When will these ADs/Pres/commissh quit selling out all the other MAC sports to keep football afloat?

Where is the MAC press release saying only FB teams with winning records can go to bowl games? With no divisions, where is that new MAC FB schedule with one less non-con game and one more MAC game? Where is the press release saying the MAC will move its MAC FB title game to campus sites?

I haven't seen or heard about those cuts, any of which would easily amount to a lot more $$$ saved than four first round MAC Tournament BB games already played on campus sites.

The MAC really must think fans are simple minded.

I can't wait to see that new 20-game BB schedule. I bet it will look like a 'division' schedule of old, with 'MAC East teams running a gauntlet against each other after Valentines Day, not a true round robin.

And why not 22 MAC games? So what determines who plays what teams just once ... or better yet maybe each team doesn't play one MAC team at all?

Look, let's be real. None of these basketball/Olympic sports moves are 'Covid' related. It has all been in the air for several years now. Covid just just gives them cover to implement now.

If the MAC ADs/Pres/commish really want to make a 'Covid ' statement, let's see them pimp slap football, instead of giving that sport a free ride through the rough waters.

Yes, there's a lot of bile in my gut right now because none of this is fair. It would be a lot easier to take if all sports were impacted. But that is not the case, not even close.

(1) What about football?
Nobody knows. Nobody knows if it will be possible to play football. Nobody knows when the Midwestern states alliance (plus Northeastern states alliance for Buffalo) will have their testing program ramped up to the extent that it will be possible to have training camps. All we can be really confident about for sure is that the national government won't get moving on a national testing program, so there will be states among those outside of the three state coalitions where the epidemic will be raging full force in August.

So I think the post is based on a false premise that football is being "protected", when the reality is more like nobody even knows whether football will be played in the fall or in the spring.

(05-12-2020 08:03 PM)cleveland Wrote:  And why not 22 MAC games?

One would presume because the Athletic Directors are against it. Deciding that trimming the two least useful games from the OOC schedule in favor of two more MAC games is a net benefit simply does not imply that trimming the next two in favor of final two additional games that would show up in the NET is a net benefit.

Quote: So what determines who plays what teams just once ... or better yet maybe each team doesn't play one MAC team at all?

(2) As far as the conference Basketball schedule, the direct extension of the current system would be the top two in each division only play the bottom two in the other division once, and the middle two in each division only play each other once.

The (likely, on average, since performance in one season is no GUARANTEE of performance in the following season) NET benefit of that accrues to the division winner and runner-up.

So since they say they are doing away with divisions, I would say 1&2 last year skip the second game against 11&12 last year, 3&4 skip the second game against 9&10 last year, 5&6 skip the second game against 7&8.

That is the system that the schools prioritizing basketball would want, and they ought to get their way.

Given that there is never a guarantee that a program that was a cellar dweller the last year will not be mid-conference next year, skipping one game against the bottom two is a less risky way to reward last year's regular season winner than skipping two games against the bottom team.

(05-12-2020 09:03 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  (1) What about football?
Nobody knows. Nobody knows if it will be possible to play football. Nobody knows when the Midwestern states alliance (plus Northeastern states alliance for Buffalo) will have their testing program ramped up to the extent that it will be possible to have training camps. All we can be really confident about for sure is that the national government won't get moving on a national testing program, so there will be states among those outside of the three state coalitions where the epidemic will be raging full force in August.

So I think the post is based on a false premise that football is being "protected", when the reality is more like nobody even knows whether football will be played in the fall or in the spring.

(2) As far as the conference Basketball schedule, the direct extension of the current system would be the top two in each division only play the bottom two in the other division once, and the middle two in each division only play each other once.

The (likely, on average, since performance in one season is no GUARANTEE of performance in the following season) NET benefit of that accrues to the division winner and runner-up.

