RE: Athletic Department COVID-19 Hit List: Growing Longer
In other words, engineer types have intelligence at higher levels overall but relating to others outside the engineering circle is poor overall. I kid, but I'm not really.
RE: Athletic Department COVID-19 Hit List: Growing Longer
(08-24-2020 03:02 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:
(08-24-2020 02:47 PM)skylinecat Wrote:
(08-24-2020 12:20 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote: This UC engineer edited and published my own hobby magazine for ten years, edited a companies magazine for ten years. and has been a sportswriter for a local newspaper for 15 years.
I'd like to see an English major try to do some engineering jobs :)
There are highly capable people coming out of every major and in every profession. The same people writing code or developing electrical currents aren't writing Finnegan's Wake or Harry Potter (or your book of choice). The idea that because someone majored in engineering that they would be inherently suited towards governance is as ridiculous as thinking every political science major is. More to the point, every engineer I've ever met would literally **** their pants if you told them they had to give a speech to 30 people. Being able to work a room is a skillset just as much as any mathematical abilities. See Mike Bohn v. Cunningham for an example.
I agree with that thesis...however, I think the one thing you might have to reconcile with is that GENERALLY engineers are far more intelligent on paper than any other industry outside of medicine, where it is nearly a dead heat. That's probably what those posters are saying, engineers likely have a far higher capacity for aptitude in different areas on the nature of their baseline intelligence being higher that most average individuals in other areas. With that being said, aptitude and application of that ability are two VERY different things, and in most social situations, engineers tend to fall behind.
Depends on what you consider to be intelligence. Working a math problem: sure. Talking to people? Working a room at a party? Sales? Not so much. There is a reason engineers that are good with people get moved to the sales side and make twice as much money as they are the unicorns of the bunch. I've also received plenty of emails from engineers that I'd argue seriously lack any writing ability. And that's not a bad thing. People are allowed and should be good at different things. A world with only engineers would be just as bad as a world without it.
RE: Athletic Department COVID-19 Hit List: Growing Longer
(08-24-2020 10:19 AM)colohank Wrote:
(08-24-2020 09:55 AM)converrl Wrote:
(08-24-2020 09:35 AM)colohank Wrote:
(08-24-2020 07:17 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:
(08-21-2020 04:24 PM)colohank Wrote: We wouldn't have fewer problems, just different ones. Consider, for example, the situation in Hong Kong. Why, you might wonder, are its citizens risking their freedom and their lives to protest? Is it because they disagree with the logic and reason of Xi Jinping? He's not only General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party, he's also an engineer. Logic and reason, it turns out, are in the eye of the beholder.
As always, logos, pathos, and ethos. It takes all three.
Hmm...do engineering students even study symbolic logic, or is that considered one of the liberal arts?
Really? Your argument is "Xi Jinping is an engineer," so therefore "engineers don't know everything"?
If you think anyone in liberal arts at a government school is learning Ethos, then I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
No, my point, as clearly stated, was that logic and reason are in the eye of the beholder. Just because an engineer's decisions may be based on his or her framework of logic and reason (though that's extremely doubtful) doesn't mean that they'll be palatable to each of the rest of us. That's why I mentioned Xi Jinping. He may love his decisions and believe that they're grounded in logic and reason, but the folks in Hong Kong apparently aren't so pleased with them.
Just think of all the crappy products that have been designed by engineers using their unique grasp, in your opinion, of logic and reason. Oftentimes, engineers are tasked by bean counters to produce incremental savings by shaving a few pennies or dollars off the cost of each part in a complex assembly. Given economies of scale, those little savings can add up. But the result is usually a cheaper (as in less durable) though not necessarily less expensive consumer product. Have you ever noticed how the engineers who designed pre-LED iterations of Chevys, Cadillac Escalades, and GM trucks were unable to produce a vehicle with two operable running lights or headlights? Were the engineers who designed the wiring harnesses at fault, or the ones who designed the switches or light bulbs? I don't know, but that particular defect endured through years of production. I guess the engineers who design Toyotas use a different kind of logic and reason.
