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Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
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Bronco'14 Offline
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 04:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 01:26 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Television and buy money is merely a subsidy for those football losses. I get that the money can aid the full athletic department, but if this amount doesn’t cover football operating costs for some left over for other sports, it still puts all the eyes on football viability.

The sad fact is, the reason football loses money at places like Akron - and my USF - is that for all the fuss in and around the campus about its alleged cultural importance, the Akron university community simply does not care enough to support it at a financially self-sustaining level. Not enough alumni, students or staff buy tickets to the games, etc. The Akron community speaks with its wallet, so to speak, and they collectively obviously do not think football is valuable.

If they did, football would make money, but they don't, so it doesn't.

07-coffee3

The problem is its just so expensive. I'd be curious to see the number's run - if the average G5 team sold out its stadium all home games over a period of seasons, would it break even? My guess is it would take a long time.
05-14-2020 04:22 PM
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 04:22 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 01:26 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Television and buy money is merely a subsidy for those football losses. I get that the money can aid the full athletic department, but if this amount doesn’t cover football operating costs for some left over for other sports, it still puts all the eyes on football viability.

The sad fact is, the reason football loses money at places like Akron - and my USF - is that for all the fuss in and around the campus about its alleged cultural importance, the Akron university community simply does not care enough to support it at a financially self-sustaining level. Not enough alumni, students or staff buy tickets to the games, etc. The Akron community speaks with its wallet, so to speak, and they collectively obviously do not think football is valuable.

If they did, football would make money, but they don't, so it doesn't.

07-coffee3

The problem is its just so expensive. I'd be curious to see the number's run - if the average G5 team sold out its stadium all home games over a period of seasons, would it break even? My guess is it would take a long time.

Stadiums are sunken cost and it's like any other building on campus. Except more students make it to the stadium than some buildings on campus.
05-14-2020 04:30 PM
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Bronco'14 Offline
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 04:30 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:22 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 01:26 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Television and buy money is merely a subsidy for those football losses. I get that the money can aid the full athletic department, but if this amount doesn’t cover football operating costs for some left over for other sports, it still puts all the eyes on football viability.

The sad fact is, the reason football loses money at places like Akron - and my USF - is that for all the fuss in and around the campus about its alleged cultural importance, the Akron university community simply does not care enough to support it at a financially self-sustaining level. Not enough alumni, students or staff buy tickets to the games, etc. The Akron community speaks with its wallet, so to speak, and they collectively obviously do not think football is valuable.

If they did, football would make money, but they don't, so it doesn't.

07-coffee3

The problem is its just so expensive. I'd be curious to see the number's run - if the average G5 team sold out its stadium all home games over a period of seasons, would it break even? My guess is it would take a long time.

Stadiums are sunken cost and it's like any other building on campus. Except more students make it to the stadium than some buildings on campus.
I'm not referring to the stadium. I'm referring to the program's at a whole cost.
05-14-2020 04:34 PM
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quo vadis Online
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 04:18 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  Almost no sport or university department makes money. It's not all about money and FBS losses way less than FCS at the G5 level. FCS teams do not get 1.9 M from the P5 teams for a buy game.

According to the NCAA, the average athletic operating loss at G5 schools is $20 million. For FCS it is $13 million.

FCS do get pay-day games from P5, but unlike G5, they don't pay their coaches $2 million either. G5 is in a tough spot - they see themselves as in the same "league" as P5, so feel the need to keep up in terms of spending on coaches, facilities, etc. but they don't have the income to sustain that. FCS do bring in less revenue than G5, but aren't under the same pressure regarding expenses.

G5 are like someone with a $60,000 a year income who move into a neighborhood with $500,000 houses and annual income of $150,000. They go in to heavy debt to "keep up appearances" for the neighbors, spending more than they can afford.

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files...180123.pdf
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2020 04:43 PM by quo vadis.)
05-14-2020 04:34 PM
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
In terms the of the marketing benefit an athletics department might deliver to a school----I would imagine the vast majority of it comes from football at most FBS universities. Thats probably the reason a school is willing to lose some money on that sport and more likely to cut rowing, even though it loses less money than football.
05-14-2020 04:40 PM
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
dropping XC should save them about $1000 easily
05-14-2020 04:43 PM
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 12:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  They should eliminate Football. It is by far their biggest money-losing sport.


