(05-17-2020 01:07 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  In a never going to happen dream world for NMSU, the MWC expands and then splits:

Western Pacific Conference:

Hawaii, San Jose St, Fresno St, San Diego St, UNLV, Nevada, Boise St, Utah St, Montana, Montana St

Mountain West Conference:

Wyoming, Colorado St, Air Force, UNM, NMSU, UTEP, UTSA, Texas St, UNT, Rice

My Texas State fandom would be all over that conference.

Geographic rivals in the other Texas Schools. 10 teams to maximize CFP out.

Wild thought:

MWC goes to 16 to save some travel costs:

Quad 1: Hawaii, SJSU, Fresno St, SDSU
Quad 2: Nevada, UNLV, Boise St, Utah St
Quad 3: Wyoming, Colorado St, AFA, UNM
Quad 4: NMSU, UTEP, UTSA, Texas St

Incarnate Word is in San Antonio and would bring another "Marketz" and is close enough for both Tarleton and UTRGV.

However their facilities are terrible and they do not show up to events.

(05-17-2020 07:49 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Wild thought:

MWC goes to 16 to save some travel costs:

Quad 1: Hawaii, SJSU, Fresno St, SDSU
Quad 2: Nevada, UNLV, Boise St, Utah St
Quad 3: Wyoming, Colorado St, AFA, UNM
Quad 4: NMSU, UTEP, UTSA, Texas St

Made sense until that last quad. Just make triads?

(05-17-2020 07:22 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  

(05-17-2020 06:28 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  West Texas A&M is also a former FBS school and could fit the group you mentioned above.
Dixie State is expanding their stadium to be at 15,000. That is another core.
Montana and Montana State Would rather join the MWC instead.

I do not think Weber State would be a candidate which would give them three schools in Utah.

You left out the three Southland schools that looked into going to D1 which one of them had a campus visit from the WAC officials in the past.
Lamar
Sam Houston State
SFAU

West Texas A&M and Dixie State are D2s that would have to wait years to transition to FBS. Also the funding to expand Dixie State’s stadium capacity to 15,000 hasn’t materialized.

Montana and Montana State aren’t on the radar screen for the MWC. If the MWC should need to add a member in the future it will likely invite a school in Texas.

I actually didn’t look at Weber State until after considering the exact same Southland schools you list. But in the end I went with the numbers. Weber State has a bigger stadium and had better attendance and on-field performance in 2019 than all three of them.

West Texas A&M just opened a new stadium seating 8,500 and can accommodate 12,000 with standing room and berm seating; it is expandable to 14,000 total. They spent millions to build the stadium on campus to help increase student attendance and improve the atmosphere. It's laughable to suggest that they would return to playing games at Kimbrough, a stadium WTAMU no longer owns, just to move to D1.

Calling WTAMU a "former FBS school" is quite a stretch. It was in the University Division/D1 and football was placed in D1-AA when that division was formed. The Missouri Valley Conference was a hybrid conference when it dropped sponsorship of football as a championship sport with NCAA division I programs (Tulsa and Wichita State) and NCAA division I-AA programs (Drake, Illinois State, Indiana State, Southern Illinois, and West Texas State).

(05-17-2020 09:20 PM)AZcats Wrote:  

(05-17-2020 07:22 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  

(05-17-2020 06:28 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  West Texas A&M is also a former FBS school and could fit the group you mentioned above.
Dixie State is expanding their stadium to be at 15,000. That is another core.
Montana and Montana State Would rather join the MWC instead.

I do not think Weber State would be a candidate which would give them three schools in Utah.

You left out the three Southland schools that looked into going to D1 which one of them had a campus visit from the WAC officials in the past.
Lamar
Sam Houston State
SFAU

West Texas A&M and Dixie State are D2s that would have to wait years to transition to FBS. Also the funding to expand Dixie State’s stadium capacity to 15,000 hasn’t materialized.

Montana and Montana State aren’t on the radar screen for the MWC. If the MWC should need to add a member in the future it will likely invite a school in Texas.

I actually didn’t look at Weber State until after considering the exact same Southland schools you list. But in the end I went with the numbers. Weber State has a bigger stadium and had better attendance and on-field performance in 2019 than all three of them.

