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Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
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Kit-Cat Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 04:22 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 01:26 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Television and buy money is merely a subsidy for those football losses. I get that the money can aid the full athletic department, but if this amount doesn’t cover football operating costs for some left over for other sports, it still puts all the eyes on football viability.

The sad fact is, the reason football loses money at places like Akron - and my USF - is that for all the fuss in and around the campus about its alleged cultural importance, the Akron university community simply does not care enough to support it at a financially self-sustaining level. Not enough alumni, students or staff buy tickets to the games, etc. The Akron community speaks with its wallet, so to speak, and they collectively obviously do not think football is valuable.

If they did, football would make money, but they don't, so it doesn't.

07-coffee3

The problem is its just so expensive. I'd be curious to see the number's run - if the average G5 team sold out its stadium all home games over a period of seasons, would it break even? My guess is it would take a long time.

Its about the amount of money they make in FBS compared to FCS vs. how much additional spend they have to do.

Due to this its a no brainer provided you've got access to 20,000 seats to be in FBS over FCS. If its going to require a stadium investment and you don't have a favorable demographic it might not make sense.
05-14-2020 08:42 PM
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Post: #42
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 07:55 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 07:29 PM)johnintx Wrote:  When Texas State's enrollment increased to 20-30,000, they made the move to FBS. They still recruit the same students as Sam Houston and Stephen F. Austin, but they have more of them due to their location between Austin and San Antonio. My kids' high school in suburban Houston sends plenty of students to Texas State. They're not going there because they play Sun Belt football, but because it's a big state school with acheivable admission standards that is close (but not too close) to home. And the kids do like the money games against schools like A&M.

That kind of makes the argument that spending the money on FBS *doesn't* do very much to advertise the school, to elevate it above SHSU and SFAU as peers.

Im sure we all have different perceptions based on what part of the state we live or grew up in but I know back when I was looking at schools it seemed to be common misconception that if you werent FBS you werent "D1". A lot of that was because most people arent even aware of the FCS. It doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of education but perception wise it matters to a lot of kids. I know preception of TXST has changed a lot, especially for younger people. Probably cuz of the name change.
05-14-2020 08:46 PM
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Post: #43
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 08:34 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:18 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  Almost no sport or university department makes money. It's not all about money and FBS losses way less than FCS at the G5 level. FCS teams do not get 1.9 M from the P5 teams for a buy game.

According to the NCAA, the average athletic operating loss at G5 schools is $20 million. For FCS it is $13 million.

FCS do get pay-day games from P5, but unlike G5, they don't pay their coaches $2 million either. G5 is in a tough spot - they see themselves as in the same "league" as P5, so feel the need to keep up in terms of spending on coaches, facilities, etc. but they don't have the income to sustain that. FCS do bring in less revenue than G5, but aren't under the same pressure regarding expenses.

G5 are like someone with a $60,000 a year income who move into a neighborhood with $500,000 houses and annual income of $150,000. They go in to heavy debt to "keep up appearances" for the neighbors, spending more than they can afford.

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files...180123.pdf

That sounds like the AAC you are talking about. Places you know like USF.

MAC schools spend $1 million more on FB than FCS programs but earn many million more. Paydays, CFP money is a few million, Maction deal, marketing rights ect.

I was thinking the same thing. MAC schools like Eastern Michigan have stated that at best it'd be a wash moving to FCS. The MAC is a stable league that isn't in the arms-race w/ the P5 quite like the AAC is.
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2020 08:50 PM by Bronco'14.)
05-14-2020 08:49 PM
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Kit-Cat Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 08:49 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 08:34 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:18 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  Almost no sport or university department makes money. It's not all about money and FBS losses way less than FCS at the G5 level. FCS teams do not get 1.9 M from the P5 teams for a buy game.

According to the NCAA, the average athletic operating loss at G5 schools is $20 million. For FCS it is $13 million.

FCS do get pay-day games from P5, but unlike G5, they don't pay their coaches $2 million either. G5 is in a tough spot - they see themselves as in the same "league" as P5, so feel the need to keep up in terms of spending on coaches, facilities, etc. but they don't have the income to sustain that. FCS do bring in less revenue than G5, but aren't under the same pressure regarding expenses.