05-14-2020 06:08 PM
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 04:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  In terms the of the marketing benefit an athletics department might deliver to a school----I would imagine the vast majority of it comes from football at most FBS universities. Thats probably the reason a school is willing to lose some money on that sport and more likely to cut rowing, even though it loses less money than football.

I'd be really curious to see some sort of data on this.

Maybe a survey asking people in Texas, especially high school students and parents, to identify the made up schools out of University of North Texas, Texas State University, Sam Houston State, South Texas STate, UT Rio Grande Valley, UT Fort Worth, Texas Southern University, and East Texas A&M.

Does the "front porch" advertising effect of lower-FBS really do any good compared to FCS? Does Texas State really have a higher profile than Stephen F Austin State? I really don't know. Does FBS North Texas really have advantages over UT Dallas or UT Arlington? Or is that not a good comparison, because UNT students aren't competitive for UTA or UTD?
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2020 06:13 PM by johnbragg.)
05-14-2020 06:12 PM
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 06:12 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  In terms the of the marketing benefit an athletics department might deliver to a school----I would imagine the vast majority of it comes from football at most FBS universities. Thats probably the reason a school is willing to lose some money on that sport and more likely to cut rowing, even though it loses less money than football.

I'd be really curious to see some sort of data on this.

Maybe a survey asking people in Texas, especially high school students and parents, to identify the made up schools out of University of North Texas, Texas State University, Sam Houston State, South Texas STate, UT Rio Grande Valley, UT Fort Worth, Texas Southern University, and East Texas A&M.

Does the "front porch" advertising effect of lower-FBS really do any good compared to FCS? Does Texas State really have a higher profile than Stephen F Austin State? I really don't know. Does FBS North Texas really have advantages over UT Dallas or UT Arlington? Or is that not a good comparison, because UNT students aren't competitive for UTA or UTD?

Don't know if Texas is a good representation of national FBS comparison of their FCS football.
Seen post on some very impressive High School stadiums in Texas. Would not say Texas is the national norm.
05-14-2020 06:27 PM
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 06:27 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 06:12 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  In terms the of the marketing benefit an athletics department might deliver to a school----I would imagine the vast majority of it comes from football at most FBS universities. Thats probably the reason a school is willing to lose some money on that sport and more likely to cut rowing, even though it loses less money than football.

I'd be really curious to see some sort of data on this.

Maybe a survey asking people in Texas, especially high school students and parents, to identify the made up schools out of University of North Texas, Texas State University, Sam Houston State, South Texas STate, UT Rio Grande Valley, UT Fort Worth, Texas Southern University, and East Texas A&M.

Does the "front porch" advertising effect of lower-FBS really do any good compared to FCS? Does Texas State really have a higher profile than Stephen F Austin State? I really don't know. Does FBS North Texas really have advantages over UT Dallas or UT Arlington? Or is that not a good comparison, because UNT students aren't competitive for UTA or UTD?

Don't know if Texas is a good representation of national FBS comparison of their FCS football.
Seen post on some very impressive High School stadiums in Texas. Would not say Texas is the national norm.

What do you mean? Hard to make sense of your first sentence.
05-14-2020 07:03 PM
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 06:12 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  In terms the of the marketing benefit an athletics department might deliver to a school----I would imagine the vast majority of it comes from football at most FBS universities. Thats probably the reason a school is willing to lose some money on that sport and more likely to cut rowing, even though it loses less money than football.

I'd be really curious to see some sort of data on this.

Maybe a survey asking people in Texas, especially high school students and parents, to identify the made up schools out of University of North Texas, Texas State University, Sam Houston State, South Texas STate, UT Rio Grande Valley, UT Fort Worth, Texas Southern University, and East Texas A&M.

Does the "front porch" advertising effect of lower-FBS really do any good compared to FCS? Does Texas State really have a higher profile than Stephen F Austin State? I really don't know. Does FBS North Texas really have advantages over UT Dallas or UT Arlington? Or is that not a good comparison, because UNT students aren't competitive for UTA or UTD?
I can tell you it doesn't work in Illinois. NIU, for all of its success in football, is considered well below Illinois State prestige-wise. FBS football hasn't done anything to stop them from bleeding students like all of the other directionals.

Then again, Illinois might not be the best example, either. The state's sports fandom is tilted extremely heavily towards the pros.
05-14-2020 07:03 PM
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 06:12 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  In terms the of the marketing benefit an athletics department might deliver to a school----I would imagine the vast majority of it comes from football at most FBS universities. Thats probably the reason a school is willing to lose some money on that sport and more likely to cut rowing, even though it loses less money than football.

