator of how many people are actually watching our games on ESPN+ would be to look at the view counts of our games that happen to be on Facebook. I'd argue the same kinds of people who are buying ESPN+ and streaming through this platform are the exact same people who are watching the games on facebook.

Literally, every CUSA game I stuck my head into to watch this year....there were literally hundreds of people watching. Occasionally you would see 2k viewers if it was a good close game in the 4th quarter....but for the most part, it was in the hundreds.

That's true, it's hard to fudge the viewership numbers when they're staring at you on the site, but I don't know how many more are watching the game on CBSSN if you don't get viewer numbers. Plus you're not going to get minute-by-minute numbers on any of the networks, so who knows who's watching and when?

I bet it's a CONSIDERABLE amount more...because you've gotta think about all the casual college football fans who happen to stumble across the game while browsing the menu...casual football fans don't browse facebook for football games. They also don't subscribe to ESPN+. They stick to linear TV.

But unless those fans are so casual that they can't discern between teams and just stay on the first game they land on, I can't imagine too many people stopping at, I dunno, WKU-Rice when power schools are playing a channel or two over. Unless they have CBSSN on the digital tier, in which case they probably never even get there after navigating the ESPN family and FS1.

Last year only two NFL Network games even garnered ratings: Army-UTSA (142K) and FIU-Middle Tennessee (25K). And NFL Network has better carriage than CBSSN (71 million). And CBSSN, for whatever reason, is not included in the ratings, so who knows how many people are watching?

My preference is to make it easier for dedicated fans to watch my school's games over hoping a nebulous audience of casual/unattached fans might stumble on one of them, even if the latter has a theoretically higher cap. I understand if you're on the side of the better potential, though.
05-18-2020 04:24 PM
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MUsince96 Offline
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Post: #13
RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
(05-18-2020 03:58 PM)TTT Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 03:55 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  A couple of points:

1. Cord cutting is continuing apace, and my guess is it'll intensify even more during and after the pandemic. Who wants to drop $100-200 on cable if they absolutely don't have to? Yes, they're in a couple of streaming channel packages, but how many people are going to buy Hulu Live or Fubo for CBSSN? Also, there's no standalone option, near as I can tell, whereas ESPN+ is $5 a month or $12 packaged with Hulu and Disney+

2. Unless something's changed, CBSSN has no dedicated streaming. ESPN+ has tons of bandwidth. If the concern is trying to get the most eyeballs on your product, I can understand why CBSSN holds an advantage (though their ratings are too low to be measured by Nielsen). But if your concern is that you, dedicated school fan, want to see all your team's games, well, it's not as though ESPN+ is going to preempt you when they're showing dozens of events simultaneously. The raw number of subscribers isn't great but ESPN has a vested interest in making an online streaming service work.

This may be a false comparison but I'd rather see all of ODU's games on ESPN+ than maybe one or two on CBSSN and the rest on a patchwork quilt of digital sub-channels, digital sub-channels' websites, social media and telegrams.

You know what's bothered me about CBS Sports streaming? Unless something has changed but I know this past season...you could actually stream the CBSSports games on the CBS Sports app on your smart phone via your cable provider subscription...HOWEVER, you CANNOT stream CBSSports games on the CBSSports app on Firestick and Roku devices...

You can now. CBS Sports HQ has an option to login with your cable/satellite info to watch CBSSN.
05-18-2020 04:27 PM
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MUsince96 Offline
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RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
(05-18-2020 04:22 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 04:00 PM)TTT Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 03:56 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 03:53 PM)TTT Wrote:  People will argue "streaming is the future, games on ESPN+ can possibly be seen by anyone in the world w/ internet..."

While this statement might be true...I'd say a good indicator of how many people are actually watching our games on ESPN+ would be to look at the view counts of our games that happen to be on Facebook. I'd argue the same kinds of people who are buying ESPN+ and streaming through this platform are the exact same people who are watching the games on facebook.

Literally, every CUSA game I stuck my head into to watch this year....there were literally hundreds of people watching. Occasionally you would see 2k viewers if it was a good close game in the 4th quarter....but for the most part, it was in the hundreds.

That's true, it's hard to fudge the viewership numbers when they're staring at you on the site, but I don't know how many more are watching the game on CBSSN if you don't get viewer numbers. Plus you're not going to get minute-by-minute numbers on any of the networks, so who knows who's watching and when?

I bet it's a CONSIDERABLE amount more...because you've gotta think about all the casual college football fans who happen to stumble across the game while browsing the menu...casual football fans don't browse facebook for football games. They also don't subscribe to ESPN+. They stick to linear TV.

