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A combined Akron-Kent State would be huge enrollment wise- approximately 55,000. That would vault them over is by almost 10,000 students as the second largest university in the state.

(07-17-2020 09:28 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 08:32 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 07:37 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 11:15 PM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 09:44 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Dang. The University of Akron just took 1/5 of their full time faculty off the books. Terminated 97 and had 21 quit or retire that won’t be replaced...out of just 570.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020...sity-akron

This has been building at Akron for a decade. They had a delusional President who spent money hand over fist in an attempt to turn them into OSU (and used to publicly brag that they would shortly become the first choice public university for Northeast Ohio kids within a few years) and then walked away before the financial house of cards came tumbling down. Their enrollment has been declining for years. They built a 60M football stadium that's 80% empty most Saturdays. They can blame this on COVID all they want, but their day of reckoning was coming virus or not. I hope Kent State makes good use of their soon to be downtown branch.

Maybe UC should beat them to the punch and open up the UC-Northeast Branch.

Even the mention of it would send a shockwave through Cowtown. I like it. And that polymer science unit would open a new opportunity for extending UC's considerable research and education in STEM fields.

It would've two years ago before it was strip-mined by Duke University. As 1985 said, this has been written on the wall for years...and we've both been throwing out the regional education consortium model on here for quite some time. NE Ohio is going to be the pilot case for that.

Yes, I concur. I do however believe that Wright State's proximity to Cincinnati and the emerging Cincy-Dayton metroplex requires UC's attention. I would hate to see the OSU brand in Fairborn, 50 miles from our campus. And to my way of thinking, with medicine and engineering it could really help expand the UC footprint north which many of us have argued is a real need--breaking out of the bounds of I-275 to be a bigger player in state.

(07-17-2020 08:32 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 07:37 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 11:15 PM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 09:44 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Dang. The University of Akron just took 1/5 of their full time faculty off the books. Terminated 97 and had 21 quit or retire that won’t be replaced...out of just 570.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020...sity-akron

This has been building at Akron for a decade. They had a delusional President who spent money hand over fist in an attempt to turn them into OSU (and used to publicly brag that they would shortly become the first choice public university for Northeast Ohio kids within a few years) and then walked away before the financial house of cards came tumbling down. Their enrollment has been declining for years. They built a 60M football stadium that's 80% empty most Saturdays. They can blame this on COVID all they want, but their day of reckoning was coming virus or not. I hope Kent State makes good use of their soon to be downtown branch.

Maybe UC should beat them to the punch and open up the UC-Northeast Branch.

Even the mention of it would send a shockwave through Cowtown. I like it. And that polymer science unit would open a new opportunity for extending UC's considerable research and education in STEM fields.

I don't think OSU would really care all that much. OSU is one of about 12-15 public universities in the country that's reached a critical mass of endowment, fundraising, research funding and student selectivity where they can safely float above the rest of their state system. If OSU had any designs on Akron's polymer program, they would have poached it a long time ago. They probably didn't because they're already strong in Chemistry and Chemical Engineering and didn't need the political blowback of poaching another state school's one point of pride.

Wright State is a more interesting case though, should it need to be absorbed by another university. I'm not sure that UC could stop OSU there. OSU literally founded WSU back in the day and already has strong research ties with WPAFB plus the support of the politicians and ties to the DoD. I think the best course of action for UC would not be to take the Ono angle of competing against OSU but rather attempt to be their partner in the takeover. Given that Aerospace Engineering is one of the few departments where UC not only holds their own with OSU but is arguably stronger, this could be an area where UC could take a proactive, non-confrontational approach to OSU to reshape the system and undo the bad blood from the Ono years.

(07-18-2020 09:58 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 08:32 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 07:37 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 11:15 PM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 09:44 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Dang. The University of Akron just took 1/5 of their full time faculty off the books. Terminated 97 and had 21 quit or retire that won’t be replaced...out of just 570.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020...sity-akron

This has been building at Akron for a decade. They had a delusional President who spent money hand over fist in an attempt to turn them into OSU (and used to publicly brag that they would shortly become the first choice public university for Northeast Ohio kids within a few years) and then walked away before the financial house of cards came tumbling down. Their enrollment has been declining for years. They built a 60M football stadium that's 80% empty most Saturdays. They can blame this on COVID all they want, but their day of reckoning was coming virus or not. I hope Kent State makes good use of their soon to be downtown branch.

Maybe UC should beat them to the punch and open up the UC-Northeast Branch.

Even the mention of it would send a shockwave through Cowtown. I like it. And that polymer science unit would open a new opportunity for extending UC's considerable research and education in STEM fields.

I don't think OSU would really care all that much. OSU is one of about 12-15 public universities in the country that's reached a critical mass of endowment, fundraising, research funding and student selectivity where they can safely float above the rest of their state system. If OSU had any designs on Akron's polymer program, they would have poached it a long time ago. They probably didn't because they're already strong in Chemistry and Chemical Engineering and didn't need the political blowback of poaching another state school's one point of pride.

Wright State is a more interesting case though, should it need to be absorbed by another university. I'm not sure that UC could stop OSU there. OSU literally founded WSU back in the day and already has strong research ties with WPAFB plus the support of the politicians and ties to the DoD. I think the best course of action for UC would not be to take the Ono angle of competing against OSU but rather attempt to be their partner in the takeover. Given that Aerospace Engineering is one of the few departments where UC not only holds their own with OSU but is arguably stronger, this could be an area where UC could take a proactive, non-confrontational approach to OSU to reshape the system and undo the bad blood from the Ono years.

OSU won't be hurt if FB tanks nearly to the extent that these non P5 Ohio schools will. They can weather the storm because of the size of their endowment from the academic end, and the size of their fanbase from the athletic end.