I'd be really curious to see some sort of data on this.

Maybe a survey asking people in Texas, especially high school students and parents, to identify the made up schools out of University of North Texas, Texas State University, Sam Houston State, South Texas STate, UT Rio Grande Valley, UT Fort Worth, Texas Southern University, and East Texas A&M.

Does the "front porch" advertising effect of lower-FBS really do any good compared to FCS? Does Texas State really have a higher profile than Stephen F Austin State? I really don't know. Does FBS North Texas really have advantages over UT Dallas or UT Arlington? Or is that not a good comparison, because UNT students aren't competitive for UTA or UTD?

In Texas, the perception gap comes more from having football and not having football. You are considered a "real school" if you have a football team. Once you get below FBS, the level doesn't matter as much. But, the bigger the school, the higher level the school is going to try to play at. They want to keep up with their "peers". Texas has grown so much in the last 20 years, and the kids can't all go to UT or A&M. So, Texas State, Sam Houston, and Stephen F. Austin have gotten bigger. When Texas State's enrollment increased to 20-30,000, they made the move to FBS. They still recruit the same students as Sam Houston and Stephen F. Austin, but they have more of them due to their location between Austin and San Antonio. My kids' high school in suburban Houston sends plenty of students to Texas State. They're not going there because they play Sun Belt football, but because it's a big state school with acheivable admission standards that is close (but not too close) to home. And the kids do like the money games against schools like A&M.

North Texas fills the same role in north Texas. They don't recruit the same students as UT-Arlington or UT-Dallas. It's a big state school that's easier to get into than UT or A&M.

There's nothing wrong with any of these schools. They're just not as exclusive as UT or A&M.
(This post was last modified: 05-14-2020 07:47 PM by johnintx.)
05-14-2020 07:29 PM
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 02:41 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 11:11 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  From conference totals, men's cross country and men's golf drops to eight members, and women's tennis drops to seven members. On the surface, it doesn't appear to hurt the MAC all too much.

Unfortunate that these student-athletes' scholarships are not being honored moving forward. Typically, they get covered for the four years (even if a sport is dropped).

Would be interesting to see what the bottom line savings are (both in the immediate and long-term).

Dropping cross country automatically cuts off part of the track team. You've lost all your 800 and up runners.

The track teams are not being cut and the xc athletes are not being expelled.
05-14-2020 07:40 PM
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 07:40 PM)Ohio Poly Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 02:41 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 11:11 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  From conference totals, men's cross country and men's golf drops to eight members, and women's tennis drops to seven members. On the surface, it doesn't appear to hurt the MAC all too much.

Unfortunate that these student-athletes' scholarships are not being honored moving forward. Typically, they get covered for the four years (even if a sport is dropped).

Would be interesting to see what the bottom line savings are (both in the immediate and long-term).

Dropping cross country automatically cuts off part of the track team. You've lost all your 800 and up runners.

The track teams are not being cut and the xc athletes are not being expelled.

You missed the point. Virtually every distance track athlete will not go to a school without cross-country.
05-14-2020 07:45 PM
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 07:03 PM)Mav Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 06:12 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  In terms the of the marketing benefit an athletics department might deliver to a school----I would imagine the vast majority of it comes from football at most FBS universities. Thats probably the reason a school is willing to lose some money on that sport and more likely to cut rowing, even though it loses less money than football.

I'd be really curious to see some sort of data on this.

Maybe a survey asking people in Texas, especially high school students and parents, to identify the made up schools out of University of North Texas, Texas State University, Sam Houston State, South Texas STate, UT Rio Grande Valley, UT Fort Worth, Texas Southern University, and East Texas A&M.

Does the "front porch" advertising effect of lower-FBS really do any good compared to FCS? Does Texas State really have a higher profile than Stephen F Austin State? I really don't know. Does FBS North Texas really have advantages over UT Dallas or UT Arlington? Or is that not a good comparison, because UNT students aren't competitive for UTA or UTD?
I can tell you it doesn't work in Illinois. NIU, for all of its success in football, is considered well below Illinois State prestige-wise. FBS football hasn't done anything to stop them from bleeding students like all of the other directionals.

Then again, Illinois might not be the best example, either. The state's sports fandom is tilted extremely heavily towards the pros.