G5 are like someone with a $60,000 a year income who move into a neighborhood with $500,000 houses and annual income of $150,000. They go in to heavy debt to "keep up appearances" for the neighbors, spending more than they can afford.

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files...180123.pdf

That sounds like the AAC you are talking about. Places you know like USF.

MAC schools spend $1 million more on FB than FCS programs but earn many million more. Paydays, CFP money is a few million, Maction deal, marketing rights ect.

I was thinking the same thing. MAC schools like Eastern Michigan have stated that at best it'd be a wash moving to FCS. The MAC is a stable league that isn't in the arms-race w/ the P5 quite like the AAC is.

Right and what is going to happen is the AAC is going to have to start getting more realistic about coaching salaries. Unlike the MAC where its maybe a 1 million or so revenue hit to not have fans in the stands they lose a lot.
05-14-2020 09:32 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 12:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  They should eliminate Football. It is by far their biggest money-losing sport.

And another 50 schools should follow suit as well.
05-14-2020 09:34 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
Personally I think they should pull an Idaho and move to FCS. The team is 0-10 and they've never won more than 8 games out of the MAC in 30 years of trying.

Its just easier to scale back when the team is bad. They have the facility to be a dominant FCS team but they bit off more than they could chew in the MAC.
05-14-2020 09:39 PM
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Post: #47
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 09:39 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Personally I think they should pull an Idaho and move to FCS. The team is 0-10 and they've never won more than 8 games out of the MAC in 30 years of trying.

Its just easier to scale back when the team is bad. They have the facility to be a dominant FCS team but they bit off more than they could chew in the MAC.

No one is in over their head in the MAC. It’s a league of parity. They’ve won the MAC. They won the division in 2017. They beat the Big Ten West champion in 2018. They’re just mismanaged and foolishly fired Bowden.
05-14-2020 11:12 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 06:08 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 12:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  They should eliminate Football. It is by far their biggest money-losing sport.



Let’s spend $6.5-7 million so we can get back $1-2 million. But it’s so much more than money? So, define and qualify that. Prove it.

When you cut colleges and staffing, and now sport programs, that mystical “so much more” is straight up bull. It definitely doesn’t sound like football is actually helping Akron financially, and is bringing in more students and alumni money. Or any kind of meaningful money to sustain university operations.

“We’d be worse off without it” logic needs to be spotlighted for what it is. No school needs to be D1. No school needs to have football. And saying there’s more to it than costs and debt, but not embellishing what that is? Especially when you’re a public institution? Yikes.
05-15-2020 05:47 AM
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Post: #49
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
It's possible Akron football helps Akron basketball: Akron's usually a MAC power in basketball; to be a full member in the MAC you need football. They could cut football & find a basketball-only conference, but their pickings at that might be worse off. And the MAC seems hesitant at 'basketball' or 'football' only members.

I don't know, it's a thought.

(05-14-2020 11:12 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 09:39 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Personally I think they should pull an Idaho and move to FCS. The team is 0-10 and they've never won more than 8 games out of the MAC in 30 years of trying.

Its just easier to scale back when the team is bad. They have the facility to be a dominant FCS team but they bit off more than they could chew in the MAC.

No one is in over their head in the MAC. It’s a league of parity. They’ve won the MAC. They won the division in 2017. They beat the Big Ten West champion in 2018. They’re just mismanaged and foolishly fired Bowden.

yep.
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2020 06:57 AM by Bronco'14.)
05-15-2020 06:51 AM
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Post: #50
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 07:45 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 07:40 PM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 02:41 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 11:11 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  From conference totals, men's cross country and men's golf drops to eight members, and women's tennis drops to seven members. On the surface, it doesn't appear to hurt the MAC all too much.

Unfortunate that these student-athletes' scholarships are not being honored moving forward. Typically, they get covered for the four years (even if a sport is dropped).

Would be interesting to see what the bottom line savings are (both in the immediate and long-term).

Dropping cross country automatically cuts off part of the track team. You've lost all your 800 and up runners.

The track teams are not being cut and the xc athletes are not being expelled.

You missed the point. Virtually every distance track athlete will not go to a school without cross-country.