UC is in a much more precarious state, if for no other reason than relative enrollment, and the subsidy that supports the AD...not to mention the loss of TV revenue and ticket sales.

I think you are going to see FB contract significantly if there is no season (which seems to be growing more likely by the day).

People really need to understand how strong of a marketing tool football is to boost enrollment. For a school like UC that has made it their stated mission to increase enrollment as a financial cornerstone, the loss of football would be massive.

And I'm not just talking about the hypothesized "flutie effect", but the presence of major Division 1 athletics in general. It's been a huge staple of UC's recent growth.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

(07-19-2020 09:12 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  People really need to understand how strong of a marketing tool football is to boost enrollment. For a school like UC that has made it their stated mission to increase enrollment as a financial cornerstone, the loss of football would be massive.

And I'm not just talking about the hypothesized "flutie effect", but the presence of major Division 1 athletics in general. It's been a huge staple of UC's recent growth.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

There is basically only 1-2 guys on this board who do not understand this. It gets in the way of their OSU football season.

Ran across this article in Forbes from a few days ago. Not a lot of material but the author talks about the woes facing Akron, Wright State and Ohio University. He think Akron and WSU will eventually be absorbed by someone else too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardvedd...0874d9497b

(07-24-2020 04:11 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Ran across this article in Forbes from a few days ago. Not a lot of material but the author talks about the woes facing Akron, Wright State and Ohio University. He think Akron and WSU will eventually be absorbed by someone else too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardvedd...0874d9497b

Sad to hear OU has dropped its standards. 25 years ago when my daughter graduated *** Laude its academics were decent.

(07-24-2020 11:02 PM)doss2 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 04:11 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Ran across this article in Forbes from a few days ago. Not a lot of material but the author talks about the woes facing Akron, Wright State and Ohio University. He think Akron and WSU will eventually be absorbed by someone else too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardvedd...0874d9497b

Sad to hear OU has dropped its standards. 25 years ago when my daughter graduated *** Laude its academics were decent.

I don't know about Vedder's description of OU. I think he might be looking back at his institution with some rose colored glasses. OU didn't move to selective admissions until well after OSU did and never caught up or came close to OSU or Miami. I remember them having a decent reputation for undergrad but nothing special. Probably the best thing that happened to them was OSU's forced open admissions in the 60s and 70s so they could market themselves as "OSU's no different than US!" Recently, they have really stagnated though, and UC has firmly moved past them as an undergraduate college as evidenced by both rankings and admissions selectivity.

If I had to handicap the field, it'd be something like this:

Above The Fray: OSU (too much endowment, fundraising, research funding, admissions demand and political power for anyone else to be in their orbit)

Thrive: UC (clearly has established itself as the state's secondary comprehensive research university, solid fundraising and endowment, big time athletic department. The goal in the next decade is to expand its reach into being a truly statewide institution.)

Survive Intact: Miami (Solid finances, strong--though ultimately limited due to the university's culture--admissions demand. I may not care for the place, but they've carved out their own peculiar little niche that works for them. The one caveat is that if their Chicago pipeline dries up all bets are off since 9 out of 10 Ohio kids accepted to both OSU and Miami choose OSU right now, and they've never been able to build that out of state demand in the West or Northeast as successfully as they've strip mined the Chicago suburbs.)

Survive But Not Without Pain and Changes: OU, KSU, BGSU (these schools are going to have to face up to the folly of their ridiculous academic empire building over the last 50 years and will face serious restructuring. They did not pass GO, they did not get 2 billion dollar endowments and they do not get to be OSU)

In Real Danger: UT, CSU, Shawnee State, Youngstown State

Bring Out Cha Dead!: Akron (say hello to KSU's new Urban campus), Wright State (OSU's WPAFB research extension, come on down!)

(07-25-2020 07:54 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 11:02 PM)doss2 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 04:11 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Ran across this article in Forbes from a few days ago. Not a lot of material but the author talks about the woes facing Akron, Wright State and Ohio University. He think Akron and WSU will eventually be absorbed by someone else too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardvedd...0874d9497b

Sad to hear OU has dropped its standards. 25 years ago when my daughter graduated *** Laude its academics were decent.

I don't know about Vedder's description of OU. I think he might be looking back at his institution with some rose colored glasses. OU didn't move to selective admissions until well after OSU did and never caught up or came close to OSU or Miami. I remember them having a decent reputation for undergrad but nothing special. Probably the best thing that happened to them was OSU's forced open admissions in the 60s and 70s so they could market themselves as "OSU's no different than US!" Recently, they have really stagnated though, and UC has firmly moved past them as an undergraduate college as evidenced by both rankings and admissions selectivity.

If I had to handicap the field, it'd be something like this:

Above The Fray: OSU (too much endowment, fundraising, research funding, admissions demand and political power for anyone else to be in their orbit)

Thrive: UC (clearly has established itself as the state's secondary comprehensive research university, solid fundraising and endowment, big time athletic department. The goal in the next decade is to expand its reach into being a truly statewide institution.)

Survive Intact: Miami (Solid finances, strong--though ultimately limited due to the university's culture--admissions demand. I may not care for the place, but they've carved out their own peculiar little niche that works for them. The one caveat is that if their Chicago pipeline dries up all bets are off since 9 out of 10 Ohio kids accepted to both OSU and Miami choose OSU right now, and they've never been able to build that out of state demand in the West or Northeast as successfully as they've strip mined the Chicago suburbs.)

Survive But Not Without Pain and Changes: OU, KSU, BGSU (these schools are going to have to face up to the folly of their ridiculous academic empire building over the last 50 years and will face serious restructuring. They did not pass GO, they did not get 2 billion dollar endowments and they do not get to be OSU)

In Real Danger: UT, CSU, Shawnee State, Youngstown State

Bring Out Cha Dead!: Akron (say hello to KSU's new Urban campus), Wright State (OSU's WPAFB research extension, come on down!)