So since they say they are doing away with divisions, I would say 1&2 last year skip the second game against 11&12 last year, 3&4 skip the second game against 9&10 last year, 5&6 skip the second game against 7&8.

That is the system that the schools prioritizing basketball would want, and they ought to get their way.

Given that there is never a guarantee that a program that was a cellar dweller the last year will not be mid-conference next year, skipping one game against the bottom two is a less risky way to reward last year's regular season winner than skipping two games against the bottom team.

These changes are definite for the next FOUR years ... it will be interesting to see, across the board, how many head coaches in each of the eight sports are still around then.

First, remember there are no divisions so that tournament scheduling scenario is moot ... As for the 20-game slate ... Frankly, I say they should have cut the schedule to 12 games ... played the rest (18 games) non-conference with a mandate of 14 vs. teams in Top 15 RPI/Kenpom leagues from the previous three years.

And YES ... definitely YES ... football is being protected.

The four-year mandate also gives FB a free four-year ride. If you think there won't be college/nfl FB this season, then you believe in the tooth fairy.

Again, this is a joke and the second time this commish has screwed around with the MAC Tournament since he got here. The first time was a disaster and this could be too.

But football does not get touched ...

(05-12-2020 08:03 PM)cleveland Wrote:  Where is the MAC press release saying only FB teams with winning records can go to bowl games?

A 6-6 MAC team goes to a bowl game and nets 1.25 Million viewers for their school.

A basketball 9-seed plays the 8-seed on espn+ and nets about 5,000 viewers.

1,250,000 > 5,000

(05-12-2020 10:13 PM)cleveland Wrote:  As for the 20-game slate ... Frankly, I say they should have cut the schedule to 12 games ... played the rest (18 games) non-conference with a mandate of 14 vs. teams in Top 15 RPI/Kenpom leagues from the previous three years.

Leagues with 12-game schedules:


Leagues with 14-game schedules:
IVY


A 12-game schedule would mean an entire week of the MAC playing 0 games while the rest of the country plays twice. It would also mean a second week where the only possible OOC games would be 8 IVY League teams.

I can guarantee you this - there isn’t one Division-1 athletic director of 355 in this country proposing a 12-game schedule. If he was, he’d mocked ruthlessly by his peers and wouldn’t be long for his job.

(05-12-2020 10:13 PM)cleveland Wrote:  These changes are definite for the next FOUR years ... it will be interesting to see, across the board, how many head coaches in each of the eight sports are still around then.

You'd have to be grossly overoptimistic to think that the financial hit from the covid19 epidemic is going to be overcome in under four yeara.

Quote: First, remember there are no divisions so that tournament scheduling scenario is moot ...

I didn't say any tournament scheduling scenario, I addressed how the pair of "only once" games OUGHT to be selected. Extending the current division framework would be 1&2 vs 5&6 home or away cross division, so removing divisions would then be 1&2/11&12, 3&4/9&10, 5&6/7&8 from last season as the "only play once" games for the current season.

If you think we ought to screw over the best Basketball schools by forcing them into more NET losing games against the cellar dwellers, go ahead and make your argument, but I'll let you know in advance that I want Kent State to earn SOMETHING as a reward in scheduling the following year, if we finish in the top four in the conference.

Saying that FB is being sheltered is a fine hysterical complaining stance to take if you really have to scratch the itch to do some hysterical complaining, but the reality is we don't know if football will be played, and if so, how many games, and if so, whether in the fall or the spring.

But since there is only a single CCG, and it's essentially self-funding from media rights, cutting off the CCG can't save any money. Schools like Kent that play two buy games a year are already cutting into the net cost of Football about as far as they can.

If the FB season is cut back to eight games, I would not be shocked to see the MAC go with a division round robin, one cross-division game, and two OOC games, to allow the MAC schools to still schedule a buy game. There ought to be some available, with Big Ten and western Pac-12 schools looking to replace buy games from CUSA/SBC and the Mountain division of the MWC likely to still be deeply mired in the epidemic come September.