West Texas A&M just opened a new stadium seating 8,500 and can accommodate 12,000 with standing room and berm seating; it is expandable to 14,000 total. They spent millions to build the stadium on campus to help increase student attendance and improve the atmosphere. It's laughable to suggest that they would return to playing games at Kimbrough, a stadium WTAMU no longer owns, just to move to D1.

Calling WTAMU a "former FBS school" is quite a stretch. It was in the University Division/D1 and football was placed in D1-AA when that division was formed. The Missouri Valley Conference was a hybrid conference when it dropped sponsorship of football as a championship sport with NCAA division I programs (Tulsa and Wichita State) and NCAA division I-AA programs (Drake, Illinois State, Indiana State, Southern Illinois, and West Texas State).

Good old West Texas State. I remember their great rb Pistol Pete Pedro running all over my Texas Western Miners many years ago. Very talented.

(05-17-2020 07:22 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  

(05-17-2020 06:28 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  West Texas A&M is also a former FBS school and could fit the group you mentioned above.
Dixie State is expanding their stadium to be at 15,000. That is another core.
Montana and Montana State Would rather join the MWC instead.

I do not think Weber State would be a candidate which would give them three schools in Utah.

You left out the three Southland schools that looked into going to D1 which one of them had a campus visit from the WAC officials in the past.
Lamar
Sam Houston State
SFAU

West Texas A&M and Dixie State are D2s that would have to wait years to transition to FBS. Also the funding to expand Dixie State’s stadium capacity to 15,000 hasn’t materialized.

Montana and Montana State aren’t on the radar screen for the MWC. If the MWC should need to add a member in the future it will likely invite a school in Texas.

I actually didn’t look at Weber State until after considering the exact same Southland schools you list. But in the end I went with the numbers. Weber State has a bigger stadium and had better attendance and on-field performance in 2019 than all three of them.

Actually, Weber State did not have better attendance than Stephen F. Austin which averaged 9,884 in 2019 in spite of a 3-8 record.

Attendance does need to improve for all four schools. Weber State's attendance average was less than 300 per game more than Lamar's. In contrast, while Weber State was having a banner season, Lamar had an extremely disappointing season following a trip to the FCS playoffs the previous year. The 2019 performance resulted in a head coaching change for Lamar. In addition, with the possible exception of the homecoming game, Tropical Storm Imelda's 40+" rainfall in Jefferson County probably didn't help Lamar's attendance in the latter part of the season. I imagine many people were more worried about recovering from flooded homes than attending a football game.

Link - NWS Tropical Storm Imelda report
(Note: Fannett, Texas with a storm high of 44.29" of rainfall from Imelda, is 14.5 miles from Lamar University per Googe Maps. Lamar's surrounding area had rainfall totals >30" from the storm.)

As far as stadium capacity, the three Southland Conference universities not mentioned in the article have stadiums with considerable berm seating capacity. Unlike some universities, none of the three include berm capacity in their official capacity number. (Based on images, it looks like the non-permanent seating portion of eastern hillside at Weber State's Stewart Stadium could be used for additional seating. I couldnt tell from pictures. Based on the stadium record attendance of 17,593 vs capacity of 17,500, it looks like that portion of the hillside is not used for overflow seating. It does look like it would provide a pretty cost effective stadium expansion to just extend east side seating toward the goalline areas, though.)

Here are the 2019 attendance averages and stadium sizes for the three Southland Conference Texas schools not mentioned in the Forgotten5 article compared to Weber State.

Weber State - 7,438/17,500 (Record attendance - 17,593)
Lamar - 7,173/16,000 (18,000-20,000 if berm seating is included - record attendance 18,500)
Stephen F. Austin - 9,884/14,475 (record attendance in the same configuration is 23,617)
Sam Houston State - 4,880/12,593 (record attendance 16,148)

Note: The season averages for Sam Houston State and Stephen F. Austin do not include attendance of >24,000 at the annual "Battle of the Piney Woods" game at Houston's NRG Stadium. Although the game is a great tradition for both schools, it probably negatively affects optimum home game averages. The best attended "home game" is not included in the home attendance figures for either school.

A quick note: Montana State's official stadium capacity is 17,777 per Wikipedia. I think the stadium's record attendance of 21,527 was used in the comparison pasted below.