I would probably bump UT up into the same group as BGSU, OU, and Kent State due to their much larger endowment than BGSU/KSU (triple both and just under a half billion) and their higher general research expenditures than all three, plus the benefit of having a decent metropolitan area to draw from. They're going to hurt, but they're in no way, shape, or form in the fore straits of CSU, YSU, or SSU. They ran a smaller budget deficit than KSU did this past year even with a decrease in enrollment vs. an increase for KSU. Kent State is is a way worse position than people think for one specific reason, theyve built out FAR too much and are extremely over-debted...those branch campuses were a great way to beat the retention-based funding rule, but they're killing their bottom line now.

Having said all of that, I'd still be absolutely shocked if BGSU and UT and Kent State and Akron were not merged into larger entities with explicit purposes (liberal arts at one campus, technical/professional degrees at the other) within the next two decades.

OU is also going to get slaughtered by Covid if they arent allowed to have on-campus classes. They rely on residential and auxiliary revenue for nearly 31% of their total operating budget every year. That's the problem with having absolutely no commuter student population...no budget insulation if you cannot house students.

(07-25-2020 08:29 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 07:54 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 11:02 PM)doss2 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 04:11 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Ran across this article in Forbes from a few days ago. Not a lot of material but the author talks about the woes facing Akron, Wright State and Ohio University. He think Akron and WSU will eventually be absorbed by someone else too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardvedd...0874d9497b

Sad to hear OU has dropped its standards. 25 years ago when my daughter graduated *** Laude its academics were decent.

I don't know about Vedder's description of OU. I think he might be looking back at his institution with some rose colored glasses. OU didn't move to selective admissions until well after OSU did and never caught up or came close to OSU or Miami. I remember them having a decent reputation for undergrad but nothing special. Probably the best thing that happened to them was OSU's forced open admissions in the 60s and 70s so they could market themselves as "OSU's no different than US!" Recently, they have really stagnated though, and UC has firmly moved past them as an undergraduate college as evidenced by both rankings and admissions selectivity.

If I had to handicap the field, it'd be something like this:

Above The Fray: OSU (too much endowment, fundraising, research funding, admissions demand and political power for anyone else to be in their orbit)

Thrive: UC (clearly has established itself as the state's secondary comprehensive research university, solid fundraising and endowment, big time athletic department. The goal in the next decade is to expand its reach into being a truly statewide institution.)

Survive Intact: Miami (Solid finances, strong--though ultimately limited due to the university's culture--admissions demand. I may not care for the place, but they've carved out their own peculiar little niche that works for them. The one caveat is that if their Chicago pipeline dries up all bets are off since 9 out of 10 Ohio kids accepted to both OSU and Miami choose OSU right now, and they've never been able to build that out of state demand in the West or Northeast as successfully as they've strip mined the Chicago suburbs.)

Survive But Not Without Pain and Changes: OU, KSU, BGSU (these schools are going to have to face up to the folly of their ridiculous academic empire building over the last 50 years and will face serious restructuring. They did not pass GO, they did not get 2 billion dollar endowments and they do not get to be OSU)

In Real Danger: UT, CSU, Shawnee State, Youngstown State

Bring Out Cha Dead!: Akron (say hello to KSU's new Urban campus), Wright State (OSU's WPAFB research extension, come on down!)

I would probably bump UT up into the same group as BGSU, OU, and Kent State due to their much larger endowment than BGSU/KSU (triple both and just under a half billion) and their higher general research expenditures than all three, plus the benefit of having a decent metropolitan area to draw from. They're going to hurt, but they're in no way, shape, or form in the fore straits of CSU, YSU, or SSU. They ran a smaller budget deficit than KSU did this past year even with a decrease in enrollment vs. an increase for KSU. Kent State is is a way worse position than people think for one specific reason, theyve built out FAR too much and are extremely over-debted...those branch campuses were a great way to beat the retention-based funding rule, but they're killing their bottom line now.

Having said all of that, I'd still be absolutely shocked if BGSU and UT and Kent State and Akron were not merged into larger entities with explicit purposes (liberal arts at one campus, technical/professional degrees at the other) within the next two decades.

OU is also going to get slaughtered by Covid if they arent allowed to have on-campus classes. They rely on residential and auxiliary revenue for nearly 31% of their total operating budget every year. That's the problem with having absolutely no commuter student population...no budget insulation if you cannot house students.

Merge UT and BGSU. Merge Akron and KSU. Shawnee should be a branch of OU. WSU should be merged with UC or OSU (guess who wins).

(07-25-2020 09:47 AM)doss2 Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 08:29 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 07:54 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 11:02 PM)doss2 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 04:11 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Ran across this article in Forbes from a few days ago. Not a lot of material but the author talks about the woes facing Akron, Wright State and Ohio University. He think Akron and WSU will eventually be absorbed by someone else too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardvedd...0874d9497b

Sad to hear OU has dropped its standards. 25 years ago when my daughter graduated *** Laude its academics were decent.

I don't know about Vedder's description of OU. I think he might be looking back at his institution with some rose colored glasses. OU didn't move to selective admissions until well after OSU did and never caught up or came close to OSU or Miami. I remember them having a decent reputation for undergrad but nothing special. Probably the best thing that happened to them was OSU's forced open admissions in the 60s and 70s so they could market themselves as "OSU's no different than US!" Recently, they have really stagnated though, and UC has firmly moved past them as an undergraduate college as evidenced by both rankings and admissions selectivity.