No...logic and reason are objective disciplines. PRIDE is in the eye of the beholder.
What you are seeing in Hong Kong is a rejection of Communism and an embrace of Democracy. Central control crushes economies because it disobeys the free market, thus reducing the variety of goods and services.
RE: Athletic Department COVID-19 Hit List: Growing Longer
(08-24-2020 04:47 PM)skylinecat Wrote:
(08-24-2020 03:02 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:
(08-24-2020 02:47 PM)skylinecat Wrote:
(08-24-2020 12:20 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote: This UC engineer edited and published my own hobby magazine for ten years, edited a companies magazine for ten years. and has been a sportswriter for a local newspaper for 15 years.
I'd like to see an English major try to do some engineering jobs :)
There are highly capable people coming out of every major and in every profession. The same people writing code or developing electrical currents aren't writing Finnegan's Wake or Harry Potter (or your book of choice). The idea that because someone majored in engineering that they would be inherently suited towards governance is as ridiculous as thinking every political science major is. More to the point, every engineer I've ever met would literally **** their pants if you told them they had to give a speech to 30 people. Being able to work a room is a skillset just as much as any mathematical abilities. See Mike Bohn v. Cunningham for an example.
I agree with that thesis...however, I think the one thing you might have to reconcile with is that GENERALLY engineers are far more intelligent on paper than any other industry outside of medicine, where it is nearly a dead heat. That's probably what those posters are saying, engineers likely have a far higher capacity for aptitude in different areas on the nature of their baseline intelligence being higher that most average individuals in other areas. With that being said, aptitude and application of that ability are two VERY different things, and in most social situations, engineers tend to fall behind.
Depends on what you consider to be intelligence. Working a math problem: sure. Talking to people? Working a room at a party? Sales? Not so much. There is a reason engineers that are good with people get moved to the sales side and make twice as much money as they are the unicorns of the bunch. I've also received plenty of emails from engineers that I'd argue seriously lack any writing ability. And that's not a bad thing. People are allowed and should be good at different things. A world with only engineers would be just as bad as a world without it.
RE: Athletic Department COVID-19 Hit List: Growing Longer
LoL. You guys are pretty much spot on about us engineers. It's taken me 36 years to spell at a 3rd grade level. I am terrible in front of a crowd, but I am getting better all the time. I can work a room, but not every room. It just depends on the types of people. We are odd creatures, no doubt. But you guys need us lol.
I've worked a lot of jobs, and I have excelled at pretty much any industry that I've been in. Although my social skills aren't the best, I used to work the front desk at Miami and I also used to be a host at a restaurant.
RE: Athletic Department COVID-19 Hit List: Growing Longer
(08-26-2020 08:35 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:
(08-25-2020 07:43 PM)skylinecat Wrote:
(08-25-2020 10:35 AM)bearcatdp Wrote: Isn't Dr. Pinto an engineer?
Hence the personality of a pet rock.
I’m not convinced he is real person. “Pinto“ is like Heisenberg...Zimpher’s alter ego/nom de plume.
I often felt that Ono took the cheerleading a little too far, to the point it came across as narcissistic. That being said I think Pinto could definitely use some of Dr. Ono’s public communication acumen.
I remember one time visiting the in-laws up in the Youngstown area during the holidays and talking to the younger cousins- all all high school students. When I told them I went to UC they all responded with how cool Dr. Ono was and because of him they were considering UC. I doubt kids in any part of Ohio are saying to themselves today that Dr. Pinto is the reason they have UC as a top college choice.
I am optimistic that the Next Lives Here Initiative will pay for UC down the line, but I haven’t seen UC rise in terms of research dollars, patents, etc or on any of the college rankings that come out every year. In fact we seem to be either stagnant and in some cases regressing a little.