Copy and pasted from HawaiiMongoose post above:

Quote:As I've posted elsewhere I think WAC FBS football is a pipe dream, but if it could ever happen it would require NMSU and UTEP to be joined by a lineup more like this:

Montana (past FBS/WAC candidate) - 22,545/25,203
Montana State (past FBS/WAC candidate) - 17,281/21,527
Sacramento State (past FBS/WAC candidate) - 10,950/21,195
Weber State (finished 2019 ranked #3 in FCS) - 7,438/17,500
Idaho (former FBS) - 6,885/16,000
UTRGV (new direct-to-FBS program like UTSA)

End of copy and paste

If we are not going to include any of the above Southland schools because of last year's attendance and stadium size, why is Idaho on the list other than as a former FBS member? Their last year's attendance was 6,885 (less than that of both Stephen F. Austin and Lamar). Their stadium size is 16,000, the same as Lamar's except Idaho has no unofficial berm additional seating capacity.

If we are looking at any required expansions, Lamar's stadium is designed for a future capacity of 28,000. A lot of the pre-buildout expansion work was done during the 2009-10 complete stadium renovation. In other words, a lot of any required Provost-Umphrey Stadium expansion costs including walkways, concessions, and restrooms have already been incurred. Is that the case with other stadiums?

(05-17-2020 07:54 PM)chrisattsu Wrote:  Incarnate Word is in San Antonio and would bring another "Marketz" and is close enough for both Tarleton and UTRGV.

However their facilities are terrible and they do not show up to events.

Incarnate Word's on campus facilities are undersized. On a short-term basis, UIW might be able to use Alamo Stadium, located 1.2 miles from campus, for football. The Alamo Convocation Center is right next door to the stadium. The stadium has a 18,500 seating capacity per Wikipedia. The arena has a 4,000+ capacity. Both were renovated a little over 5 years ago.

Link - Alamo Stadium and Convocation Center

UTSA's football home, the Alamodome, might be another possibility. According to Google Maps, it is 5 miles from UIW's campus. (The dome is 18 miles away from UTSA's campus.)

If Boise St leaves MWC for AAC wouldn't it make since that NMSU replaces Boise State?

(05-19-2020 01:59 PM)GTFletch Wrote:  If Boise St leaves MWC for AAC wouldn't it make since that NMSU replaces Boise State?

No. You would be replacing one of the best G5 football programs with one of the worst in FBS.

(05-19-2020 02:13 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 01:59 PM)GTFletch Wrote:  If Boise St leaves MWC for AAC wouldn't it make since that NMSU replaces Boise State?

No. You would be replacing one of the best G5 football programs with one of the worst in FBS.

They're probably best available without going to FCS. They might go to UTEP first. The value of New Mexico State is that they might boost up basketball numbers while freeing up the Boise money. Would Hawaii football only still be better then adding both NMSU and UTEP for all sports?
MWC East
Air Force
Colorado State
Wyoming
New Mexico
New Mexico State
UTEP

MWC West
San Diego State
San Jose State
Fresno State
UNLV
Nevada
Utah State.

Could the extra basketball, baseball and the like lower the loss of Boise State?

(05-19-2020 05:33 PM)46566 Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 02:13 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 01:59 PM)GTFletch Wrote:  If Boise St leaves MWC for AAC wouldn't it make since that NMSU replaces Boise State?

No. You would be replacing one of the best G5 football programs with one of the worst in FBS.

They're probably best available without going to FCS. They might go to UTEP first. The value of New Mexico State is that they might boost up basketball numbers while freeing up the Boise money. Would Hawaii football only still be better then adding both NMSU and UTEP for all sports?
MWC East
Air Force
Colorado State
Wyoming
New Mexico
New Mexico State
UTEP

MWC West
San Diego State
San Jose State
Fresno State
UNLV
Nevada
Utah State.

Could the extra basketball, baseball and the like lower the loss of Boise State?

Such a move would represent a shift in emphasis for the MWC. They still aspire to be the top of the P5 and approach the G5, although that is a stretch. You make an interesting point that potential gains in basketball shares, and lowered payouts to the Broncs might make it a financially prudent move.

Why add NMSU (or UTEP) at all if you can just drop Hawaii football.

If Boise State were to leave the MWC (I don't know how that would actually happen), I think the conference just stands pat at 11 and gets a waiver for a CCG without round robin, like the AAC. Other than BYU, which isn't coming back, there's no plausible add that could make up for Boise. Especially not NMSU or UTEP. The other schools get back a proportional fraction of the extra money Boise received, as well as a slightly larger share of CFP money.