If I had to handicap the field, it'd be something like this:

Above The Fray: OSU (too much endowment, fundraising, research funding, admissions demand and political power for anyone else to be in their orbit)

Thrive: UC (clearly has established itself as the state's secondary comprehensive research university, solid fundraising and endowment, big time athletic department. The goal in the next decade is to expand its reach into being a truly statewide institution.)

Survive Intact: Miami (Solid finances, strong--though ultimately limited due to the university's culture--admissions demand. I may not care for the place, but they've carved out their own peculiar little niche that works for them. The one caveat is that if their Chicago pipeline dries up all bets are off since 9 out of 10 Ohio kids accepted to both OSU and Miami choose OSU right now, and they've never been able to build that out of state demand in the West or Northeast as successfully as they've strip mined the Chicago suburbs.)

Survive But Not Without Pain and Changes: OU, KSU, BGSU (these schools are going to have to face up to the folly of their ridiculous academic empire building over the last 50 years and will face serious restructuring. They did not pass GO, they did not get 2 billion dollar endowments and they do not get to be OSU)

In Real Danger: UT, CSU, Shawnee State, Youngstown State

Bring Out Cha Dead!: Akron (say hello to KSU's new Urban campus), Wright State (OSU's WPAFB research extension, come on down!)

I would probably bump UT up into the same group as BGSU, OU, and Kent State due to their much larger endowment than BGSU/KSU (triple both and just under a half billion) and their higher general research expenditures than all three, plus the benefit of having a decent metropolitan area to draw from. They're going to hurt, but they're in no way, shape, or form in the fore straits of CSU, YSU, or SSU. They ran a smaller budget deficit than KSU did this past year even with a decrease in enrollment vs. an increase for KSU. Kent State is is a way worse position than people think for one specific reason, theyve built out FAR too much and are extremely over-debted...those branch campuses were a great way to beat the retention-based funding rule, but they're killing their bottom line now.

Having said all of that, I'd still be absolutely shocked if BGSU and UT and Kent State and Akron were not merged into larger entities with explicit purposes (liberal arts at one campus, technical/professional degrees at the other) within the next two decades.

OU is also going to get slaughtered by Covid if they arent allowed to have on-campus classes. They rely on residential and auxiliary revenue for nearly 31% of their total operating budget every year. That's the problem with having absolutely no commuter student population...no budget insulation if you cannot house students.

Merge UT and BGSU. Merge Akron and KSU. Shawnee should be a branch of OU. WSU should be merged with UC or OSU (guess who wins).

The WSU thing is interesting. UC can't "win," but if it pursues a conciliatory non-competitive path with OSU (the opposite of what Ono would do), it can end up in a constructive collaboration where it doesn't lose. If I take off the black and red glasses for a moment, I think it's up to UC to show the good faith here and demonstrate to OSU that it can be a constructive partner rather than a rival. Ono did everything he could to throw gasoline on the relationship and then dance around with a zippo in his hand, but with him gone and a new OSU President coming in, there is a window to take a different path.

(07-25-2020 09:55 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 09:47 AM)doss2 Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 08:29 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 07:54 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 11:02 PM)doss2 Wrote:  Sad to hear OU has dropped its standards. 25 years ago when my daughter graduated *** Laude its academics were decent.

I don't know about Vedder's description of OU. I think he might be looking back at his institution with some rose colored glasses. OU didn't move to selective admissions until well after OSU did and never caught up or came close to OSU or Miami. I remember them having a decent reputation for undergrad but nothing special. Probably the best thing that happened to them was OSU's forced open admissions in the 60s and 70s so they could market themselves as "OSU's no different than US!" Recently, they have really stagnated though, and UC has firmly moved past them as an undergraduate college as evidenced by both rankings and admissions selectivity.

If I had to handicap the field, it'd be something like this:

Above The Fray: OSU (too much endowment, fundraising, research funding, admissions demand and political power for anyone else to be in their orbit)

Thrive: UC (clearly has established itself as the state's secondary comprehensive research university, solid fundraising and endowment, big time athletic department. The goal in the next decade is to expand its reach into being a truly statewide institution.)

Survive Intact: Miami (Solid finances, strong--though ultimately limited due to the university's culture--admissions demand. I may not care for the place, but they've carved out their own peculiar little niche that works for them. The one caveat is that if their Chicago pipeline dries up all bets are off since 9 out of 10 Ohio kids accepted to both OSU and Miami choose OSU right now, and they've never been able to build that out of state demand in the West or Northeast as successfully as they've strip mined the Chicago suburbs.)

Survive But Not Without Pain and Changes: OU, KSU, BGSU (these schools are going to have to face up to the folly of their ridiculous academic empire building over the last 50 years and will face serious restructuring. They did not pass GO, they did not get 2 billion dollar endowments and they do not get to be OSU)

In Real Danger: UT, CSU, Shawnee State, Youngstown State

Bring Out Cha Dead!: Akron (say hello to KSU's new Urban campus), Wright State (OSU's WPAFB research extension, come on down!)

I would probably bump UT up into the same group as BGSU, OU, and Kent State due to their much larger endowment than BGSU/KSU (triple both and just under a half billion) and their higher general research expenditures than all three, plus the benefit of having a decent metropolitan area to draw from. They're going to hurt, but they're in no way, shape, or form in the fore straits of CSU, YSU, or SSU. They ran a smaller budget deficit than KSU did this past year even with a decrease in enrollment vs. an increase for KSU. Kent State is is a way worse position than people think for one specific reason, theyve built out FAR too much and are extremely over-debted...those branch campuses were a great way to beat the retention-based funding rule, but they're killing their bottom line now.

Having said all of that, I'd still be absolutely shocked if BGSU and UT and Kent State and Akron were not merged into larger entities with explicit purposes (liberal arts at one campus, technical/professional degrees at the other) within the next two decades.