RE: Athletic Department COVID-19 Hit List: Growing Longer
(08-26-2020 09:03 AM)Cataclysmo Wrote: But we are increasing enrollment every year. And that's Pinto's biggest goal.
That’s because we’ve become less selective. About 10 years ago we’d admit only 63% of applicants, the last number I saw had us hovering close to 75%. Not sure how they factor this into enrollment, but the online courses have helped swell the numbers. I saw yesterday the BOT approved a couple new programs such as a Master’s in Legal Studies Program.
RE: Athletic Department COVID-19 Hit List: Growing Longer
(08-24-2020 09:35 AM)colohank Wrote:
(08-24-2020 07:17 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:
(08-21-2020 04:24 PM)colohank Wrote:
(08-21-2020 02:33 PM)RuckleSt Wrote:
(08-21-2020 02:25 PM)colohank Wrote: I'm trying to imagine a world where every college grad is an illiterate engineer.
We would have far fewer problems because logic and reason would rule as opposed to emotion and idealism.
We wouldn't have fewer problems, just different ones. Consider, for example, the situation in Hong Kong. Why, you might wonder, are its citizens risking their freedom and their lives to protest? Is it because they disagree with the logic and reason of Xi Jinping? He's not only General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party, he's also an engineer. Logic and reason, it turns out, are in the eye of the beholder.
As always, logos, pathos, and ethos. It takes all three.
Hmm...do engineering students even study symbolic logic, or is that considered one of the liberal arts?
Really? Your argument is "Xi Jinping is an engineer," so therefore "engineers don't know everything"?
If you think anyone in liberal arts at a government school is learning Ethos, then I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
No, my point, as clearly stated, was that logic and reason are in the eye of the beholder. Just because an engineer's decisions may be based on his or her framework of logic and reason (though that's extremely doubtful) doesn't mean that they'll be palatable to each of the rest of us. That's why I mentioned Xi Jinping. He may love his decisions and believe that they're grounded in logic and reason, but the folks in Hong Kong apparently aren't so pleased with them.
Just think of all the crappy products that have been designed by engineers using their unique grasp, in your opinion, of logic and reason. Oftentimes, engineers are tasked by bean counters to produce incremental savings by shaving a few pennies or dollars off the cost of each part in a complex assembly. Given economies of scale, those little savings can add up. But the result is usually a cheaper (as in less durable) though not necessarily less expensive consumer product. Have you ever noticed how the engineers who designed pre-LED iterations of Chevys, Cadillac Escalades, and GM trucks were unable to produce a vehicle with two operable running lights or headlights? Were the engineers who designed the wiring harnesses at fault, or the ones who designed the switches or light bulbs? I don't know, but that particular defect endured through years of production. I guess the engineers who design Toyotas use a different kind of logic and reason.
(08-24-2020 01:05 PM)colohank Wrote:
(08-24-2020 11:43 AM)Helicopter Wrote:
(08-21-2020 02:25 PM)colohank Wrote:
(08-21-2020 12:53 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:
(08-21-2020 12:37 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote: Yep. There's no going back. I just wish some of the academic fluff in many institutions across this great nation would also make cuts. This is a topic for another board but universities have had no real incentive to run lean and teach courses that actually, you know, teach something tangible and useful. Many have become academician swamps of no return. Why no incentives? Students largely borrow the money to pay up.
Schools have those incentives. The consequences are just really, really long-term for schools that have billion dollar endowments or are state-sponsored.
Even state-sponsored schools like Chicago State & Wright State are in extreme danger of closing because of horrible decisions over the past 2 decades.
There's a reason that liberal arts schools like Illinois Wesleyan are dying, while engineering schools like Rose Hullman are thriving.
I'm trying to imagine a world where every college grad is an illiterate engineer.
Engineers by far are some of the most brilliant people in all fields. An average engineer would be top percentile in nearly every degree offering at a University, including English.