At that point, yes, they could part ways with Hawaii football to make it an even 10 FB schools and avoid the need for a waiver and an awkward bye-filled conference schedule. Retaining Hawaii FB is advantageous in that it offers the option of playing a 13th game, for 4 schools in the conference, anyway. Although that could be accomplished through OOC scheduling were Hawaii to go indy. But I'm not sure the conference would want to boot out Hawaii, nor would Hawaii necessarily want to leave.

(05-19-2020 06:36 PM)Crayton Wrote:  Why add NMSU (or UTEP) at all if you can just drop Hawaii football.

My thoughts was the TV deal is going to potentially take a bit and adding both UTEP and NMSU for all sports potentially limit the loss of Boise State by giving more basketball games in the deal. Right now Hawaii is football only. While the 13th game may be good for a money game or week 0 doors Hawaii really change the value of the tv contract? The only potential value is the 9 pm slot for TV.

Going to 10 in my mind and staying at 11 football and 10 everything else is a bad idea. Hawaii only helps in football and don't help in basketball. There is no basketball only school who wants in Gonzaga publicly stated no and BYU isn't coming back. The only basketball school that would help is St Mary's.(to fill in for Hawaii Olympic sports) Hopefully by adding both schools and dumpling Hawaii they keep the money they earn this tv control redone to pay 12 schools equally. The MWC would hope that NMSU and UTEP could pull a couple good seasons for basketball and at least win a few games in football for the next contract.

I think North Dakota State would be a great add to replace Boise State over either UTEP and New Mexico State right. NDSU basketball could improve then. NDSU would just dominate in football in the MWC right now.

(05-18-2020 10:16 AM)LUSportsFan Wrote:  Actually, Weber State did not have better attendance than Stephen F. Austin which averaged 9,884 in 2019 in spite of a 3-8 record.

...

If we are not going to include any of the above Southland schools because of last year's attendance and stadium size, why is Idaho on the list other than as a former FBS member?

Thank you for the correction on SFA's average home attendance. The figure according to the NCAA was actually 8,324. But that was still above Weber State.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_r...e/2019.pdf

I put Idaho on the list solely because it was previously an FBS program in the WAC and if the WAC wanted to revive football it wouldn't make sense to exclude the Vandals, especially if one assumes the conference would also be adding Montana and Montana State.

To be clear, I have nothing against Lamar and think it would another good candidate for an FBS WAC for all the reasons you describe. I just drew the line at the minimum 8 schools because the WAC would also have to accommodate the 6 incumbent non-football and FCS members (excluding Chicago State) and I doubt the conference would want to expand total membership above 14.

(05-19-2020 07:05 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  But I'm not sure the conference would want to boot out Hawaii, nor would Hawaii necessarily want to leave.

In addition to the 13th game and Week Zero exemptions the MWC benefits from UH's Hawaii Bowl tie-in. There's also the fact that UH's program is on the upswing, having beaten two Pac-12 opponents and won the western division title in 2019. I doubt the MWC boots out UH anytime soon.

And I can assure you UH has zero desire to leave. The school's administration has no appetite for independence.

(05-19-2020 02:13 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 01:59 PM)GTFletch Wrote:  If Boise St leaves MWC for AAC wouldn't it make since that NMSU replaces Boise State?

No. You would be replacing one of the best G5 football programs with one of the worst in FBS.

Six one half dozen the other since the likes of Rice would be toward the top of the pile to replace Boise. Can’t help but think the MWC chatter about them and UTEP has them high on the list if someone were to leave.

(05-20-2020 06:39 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 02:13 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 01:59 PM)GTFletch Wrote:  If Boise St leaves MWC for AAC wouldn't it make since that NMSU replaces Boise State?

No. You would be replacing one of the best G5 football programs with one of the worst in FBS.

Six one half dozen the other since the likes of Rice would be toward the top of the pile to replace Boise. Can’t help but think the MWC chatter about them and UTEP has them high on the list if someone were to leave.

Well call me Bat **** Crazy, but I see Bosie St upset with the MWC deal, and the open hole in the AAC as an opportunity for ESPN to get Boise State FB back on ESPN... Boise St could go AAC as FB only, put all other sports in WAC... NMSU could join MWC as a replacement... NMSU Basketball would be good and all MWC teams would not have to worry about the extra money to Boise State...


Also with Boise State on board in the AAC for FB would help the AAC/ESPN renegotiations

Just a thought....