OU is also going to get slaughtered by Covid if they arent allowed to have on-campus classes. They rely on residential and auxiliary revenue for nearly 31% of their total operating budget every year. That's the problem with having absolutely no commuter student population...no budget insulation if you cannot house students.

Merge UT and BGSU. Merge Akron and KSU. Shawnee should be a branch of OU. WSU should be merged with UC or OSU (guess who wins).

The WSU thing is interesting. UC can't "win," but if it pursues a conciliatory non-competitive path with OSU (the opposite of what Ono would do), it can end up in a constructive collaboration where it doesn't lose. If I take off the black and red glasses for a moment, I think it's up to UC to show the good faith here and demonstrate to OSU that it can be a constructive partner rather than a rival. Ono did everything he could to throw gasoline on the relationship and then dance around with a zippo in his hand, but with him gone and a new OSU President coming in, there is a window to take a different path.

Spot on we should genuflect to the God of OSU and hope for some crumbs from them.

(07-25-2020 08:29 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 07:54 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 11:02 PM)doss2 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 04:11 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Ran across this article in Forbes from a few days ago. Not a lot of material but the author talks about the woes facing Akron, Wright State and Ohio University. He think Akron and WSU will eventually be absorbed by someone else too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardvedd...0874d9497b

Sad to hear OU has dropped its standards. 25 years ago when my daughter graduated *** Laude its academics were decent.

I don't know about Vedder's description of OU. I think he might be looking back at his institution with some rose colored glasses. OU didn't move to selective admissions until well after OSU did and never caught up or came close to OSU or Miami. I remember them having a decent reputation for undergrad but nothing special. Probably the best thing that happened to them was OSU's forced open admissions in the 60s and 70s so they could market themselves as "OSU's no different than US!" Recently, they have really stagnated though, and UC has firmly moved past them as an undergraduate college as evidenced by both rankings and admissions selectivity.

If I had to handicap the field, it'd be something like this:

Above The Fray: OSU (too much endowment, fundraising, research funding, admissions demand and political power for anyone else to be in their orbit)

Thrive: UC (clearly has established itself as the state's secondary comprehensive research university, solid fundraising and endowment, big time athletic department. The goal in the next decade is to expand its reach into being a truly statewide institution.)

Survive Intact: Miami (Solid finances, strong--though ultimately limited due to the university's culture--admissions demand. I may not care for the place, but they've carved out their own peculiar little niche that works for them. The one caveat is that if their Chicago pipeline dries up all bets are off since 9 out of 10 Ohio kids accepted to both OSU and Miami choose OSU right now, and they've never been able to build that out of state demand in the West or Northeast as successfully as they've strip mined the Chicago suburbs.)

Survive But Not Without Pain and Changes: OU, KSU, BGSU (these schools are going to have to face up to the folly of their ridiculous academic empire building over the last 50 years and will face serious restructuring. They did not pass GO, they did not get 2 billion dollar endowments and they do not get to be OSU)

In Real Danger: UT, CSU, Shawnee State, Youngstown State

Bring Out Cha Dead!: Akron (say hello to KSU's new Urban campus), Wright State (OSU's WPAFB research extension, come on down!)

I would probably bump UT up into the same group as BGSU, OU, and Kent State due to their much larger endowment than BGSU/KSU (triple both and just under a half billion) and their higher general research expenditures than all three, plus the benefit of having a decent metropolitan area to draw from. They're going to hurt, but they're in no way, shape, or form in the fore straits of CSU, YSU, or SSU. They ran a smaller budget deficit than KSU did this past year even with a decrease in enrollment vs. an increase for KSU. Kent State is is a way worse position than people think for one specific reason, theyve built out FAR too much and are extremely over-debted...those branch campuses were a great way to beat the retention-based funding rule, but they're killing their bottom line now.

Having said all of that, I'd still be absolutely shocked if BGSU and UT and Kent State and Akron were not merged into larger entities with explicit purposes (liberal arts at one campus, technical/professional degrees at the other) within the next two decades.

OU is also going to get slaughtered by Covid if they arent allowed to have on-campus classes. They rely on residential and auxiliary revenue for nearly 31% of their total operating budget every year. That's the problem with having absolutely no commuter student population...no budget insulation if you cannot house students.

I agree about Toledo. IMO, they're in pretty decent shape and are neck-and-neck with Kent to be #3 after UC. Although I'm not the one on this board who works there....

A question to Mr. 1985 - what do you mean by "academic empire building?" Do you mean that they went into too much debt to build new buildings? Or they opened programs with high fixed costs whose demand will dry up? Or something else?

(07-25-2020 02:06 PM)doss2 Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 09:55 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 09:47 AM)doss2 Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 08:29 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 07:54 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  I don't know about Vedder's description of OU. I think he might be looking back at his institution with some rose colored glasses. OU didn't move to selective admissions until well after OSU did and never caught up or came close to OSU or Miami. I remember them having a decent reputation for undergrad but nothing special. Probably the best thing that happened to them was OSU's forced open admissions in the 60s and 70s so they could market themselves as "OSU's no different than US!" Recently, they have really stagnated though, and UC has firmly moved past them as an undergraduate college as evidenced by both rankings and admissions selectivity.

If I had to handicap the field, it'd be something like this:

Above The Fray: OSU (too much endowment, fundraising, research funding, admissions demand and political power for anyone else to be in their orbit)

Thrive: UC (clearly has established itself as the state's secondary comprehensive research university, solid fundraising and endowment, big time athletic department. The goal in the next decade is to expand its reach into being a truly statewide institution.)