Do casual football fans have CBSSN? I know there's a million-billion cable providers out there and I haven't had cable for years but does ESPN 1 and 2 get sold on the same package as CBSSN normally? Or does CBSSN get lumped in with like Fox Sports and Root and whatnot? Cause the casual sports fan that we're talking about probably doesn't have the latter.

On Suddenlink, ESPN, ESPN2, FS1, NBCSN, AT&T Sportsnet, Golf Channel, and Tennis Channel are all together on the expanded basic tier.

You can add the sports tier for $10 a month. That tier has more channels like CBSSN, NFL Network, FS2, ESPNU, ESPNews, SEC Network, Big Ten Network, ACC Network.
05-18-2020 04:33 PM
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Blue_Trombone Offline
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RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
(05-18-2020 04:33 PM)MUsince96 Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 04:22 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 04:00 PM)TTT Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 03:56 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 03:53 PM)TTT Wrote:  People will argue "streaming is the future, games on ESPN+ can possibly be seen by anyone in the world w/ internet..."

While this statement might be true...I'd say a good indicator of how many people are actually watching our games on ESPN+ would be to look at the view counts of our games that happen to be on Facebook. I'd argue the same kinds of people who are buying ESPN+ and streaming through this platform are the exact same people who are watching the games on facebook.

Literally, every CUSA game I stuck my head into to watch this year....there were literally hundreds of people watching. Occasionally you would see 2k viewers if it was a good close game in the 4th quarter....but for the most part, it was in the hundreds.

That's true, it's hard to fudge the viewership numbers when they're staring at you on the site, but I don't know how many more are watching the game on CBSSN if you don't get viewer numbers. Plus you're not going to get minute-by-minute numbers on any of the networks, so who knows who's watching and when?

I bet it's a CONSIDERABLE amount more...because you've gotta think about all the casual college football fans who happen to stumble across the game while browsing the menu...casual football fans don't browse facebook for football games. They also don't subscribe to ESPN+. They stick to linear TV.

Do casual football fans have CBSSN? I know there's a million-billion cable providers out there and I haven't had cable for years but does ESPN 1 and 2 get sold on the same package as CBSSN normally? Or does CBSSN get lumped in with like Fox Sports and Root and whatnot? Cause the casual sports fan that we're talking about probably doesn't have the latter.

On Suddenlink, ESPN, ESPN2, FS1, NBCSN, AT&T Sportsnet, Golf Channel, and Tennis Channel are all together on the expanded basic tier.

You can add the sports tier for $10 a month. That tier has more channels like CBSSN, NFL Network, FS2, ESPNU, ESPNews, SEC Network, Big Ten Network, ACC Network.

Okay, I guess $10 extra ain't too bad (maybe?). I still say that presents an extra barrier of entry for your Walmart T-Shirt type of casual fans.
05-18-2020 04:36 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
(05-18-2020 03:55 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  A couple of points:

1. Cord cutting is continuing apace, and my guess is it'll intensify even more during and after the pandemic. Who wants to drop $100-200 on cable if they absolutely don't have to? Yes, they're in a couple of streaming channel packages, but how many people are going to buy Hulu Live or Fubo for CBSSN? Also, there's no standalone option, near as I can tell, whereas ESPN+ is $5 a month or $12 packaged with Hulu and Disney+

2. Unless something's changed, CBSSN has no dedicated streaming. ESPN+ has tons of bandwidth. If the concern is trying to get the most eyeballs on your product, I can understand why CBSSN holds an advantage (though their ratings are too low to be measured by Nielsen). But if your concern is that you, dedicated school fan, want to see all your team's games, well, it's not as though ESPN+ is going to preempt you when they're showing dozens of events simultaneously. The raw number of subscribers isn't great but ESPN has a vested interest in making an online streaming service work.

This may be a false comparison but I'd rather see all of ODU's games on ESPN+ than maybe one or two on CBSSN and the rest on a patchwork quilt of digital sub-channels, digital sub-channels' websites, social media and telegrams.

Speaking of cord cutting---Ive seen ESPN drop from almost 100 million subscribers to around 80 million. CBS-Sports was talking about having 55 million subscriber back in 2014 or so. Cord cutting is cord cutting. Zero chance CBS-Sports still has 55 million subscribers. Can find no recent subscriber data----but I'd guess its suffered a very similar 20% haircut from cord cutting and is probably sitting around 45 million subscribers these days.