In that case, those with 2 or more years left will probably enter the transfer portal.
05-15-2020 07:18 AM
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Post: #51
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 11:12 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 09:39 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Personally I think they should pull an Idaho and move to FCS. The team is 0-10 and they've never won more than 8 games out of the MAC in 30 years of trying.

Its just easier to scale back when the team is bad. They have the facility to be a dominant FCS team but they bit off more than they could chew in the MAC.

No one is in over their head in the MAC. It’s a league of parity. They’ve won the MAC. They won the division in 2017. They beat the Big Ten West champion in 2018. They’re just mismanaged and foolishly fired Bowden.

A couple of lucky wins but they can't get the players to take it further. They had a big name coach in Bowden but even he couldn't turn it around.

Eastern Michigan at least is showing sustained strength under Creighton.
05-15-2020 07:29 AM
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Ohio Poly Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
Someday Akron will attain the football stature of Ohio U., then they will have truly arrived. So how are your mass layoffs and financial crisis going?
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2020 08:04 AM by Ohio Poly.)
05-15-2020 08:04 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 06:08 PM)Schadenfreude Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 12:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  They should eliminate Football. It is by far their biggest money-losing sport.



Funny, but Williams doesn't mention the dollar value of the revenue streams and whether they come close to offsetting the costs of football.

Probably because we all know they don't.

07-coffee3
05-15-2020 08:13 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 06:12 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  In terms the of the marketing benefit an athletics department might deliver to a school----I would imagine the vast majority of it comes from football at most FBS universities. Thats probably the reason a school is willing to lose some money on that sport and more likely to cut rowing, even though it loses less money than football.

I'd be really curious to see some sort of data on this.

It's hard to find because it barely exists, and what does isn't encouraging.

For example, there was a recent study done on enrollment and donations. It showed that if a school wins BIG in football or hoops, like winning an NY6 bowl or going to the Final 4, there is a significant boost, about 10%, in enrollment and donations, and this lasts for about 3 years, fading each year. Merely winning isn't enough, you have to win big, as mentioned above.

It's hilarious that universities - the fountains of scientific research - can't seem to produce evidence of "front porch" effects for football. They just assert them.
05-15-2020 08:16 AM
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Post: #55
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-15-2020 08:04 AM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  Someday Akron will attain the football stature of Ohio U., then they will have truly arrived. So how are your mass layoffs and financial crisis going?

They will never have our sustained success.
05-15-2020 08:19 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 08:34 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:18 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  Almost no sport or university department makes money. It's not all about money and FBS losses way less than FCS at the G5 level. FCS teams do not get 1.9 M from the P5 teams for a buy game.

According to the NCAA, the average athletic operating loss at G5 schools is $20 million. For FCS it is $13 million.

FCS do get pay-day games from P5, but unlike G5, they don't pay their coaches $2 million either. G5 is in a tough spot - they see themselves as in the same "league" as P5, so feel the need to keep up in terms of spending on coaches, facilities, etc. but they don't have the income to sustain that. FCS do bring in less revenue than G5, but aren't under the same pressure regarding expenses.

G5 are like someone with a $60,000 a year income who move into a neighborhood with $500,000 houses and annual income of $150,000. They go in to heavy debt to "keep up appearances" for the neighbors, spending more than they can afford.

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files...180123.pdf

That sounds like the AAC you are talking about. Places you know like USF.

MAC schools spend $1 million more on FB than FCS programs but earn many million more. Paydays, CFP money is a few million, Maction deal, marketing rights ect.

MAC schools are among the most-subsidized G5 schools, which suggests the opposite - awful football finances. A Michigan paper published an article in 2015 or so showing that the Michigan directionals in the MAC were gushing football red ink. And IIRC, one of the Ohio MAC schools has to buy about 5,000 tickets a year just to meet the very low NCAA FBS benchmark.

In 2017 it was reported that of EMU's $32m athletic budget, $23m was subsidized, meaning an operational loss of $23m. That's really bad by any standard. The same year, WMU's operational loss was a whopping $26 million.

Football is a red ink gusher at those places. Football lost $5.8m at EMU in 2017.