No doubt some, but far from all. Being brilliant in one field of endeavor doesn't qualify one for excellence in another. Passion or the lack thereof probably has something to do with it.
An average engineer? By definition, half of all engineers are below average. In other words, they aren't all brilliant, even as engineers.
Ok, ANY engineer should be able to demonstrate how stupid your argument is with two bell curves.
RE: Athletic Department COVID-19 Hit List: Growing Longer
(08-26-2020 09:44 AM)Helicopter Wrote:
(08-24-2020 09:35 AM)colohank Wrote:
(08-24-2020 07:17 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:
(08-21-2020 04:24 PM)colohank Wrote:
(08-21-2020 02:33 PM)RuckleSt Wrote: We would have far fewer problems because logic and reason would rule as opposed to emotion and idealism.
We wouldn't have fewer problems, just different ones. Consider, for example, the situation in Hong Kong. Why, you might wonder, are its citizens risking their freedom and their lives to protest? Is it because they disagree with the logic and reason of Xi Jinping? He's not only General Secretary of the Chinese Communist Party, he's also an engineer. Logic and reason, it turns out, are in the eye of the beholder.
As always, logos, pathos, and ethos. It takes all three.
Hmm...do engineering students even study symbolic logic, or is that considered one of the liberal arts?
Really? Your argument is "Xi Jinping is an engineer," so therefore "engineers don't know everything"?
If you think anyone in liberal arts at a government school is learning Ethos, then I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
No, my point, as clearly stated, was that logic and reason are in the eye of the beholder. Just because an engineer's decisions may be based on his or her framework of logic and reason (though that's extremely doubtful) doesn't mean that they'll be palatable to each of the rest of us. That's why I mentioned Xi Jinping. He may love his decisions and believe that they're grounded in logic and reason, but the folks in Hong Kong apparently aren't so pleased with them.
Just think of all the crappy products that have been designed by engineers using their unique grasp, in your opinion, of logic and reason. Oftentimes, engineers are tasked by bean counters to produce incremental savings by shaving a few pennies or dollars off the cost of each part in a complex assembly. Given economies of scale, those little savings can add up. But the result is usually a cheaper (as in less durable) though not necessarily less expensive consumer product. Have you ever noticed how the engineers who designed pre-LED iterations of Chevys, Cadillac Escalades, and GM trucks were unable to produce a vehicle with two operable running lights or headlights? Were the engineers who designed the wiring harnesses at fault, or the ones who designed the switches or light bulbs? I don't know, but that particular defect endured through years of production. I guess the engineers who design Toyotas use a different kind of logic and reason.
(08-24-2020 01:05 PM)colohank Wrote:
(08-24-2020 11:43 AM)Helicopter Wrote:
(08-21-2020 02:25 PM)colohank Wrote:
(08-21-2020 12:53 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote: Schools have those incentives. The consequences are just really, really long-term for schools that have billion dollar endowments or are state-sponsored.
Even state-sponsored schools like Chicago State & Wright State are in extreme danger of closing because of horrible decisions over the past 2 decades.
There's a reason that liberal arts schools like Illinois Wesleyan are dying, while engineering schools like Rose Hullman are thriving.
I'm trying to imagine a world where every college grad is an illiterate engineer.
Engineers by far are some of the most brilliant people in all fields. An average engineer would be top percentile in nearly every degree offering at a University, including English.
No doubt some, but far from all. Being brilliant in one field of endeavor doesn't qualify one for excellence in another. Passion or the lack thereof probably has something to do with it.
An average engineer? By definition, half of all engineers are below average. In other words, they aren't all brilliant, even as engineers.
Ok, ANY engineer should be able to demonstrate how stupid your argument is with two bell curves.
By definition, half of all men are below average in height. Therefore, men aren't taller than women, on average, right? If only I could find a graph of that...
/
Athletic Department COVID-19 Hit List: Growing Longer
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