Survive Intact: Miami (Solid finances, strong--though ultimately limited due to the university's culture--admissions demand. I may not care for the place, but they've carved out their own peculiar little niche that works for them. The one caveat is that if their Chicago pipeline dries up all bets are off since 9 out of 10 Ohio kids accepted to both OSU and Miami choose OSU right now, and they've never been able to build that out of state demand in the West or Northeast as successfully as they've strip mined the Chicago suburbs.)

Survive But Not Without Pain and Changes: OU, KSU, BGSU (these schools are going to have to face up to the folly of their ridiculous academic empire building over the last 50 years and will face serious restructuring. They did not pass GO, they did not get 2 billion dollar endowments and they do not get to be OSU)

In Real Danger: UT, CSU, Shawnee State, Youngstown State

Bring Out Cha Dead!: Akron (say hello to KSU's new Urban campus), Wright State (OSU's WPAFB research extension, come on down!)

I would probably bump UT up into the same group as BGSU, OU, and Kent State due to their much larger endowment than BGSU/KSU (triple both and just under a half billion) and their higher general research expenditures than all three, plus the benefit of having a decent metropolitan area to draw from. They're going to hurt, but they're in no way, shape, or form in the fore straits of CSU, YSU, or SSU. They ran a smaller budget deficit than KSU did this past year even with a decrease in enrollment vs. an increase for KSU. Kent State is is a way worse position than people think for one specific reason, theyve built out FAR too much and are extremely over-debted...those branch campuses were a great way to beat the retention-based funding rule, but they're killing their bottom line now.

Having said all of that, I'd still be absolutely shocked if BGSU and UT and Kent State and Akron were not merged into larger entities with explicit purposes (liberal arts at one campus, technical/professional degrees at the other) within the next two decades.

OU is also going to get slaughtered by Covid if they arent allowed to have on-campus classes. They rely on residential and auxiliary revenue for nearly 31% of their total operating budget every year. That's the problem with having absolutely no commuter student population...no budget insulation if you cannot house students.

Merge UT and BGSU. Merge Akron and KSU. Shawnee should be a branch of OU. WSU should be merged with UC or OSU (guess who wins).

The WSU thing is interesting. UC can't "win," but if it pursues a conciliatory non-competitive path with OSU (the opposite of what Ono would do), it can end up in a constructive collaboration where it doesn't lose. If I take off the black and red glasses for a moment, I think it's up to UC to show the good faith here and demonstrate to OSU that it can be a constructive partner rather than a rival. Ono did everything he could to throw gasoline on the relationship and then dance around with a zippo in his hand, but with him gone and a new OSU President coming in, there is a window to take a different path.

Spot on we should genuflect to the God of OSU and hope for some crumbs from them.

No, but we should recognize the god damned 800 pound gorilla in the room and try to avoid poking a stick at it. Attempting to find some common ground and collaboration with them on something like taking over WSU is not genuflecting and hoping for crumbs. It's smart, strategic thinking. Or we could take Ono's path and poke that stick and make it an us versus them proposition, and when the state turns around and inevitably gives full control of WSU to the school that has built up a century of political capital in every county and town in the state, we can then sit in our I-275 bubble and complain about how unfair everything is.

UC's problem, as I've said a hundred times, is not OSU pushing UC down. It's half a dozen other state schools pulling UC back because they think it's their god given right to take a shot at the throne.

(07-25-2020 03:22 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 08:29 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 07:54 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 11:02 PM)doss2 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 04:11 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Ran across this article in Forbes from a few days ago. Not a lot of material but the author talks about the woes facing Akron, Wright State and Ohio University. He think Akron and WSU will eventually be absorbed by someone else too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardvedd...0874d9497b

Sad to hear OU has dropped its standards. 25 years ago when my daughter graduated *** Laude its academics were decent.

I don't know about Vedder's description of OU. I think he might be looking back at his institution with some rose colored glasses. OU didn't move to selective admissions until well after OSU did and never caught up or came close to OSU or Miami. I remember them having a decent reputation for undergrad but nothing special. Probably the best thing that happened to them was OSU's forced open admissions in the 60s and 70s so they could market themselves as "OSU's no different than US!" Recently, they have really stagnated though, and UC has firmly moved past them as an undergraduate college as evidenced by both rankings and admissions selectivity.

If I had to handicap the field, it'd be something like this:

Above The Fray: OSU (too much endowment, fundraising, research funding, admissions demand and political power for anyone else to be in their orbit)

Thrive: UC (clearly has established itself as the state's secondary comprehensive research university, solid fundraising and endowment, big time athletic department. The goal in the next decade is to expand its reach into being a truly statewide institution.)

Survive Intact: Miami (Solid finances, strong--though ultimately limited due to the university's culture--admissions demand. I may not care for the place, but they've carved out their own peculiar little niche that works for them. The one caveat is that if their Chicago pipeline dries up all bets are off since 9 out of 10 Ohio kids accepted to both OSU and Miami choose OSU right now, and they've never been able to build that out of state demand in the West or Northeast as successfully as they've strip mined the Chicago suburbs.)

Survive But Not Without Pain and Changes: OU, KSU, BGSU (these schools are going to have to face up to the folly of their ridiculous academic empire building over the last 50 years and will face serious restructuring. They did not pass GO, they did not get 2 billion dollar endowments and they do not get to be OSU)

In Real Danger: UT, CSU, Shawnee State, Youngstown State

Bring Out Cha Dead!: Akron (say hello to KSU's new Urban campus), Wright State (OSU's WPAFB research extension, come on down!)

I would probably bump UT up into the same group as BGSU, OU, and Kent State due to their much larger endowment than BGSU/KSU (triple both and just under a half billion) and their higher general research expenditures than all three, plus the benefit of having a decent metropolitan area to draw from. They're going to hurt, but they're in no way, shape, or form in the fore straits of CSU, YSU, or SSU. They ran a smaller budget deficit than KSU did this past year even with a decrease in enrollment vs. an increase for KSU. Kent State is is a way worse position than people think for one specific reason, theyve built out FAR too much and are extremely over-debted...those branch campuses were a great way to beat the retention-based funding rule, but they're killing their bottom line now.