Illinois isn't the worst comparison. Let's look at numbers for NIU, WIU, EIU, SIU and SIU-E. I'll go in order of enrollment, greatest to least.

Northern Illinois University. Average SAT 1110, enrollment 13,779, decline 16% 2015-19
Southern Illinois University-Edwardsville. Average SAT 1123, enrollment 10,704, decline 10% 2015-19
Southern Illinois University-Carbondale. Average SAT 1146, enrollment 9887, decline 34% 2015-19
Western Illinois University. Average SAT 1020, enrollment 6407, decline 33% 2015-19
Eastern Illinois University. Average SAT 1020, enrollment 6,046, decline 17% 2015-19
Illinois State University. Average SAT 1140, enrollment 18,404, decline 1% 2015-19

So, FBS isn't providing obvious benefits to NIU compared to the other Illinois directionals, and FCS isn't providing obvious benefits compared to SIU-E.

Now this has been a nightmare 5 years for the Illinois schools, but Northern Illinois has been in the Division I-A MAC since 1975 (says the wikipedia timeline), and they haven't obviously pulled ahead of their directional cousins, haven't really closed the perception gap with Illinois State.
05-14-2020 07:48 PM
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 07:29 PM)johnintx Wrote:  When Texas State's enrollment increased to 20-30,000, they made the move to FBS. They still recruit the same students as Sam Houston and Stephen F. Austin, but they have more of them due to their location between Austin and San Antonio. My kids' high school in suburban Houston sends plenty of students to Texas State. They're not going there because they play Sun Belt football, but because it's a big state school with acheivable admission standards that is close (but not too close) to home. And the kids do like the money games against schools like A&M.

That kind of makes the argument that spending the money on FBS *doesn't* do very much to advertise the school, to elevate it above SHSU and SFAU as peers.
05-14-2020 07:55 PM
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 07:55 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 07:29 PM)johnintx Wrote:  When Texas State's enrollment increased to 20-30,000, they made the move to FBS. They still recruit the same students as Sam Houston and Stephen F. Austin, but they have more of them due to their location between Austin and San Antonio. My kids' high school in suburban Houston sends plenty of students to Texas State. They're not going there because they play Sun Belt football, but because it's a big state school with acheivable admission standards that is close (but not too close) to home. And the kids do like the money games against schools like A&M.

That kind of makes the argument that spending the money on FBS *doesn't* do very much to advertise the school, to elevate it above SHSU and SFAU as peers.

I agree. It's more for alumni and donors than anything else, in this case.
05-14-2020 07:59 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 07:29 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 06:12 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  In terms the of the marketing benefit an athletics department might deliver to a school----I would imagine the vast majority of it comes from football at most FBS universities. Thats probably the reason a school is willing to lose some money on that sport and more likely to cut rowing, even though it loses less money than football.

I'd be really curious to see some sort of data on this.

Maybe a survey asking people in Texas, especially high school students and parents, to identify the made up schools out of University of North Texas, Texas State University, Sam Houston State, South Texas STate, UT Rio Grande Valley, UT Fort Worth, Texas Southern University, and East Texas A&M.

Does the "front porch" advertising effect of lower-FBS really do any good compared to FCS? Does Texas State really have a higher profile than Stephen F Austin State? I really don't know. Does FBS North Texas really have advantages over UT Dallas or UT Arlington? Or is that not a good comparison, because UNT students aren't competitive for UTA or UTD?

In Texas, the perception gap comes more from having football and not having football. You are considered a "real school" if you have a football team. Once you get below FBS, the level doesn't matter as much. But, the bigger the school, the higher level the school is going to try to play at. They want to keep up with their "peers". Texas has grown so much in the last 20 years, and the kids can't all go to UT or A&M. So, Texas State, Sam Houston, and Stephen F. Austin have gotten bigger. So, when Texas State's enrollment increased to 20-30,000, they made the move to FBS. They still recruit the same students as Sam Houston and Stephen F. Austin, but they have more of them due to their location between Austin and San Antonio. My kids' high school in suburban Houston sends plenty of students to Texas State. They're not going there because they play Sun Belt football, but because it's a big state school with acheivable admission standards that is close (but not too close) to home. And the kids do like the money games against schools like A&M.

North Texas fills the same role in north Texas. They don't recruit the same students as UT-Arlington or UT-Dallas. It's a big state school that's easier to get into than UT or A&M.