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/201..._1000.html
(This post was last modified: 05-15-2020 08:25 AM by quo vadis.)
05-15-2020 08:23 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-15-2020 08:16 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 06:12 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  In terms the of the marketing benefit an athletics department might deliver to a school----I would imagine the vast majority of it comes from football at most FBS universities. Thats probably the reason a school is willing to lose some money on that sport and more likely to cut rowing, even though it loses less money than football.

I'd be really curious to see some sort of data on this.

It's hard to find because it barely exists, and what does isn't encouraging.

For example, there was a recent study done on enrollment and donations. It showed that if a school wins BIG in football or hoops, like winning an NY6 bowl or going to the Final 4, there is a significant boost, about 10%, in enrollment and donations, and this lasts for about 3 years, fading each year. Merely winning isn't enough, you have to win big, as mentioned above.

It's hilarious that universities - the fountains of scientific research - can't seem to produce evidence of "front porch" effects for football. They just assert them.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.

Upton Sinclair"

Especially when the "red pill" is that, to save any real money, you have to make politically unacceptable downgrade choices. Rice University ran the study, and their consultants said the only models that came close to making sense were FBS and Division III.

Also, universities are not stockholder owned companies, driven by commercial revenues. Donors are a major funding source, and keeping them happy is a priority.

Universities don't want to pull too hard on the thread of "does all this make sense" or the whole thing unravels. Donating to Old Alma Mater gets your kid a "leg up" in admissions--but don't look too hard at that, or the value of his or her admission is destroyed.

From a cold-eyed realist perspective, as John Mulaney put it, "College is a $120,000 hooker and you are an idiot who fell in love with her. She's not going to do anything else for you."

So Old Alma Mater is not that interested in everyone having a clear-eyed, sober analysis of the costs and benefits of everything everyone is doing here.
05-15-2020 08:26 AM
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Post: #58
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 09:34 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 12:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  They should eliminate Football. It is by far their biggest money-losing sport.

And another 50 schools should follow suit as well.

Yep. 07-coffee3
05-15-2020 08:26 AM
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Post: #59
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-15-2020 08:26 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-15-2020 08:16 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 06:12 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  In terms the of the marketing benefit an athletics department might deliver to a school----I would imagine the vast majority of it comes from football at most FBS universities. Thats probably the reason a school is willing to lose some money on that sport and more likely to cut rowing, even though it loses less money than football.

I'd be really curious to see some sort of data on this.

It's hard to find because it barely exists, and what does isn't encouraging.

For example, there was a recent study done on enrollment and donations. It showed that if a school wins BIG in football or hoops, like winning an NY6 bowl or going to the Final 4, there is a significant boost, about 10%, in enrollment and donations, and this lasts for about 3 years, fading each year. Merely winning isn't enough, you have to win big, as mentioned above.

It's hilarious that universities - the fountains of scientific research - can't seem to produce evidence of "front porch" effects for football. They just assert them.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.

Upton Sinclair"

That's a great quote. There are just a lot of powerful actors - athletic and academic admins - that make more money and have more power when football is around. And with boosters and alums it is an ego thing.

Add that up and you get .... students and the "academic side" being soaked to the tune of $20 million a year to largely pay for "big time" football.
05-15-2020 08:36 AM
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Post: #60
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 07:03 PM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 06:27 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 06:12 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  In terms the of the marketing benefit an athletics department might deliver to a school----I would imagine the vast majority of it comes from football at most FBS universities. Thats probably the reason a school is willing to lose some money on that sport and more likely to cut rowing, even though it loses less money than football.

I'd be really curious to see some sort of data on this.

Maybe a survey asking people in Texas, especially high school students and parents, to identify the made up schools out of University of North Texas, Texas State University, Sam Houston State, South Texas STate, UT Rio Grande Valley, UT Fort Worth, Texas Southern University, and East Texas A&M.

Does the "front porch" advertising effect of lower-FBS really do any good compared to FCS? Does Texas State really have a higher profile than Stephen F Austin State? I really don't know. Does FBS North Texas really have advantages over UT Dallas or UT Arlington? Or is that not a good comparison, because UNT students aren't competitive for UTA or UTD?

Don't know if Texas is a good representation of national FBS comparison between their FCS football.
Seen post on some very impressive High School stadiums in Texas. Would not say Texas is the national norm.

What do you mean? Hard to make sense of your first sentence.
fixed it
05-15-2020 08:43 AM
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