Having said all of that, I'd still be absolutely shocked if BGSU and UT and Kent State and Akron were not merged into larger entities with explicit purposes (liberal arts at one campus, technical/professional degrees at the other) within the next two decades.

OU is also going to get slaughtered by Covid if they arent allowed to have on-campus classes. They rely on residential and auxiliary revenue for nearly 31% of their total operating budget every year. That's the problem with having absolutely no commuter student population...no budget insulation if you cannot house students.

I agree about Toledo. IMO, they're in pretty decent shape and are neck-and-neck with Kent to be #3 after UC. Although I'm not the one on this board who works there....

A question to Mr. 1985 - what do you mean by "academic empire building?" Do you mean that they went into too much debt to build new buildings? Or they opened programs with high fixed costs whose demand will dry up? Or something else?

Both. It started with all the schools piling on redundant, unnecessary doctoral programs in the 60s and 70s, most of which to this day fail to crack the top 100 in any meaningful ranking. And of course, that brought on accompanying bricks and mortar expansion to house what these schools thought would certainly grow into AAU quality programs.

Also, I can see bumping up UT in my classifications. I think that's valid.

(07-25-2020 03:22 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 08:29 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 07:54 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 11:02 PM)doss2 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 04:11 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Ran across this article in Forbes from a few days ago. Not a lot of material but the author talks about the woes facing Akron, Wright State and Ohio University. He think Akron and WSU will eventually be absorbed by someone else too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardvedd...0874d9497b

Sad to hear OU has dropped its standards. 25 years ago when my daughter graduated *** Laude its academics were decent.

I don't know about Vedder's description of OU. I think he might be looking back at his institution with some rose colored glasses. OU didn't move to selective admissions until well after OSU did and never caught up or came close to OSU or Miami. I remember them having a decent reputation for undergrad but nothing special. Probably the best thing that happened to them was OSU's forced open admissions in the 60s and 70s so they could market themselves as "OSU's no different than US!" Recently, they have really stagnated though, and UC has firmly moved past them as an undergraduate college as evidenced by both rankings and admissions selectivity.

If I had to handicap the field, it'd be something like this:

Above The Fray: OSU (too much endowment, fundraising, research funding, admissions demand and political power for anyone else to be in their orbit)

Thrive: UC (clearly has established itself as the state's secondary comprehensive research university, solid fundraising and endowment, big time athletic department. The goal in the next decade is to expand its reach into being a truly statewide institution.)

Survive Intact: Miami (Solid finances, strong--though ultimately limited due to the university's culture--admissions demand. I may not care for the place, but they've carved out their own peculiar little niche that works for them. The one caveat is that if their Chicago pipeline dries up all bets are off since 9 out of 10 Ohio kids accepted to both OSU and Miami choose OSU right now, and they've never been able to build that out of state demand in the West or Northeast as successfully as they've strip mined the Chicago suburbs.)

Survive But Not Without Pain and Changes: OU, KSU, BGSU (these schools are going to have to face up to the folly of their ridiculous academic empire building over the last 50 years and will face serious restructuring. They did not pass GO, they did not get 2 billion dollar endowments and they do not get to be OSU)

In Real Danger: UT, CSU, Shawnee State, Youngstown State

Bring Out Cha Dead!: Akron (say hello to KSU's new Urban campus), Wright State (OSU's WPAFB research extension, come on down!)

I would probably bump UT up into the same group as BGSU, OU, and Kent State due to their much larger endowment than BGSU/KSU (triple both and just under a half billion) and their higher general research expenditures than all three, plus the benefit of having a decent metropolitan area to draw from. They're going to hurt, but they're in no way, shape, or form in the fore straits of CSU, YSU, or SSU. They ran a smaller budget deficit than KSU did this past year even with a decrease in enrollment vs. an increase for KSU. Kent State is is a way worse position than people think for one specific reason, theyve built out FAR too much and are extremely over-debted...those branch campuses were a great way to beat the retention-based funding rule, but they're killing their bottom line now.

Having said all of that, I'd still be absolutely shocked if BGSU and UT and Kent State and Akron were not merged into larger entities with explicit purposes (liberal arts at one campus, technical/professional degrees at the other) within the next two decades.

OU is also going to get slaughtered by Covid if they arent allowed to have on-campus classes. They rely on residential and auxiliary revenue for nearly 31% of their total operating budget every year. That's the problem with having absolutely no commuter student population...no budget insulation if you cannot house students.

I agree about Toledo. IMO, they're in pretty decent shape and are neck-and-neck with Kent to be #3 after UC. Although I'm not the one on this board who works there....

A question to Mr. 1985 - what do you mean by "academic empire building?" Do you mean that they went into too much debt to build new buildings? Or they opened programs with high fixed costs whose demand will dry up? Or something else?

I'd give Kent a pretty solid lead there due to their size and the way they've pretty much locked down the secondary enrollment market in NE Ohio, but UT is squarely in 5th (Behind OSU, UC, Miami, and KSU). I really don't like OU's 10 year outlook, but they're going to be propped up by the state since that region NEEDS an academic engine. BGSU is two bad years of enrollment away from having VERY big decisions to make, much like Akron, due to their glut of non-revenue/research departments. While they're growing at the moment, they don't have any professional programs, have no significant alumni population in lucrative fields (not having an Engineering or Medical presence kills your endowment headroom), and don't really have any way out of their financial issues as most of their debt is incurred over the next two decades due to their significant capital improvement projects in the '10s. Toledo (luckily) hasn't joined the arms race on the capital/physical infrastructure side outside of one particular boondoggle over at the Medical School, strong programs in the more in-demand areas (Nursing, Engineering, and Medical School are all Top 100 colleges) and they've got a pretty sizeable group of corporate partners with very long histories tied to UT. Once the UTMC fiasco gets figured out, UT's going to be in WAY better shape than many would give them credit for, as they ran a $6M shortfall last year while their hospital (which most everyone who understands the situation would say is an unnecessary piece of real-estate) lost $27M...so the academic arm of the institution made $21M last year, of which there are a ton of programs and places that money could be spent fruitfully once we start carving out the dead weight program-wise.