The admission standards at UT-Dallas are actually higher than those for Texas A&M.

And, your statement about UNT is not correct. North Texas does not fill the same roll as Texas State, SFA, or Sam Houston. North Texas is a Tier 1 research university. There are only eight in the state of Texas (Texas, Texas A&M, Rice, Houston, North Texas, Texas Tech, UT-Dallas, UT-Arlington). We are not the fall back option for kids that can't get into Texas or Texas A&M. I know a current high school senior that got accepted to both North Texas and Texas A&M, but choose to go to UNT this fall.
05-14-2020 08:04 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 08:04 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 07:29 PM)johnintx Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 06:12 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:40 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  In terms the of the marketing benefit an athletics department might deliver to a school----I would imagine the vast majority of it comes from football at most FBS universities. Thats probably the reason a school is willing to lose some money on that sport and more likely to cut rowing, even though it loses less money than football.

I'd be really curious to see some sort of data on this.

Maybe a survey asking people in Texas, especially high school students and parents, to identify the made up schools out of University of North Texas, Texas State University, Sam Houston State, South Texas STate, UT Rio Grande Valley, UT Fort Worth, Texas Southern University, and East Texas A&M.

Does the "front porch" advertising effect of lower-FBS really do any good compared to FCS? Does Texas State really have a higher profile than Stephen F Austin State? I really don't know. Does FBS North Texas really have advantages over UT Dallas or UT Arlington? Or is that not a good comparison, because UNT students aren't competitive for UTA or UTD?

In Texas, the perception gap comes more from having football and not having football. You are considered a "real school" if you have a football team. Once you get below FBS, the level doesn't matter as much. But, the bigger the school, the higher level the school is going to try to play at. They want to keep up with their "peers". Texas has grown so much in the last 20 years, and the kids can't all go to UT or A&M. So, Texas State, Sam Houston, and Stephen F. Austin have gotten bigger. So, when Texas State's enrollment increased to 20-30,000, they made the move to FBS. They still recruit the same students as Sam Houston and Stephen F. Austin, but they have more of them due to their location between Austin and San Antonio. My kids' high school in suburban Houston sends plenty of students to Texas State. They're not going there because they play Sun Belt football, but because it's a big state school with acheivable admission standards that is close (but not too close) to home. And the kids do like the money games against schools like A&M.

North Texas fills the same role in north Texas. They don't recruit the same students as UT-Arlington or UT-Dallas. It's a big state school that's easier to get into than UT or A&M.

The admission standards at UT-Dallas are actually higher than those for Texas A&M.

And, your statement about UNT is not correct. North Texas does not fill the same roll as Texas State, SFA, or Sam Houston. North Texas is a Tier 1 research university. There are only eight in the state of Texas (Texas, Texas A&M, Rice, Houston, North Texas, Texas Tech, UT-Dallas, UT-Arlington). We are not the fall back option for kids that can't get into Texas or Texas A&M. I know a current high school senior that got accepted to both North Texas and Texas A&M, but choose to go to UNT this fall.

Just for the sake of accuracy, UTEP is also a tier 1 research university but it accepts anyone due to it's regional role. Carry on.
05-14-2020 08:18 PM
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RE: Akron To Eliminate 3 Sports
(05-14-2020 04:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-14-2020 04:18 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  Almost no sport or university department makes money. It's not all about money and FBS losses way less than FCS at the G5 level. FCS teams do not get 1.9 M from the P5 teams for a buy game.

According to the NCAA, the average athletic operating loss at G5 schools is $20 million. For FCS it is $13 million.

FCS do get pay-day games from P5, but unlike G5, they don't pay their coaches $2 million either. G5 is in a tough spot - they see themselves as in the same "league" as P5, so feel the need to keep up in terms of spending on coaches, facilities, etc. but they don't have the income to sustain that. FCS do bring in less revenue than G5, but aren't under the same pressure regarding expenses.

G5 are like someone with a $60,000 a year income who move into a neighborhood with $500,000 houses and annual income of $150,000. They go in to heavy debt to "keep up appearances" for the neighbors, spending more than they can afford.

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files...180123.pdf

That sounds like the AAC you are talking about. Places you know like USF.

MAC schools spend $1 million more on FB than FCS programs but earn many million more. Paydays, CFP money is a few million, Maction deal, marketing rights ect.
05-14-2020 08:34 PM
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