To me, one of the biggest synergies a network is failing to capitalize on is over at CBS. Why they dont include CBS-Sports in their streaming "CBS-All Access" package I'll never know. Seems like an cheap way to pick up a ton of new subscribers who would very likely stick around even after football season is over. Some of those sports streamers are bound to get hooked on some of the other content available there.
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2020 05:13 PM by Attackcoog.)
05-18-2020 05:10 PM
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Post: #17
RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
CBS All-Access will soon be rebranded to include more content. No mention of CBSSN included, but it does mention numerous other ViacomCBS networks.

https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/viacomc...234600528/
05-18-2020 05:46 PM
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otown Offline
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RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
(05-18-2020 06:27 AM)UAB Schnauzer Wrote:  ODU is not UCONN. ODU does not have four Men's Basketball championships in the last 25 years. UCONN can get the good games in football because of how bad they are. Lower cartel teams are willing to play them home and home because they have a name brand and they know they will probably win both games. CBS Sports is not going to pay for ODU on its own.

That is not really an apples to orange comparison. The ESPN+ subscribers are more likely sports fans and will be watching games. The 55+ million subscribers (do not know if factual, but will take your word on the actual number), most of them are not watching CBSSN............. the factual piece of info on this is simple, I do not think they even have enough viewership to be rated. So that 55 million number means nothing.
05-18-2020 06:36 PM
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FriscoDawg Offline
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Post: #19
RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
(05-18-2020 06:36 PM)otown Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 06:27 AM)UAB Schnauzer Wrote:  ODU is not UCONN. ODU does not have four Men's Basketball championships in the last 25 years. UCONN can get the good games in football because of how bad they are. Lower cartel teams are willing to play them home and home because they have a name brand and they know they will probably win both games. CBS Sports is not going to pay for ODU on its own.

That is not really an apples to orange comparison. The ESPN+ subscribers are more likely sports fans and will be watching games. The 55+ million subscribers (do not know if factual, but will take your word on the actual number), most of them are not watching CBSSN............. the factual piece of info on this is simple, I do not think they even have enough viewership to be rated. So that 55 million number means nothing.
ESPN is a must-carry service on all providers as a-la-carte subscriptions are not allowed. CBSSN is sold on other tiers by many providers.

So not all 20 million ESPN subscribers who cut the cord had CBSSN in the first place. Assuming the same rate of cord-cutting across all subscribers, if ESPN is down from 100 million to 80 million it stands to reason that CBSSN is probably down from 55 million to something more like 44 million. So the gap in "potential viewers" (that is factored into ad rates that a network can charge) has likely narrowed between ESPN and CBSSN by around 9 million.

And that narrowing of the potential viewers gap may be understated because hard-core sports fans don't cut the cord to lose ESPN. Those hard-core sports fans are also the ones more likely to subscribe to a tier with CBSSN if available.
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2020 10:56 PM by FriscoDawg.)
05-18-2020 10:55 PM
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Post: #20
RE: On CBSSN vs ESPN+
(05-18-2020 04:00 PM)TTT Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 03:56 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 03:53 PM)TTT Wrote:  People will argue "streaming is the future, games on ESPN+ can possibly be seen by anyone in the world w/ internet..."

While this statement might be true...I'd say a good indicator of how many people are actually watching our games on ESPN+ would be to look at the view counts of our games that happen to be on Facebook. I'd argue the same kinds of people who are buying ESPN+ and streaming through this platform are the exact same people who are watching the games on facebook.

Literally, every CUSA game I stuck my head into to watch this year....there were literally hundreds of people watching. Occasionally you would see 2k viewers if it was a good close game in the 4th quarter....but for the most part, it was in the hundreds.

That's true, it's hard to fudge the viewership numbers when they're staring at you on the site, but I don't know how many more are watching the game on CBSSN if you don't get viewer numbers. Plus you're not going to get minute-by-minute numbers on any of the networks, so who knows who's watching and when?

I bet it's a CONSIDERABLE amount more...because you've gotta think about all the casual college football fans who happen to stumble across the game while browsing the menu...casual football fans don't browse facebook for football games. They also don't subscribe to ESPN+. They stick to linear TV.


Try 20x more at least
ESPN + has 3.5 million subscribers versus NFLN which has 70 million subscribers

Like you said no one is browsing ESPN+. A good proxy are those facebook games 1-2k And the NFLN is 20x better broadcast.

Now you see why UConn said take the ESPN+ AAC contract and shove it
05-18-2020 11:52 PM
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