(07-25-2020 09:47 AM)doss2 Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 08:29 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(07-25-2020 07:54 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 11:02 PM)doss2 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 04:11 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Ran across this article in Forbes from a few days ago. Not a lot of material but the author talks about the woes facing Akron, Wright State and Ohio University. He think Akron and WSU will eventually be absorbed by someone else too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardvedd...0874d9497b

Sad to hear OU has dropped its standards. 25 years ago when my daughter graduated *** Laude its academics were decent.

I don't know about Vedder's description of OU. I think he might be looking back at his institution with some rose colored glasses. OU didn't move to selective admissions until well after OSU did and never caught up or came close to OSU or Miami. I remember them having a decent reputation for undergrad but nothing special. Probably the best thing that happened to them was OSU's forced open admissions in the 60s and 70s so they could market themselves as "OSU's no different than US!" Recently, they have really stagnated though, and UC has firmly moved past them as an undergraduate college as evidenced by both rankings and admissions selectivity.

If I had to handicap the field, it'd be something like this:

Above The Fray: OSU (too much endowment, fundraising, research funding, admissions demand and political power for anyone else to be in their orbit)

Thrive: UC (clearly has established itself as the state's secondary comprehensive research university, solid fundraising and endowment, big time athletic department. The goal in the next decade is to expand its reach into being a truly statewide institution.)

Survive Intact: Miami (Solid finances, strong--though ultimately limited due to the university's culture--admissions demand. I may not care for the place, but they've carved out their own peculiar little niche that works for them. The one caveat is that if their Chicago pipeline dries up all bets are off since 9 out of 10 Ohio kids accepted to both OSU and Miami choose OSU right now, and they've never been able to build that out of state demand in the West or Northeast as successfully as they've strip mined the Chicago suburbs.)

Survive But Not Without Pain and Changes: OU, KSU, BGSU (these schools are going to have to face up to the folly of their ridiculous academic empire building over the last 50 years and will face serious restructuring. They did not pass GO, they did not get 2 billion dollar endowments and they do not get to be OSU)

In Real Danger: UT, CSU, Shawnee State, Youngstown State

Bring Out Cha Dead!: Akron (say hello to KSU's new Urban campus), Wright State (OSU's WPAFB research extension, come on down!)

I would probably bump UT up into the same group as BGSU, OU, and Kent State due to their much larger endowment than BGSU/KSU (triple both and just under a half billion) and their higher general research expenditures than all three, plus the benefit of having a decent metropolitan area to draw from. They're going to hurt, but they're in no way, shape, or form in the fore straits of CSU, YSU, or SSU. They ran a smaller budget deficit than KSU did this past year even with a decrease in enrollment vs. an increase for KSU. Kent State is is a way worse position than people think for one specific reason, theyve built out FAR too much and are extremely over-debted...those branch campuses were a great way to beat the retention-based funding rule, but they're killing their bottom line now.

Having said all of that, I'd still be absolutely shocked if BGSU and UT and Kent State and Akron were not merged into larger entities with explicit purposes (liberal arts at one campus, technical/professional degrees at the other) within the next two decades.

OU is also going to get slaughtered by Covid if they arent allowed to have on-campus classes. They rely on residential and auxiliary revenue for nearly 31% of their total operating budget every year. That's the problem with having absolutely no commuter student population...no budget insulation if you cannot house students.

Merge UT and BGSU. Merge Akron and KSU. Shawnee should be a branch of OU. WSU should be merged with UC or OSU (guess who wins).

I think that is the way the Higher Ed landscape will look in 2035. Just not enough students and WAY too many redundancies in small geographic areas for it not to happen in some way. You may see the institutions retain their individual presence, but under a regional educational body that manages how they operate together with an eye on managing the limited resources they receive and ensuring that there is no more waste (basically answering the question as to why UT still has a College of Education while BGSU eats their lunch and why BGSU is getting into Engineering when they can't possibly hope to compete with UT's 100 year old CoE with an alumni base and corporate partner list a mile long...spend money on the programs that you can do well, and cut those that you clearly can't).

The state had every University carry out an institutional efficiency assessment, and it looked like we were moving in that direction quicker than many of us thought with development of many combined programs between the regional partners (Akron and KSU combined their Nursing College and Medical/Health Sciences at NEOMed and UT/BGSU basically merged all of their foreign language departments), but once Kasich left office it moved off the forefront of the new administration.

I've been told (by BGSU people) that what Bowling Green has going for it is that is brings in a LOT of "first generation to go to college" students. And that it really serves a whole lot of people from counties in northwest Ohio who have no wish to send their kids into the city of Toledo.

(07-24-2020 11:02 PM)doss2 Wrote:  

(07-24-2020 04:11 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Ran across this article in Forbes from a few days ago. Not a lot of material but the author talks about the woes facing Akron, Wright State and Ohio University. He think Akron and WSU will eventually be absorbed by someone else too.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardvedd...0874d9497b

Sad to hear OU has dropped its standards. 25 years ago when my daughter graduated *** Laude its academics were decent.

So you weird software considers *** Laude vulgar? What about Magna and Summa?