And I remain against setting up the tournament schedule with the first priority being coddling coaches who have teams who do not succeed.

WMU already announced a 25% pay reduction for their football head coach. It's naive to think football will be going through this unscathed even if they play the season. I'd expect to see cuts in staff and overall budgets cut.

Anyone get a feeling the MAC could be a casualty of this virus? I think our days of sharing MAC fandom are close to ending on this board. It is quite sad to see the end of a once great conference.

(05-13-2020 07:06 AM)MaddDawgz02 Wrote:  Anyone get a feeling the MAC could be a casualty of this virus? I think our days of sharing MAC fandom are close to ending on this board. It is quite sad to see the end of a once great conference.

The MAC isn't going anywhere.

The league is paid a very large sum of $$$ to be in the College FB Playoff pool (wink wink). Not to participate in the playoff, but to provide non-conference fodder for the power conference teams to build their records on during the season.

This is the $$$ the MAC uses to send all those .500 FB teams to non-descript bowl games w/o the schools paying for it. They say this $$$ is spent to support the league. But if that were truly the case then a lot conference tournaments just eliminated would still be on the books. Football $$$ pays for football. Period.

(05-13-2020 07:31 AM)cleveland Wrote:  

(05-13-2020 07:06 AM)MaddDawgz02 Wrote:  Anyone get a feeling the MAC could be a casualty of this virus? I think our days of sharing MAC fandom are close to ending on this board. It is quite sad to see the end of a once great conference.

The MAC isn't going anywhere.

The league is paid a very large sum of $$$ to be in the College FB Playoff pool (wink wink). Not to participate in the playoff, but to provide non-conference fodder for the power conference teams to build their records on during the season.

This is the $$$ the MAC uses to send all those .500 FB teams to non-descript bowl games w/o the schools paying for it. They say this $$$ is spent to support the league. But if that were truly the case then a lot conference tournaments just eliminated would still be on the books. Football $$$ pays for football. Period.

Just feels like to me this whole virus response thing is spelling the end, I hope you are right. It could be NIU bows out of the conference and rest of conference survives given the unique Illinois issues that could make the response even more devastating.

(05-12-2020 08:03 PM)cleveland Wrote:  When will these ADs/Pres/commissh quit selling out all the other MAC sports to keep football afloat?

I'm not sure this happened. In fact, it feels a bit backwards. What the MAC did yesterday is stop keeping postseasons afloat in sports where they come nowhere near paying for themselves.

In contrast, the MAC football championship generates a significant gate and is probably required by the MAC's contract with ESPN, which generates significant revenue for all member schools.

You also suggest moving the football championship to a campus site. Are we even sure that would save much money? Does Ford Field really cost that much to rent for one night?

Your other suggestion -- sending fewer runner-up football teams to bowl games -- could save a bit of money, but making that call may depend on the fine print of contracts with ESPN and the games themselves. Perhaps some of this is still under review on the football side. Or perhaps the schools themselves will make the call this fall (assuming there is a football season) and we will see fewer schools accept bids.

Look: If thousands of people were willing to pay good money to watch MAC baseball, softball, and soccer postseason tournaments, the MAC would still be putting them on. The audience just isn't there.

If there is a football season, indeed, it'll be interesting to see what happens during bowl season.

We almost always lose money on those, but universities often willingly eat the cost because it's a still a 3.5 hour brand advertisement on ESPN/2, and even the smallest bowls get decent enough ratings. Not to mention your recruiting will get damaged if kids knew you're turning down those trips.

But in these rough times... who knows?

I wonder what WMU's administration would decide now if invited to a minor bowl game in Texas against Western Kentucky.

FWIW, Sunbelt conference championship games are held on the campus of the higher ranked division winner and so far it’s gone really well. We’re so spread out that even a centralized CCG is a haul for most fan bases. But the MACs geography lends itself really nicely to home site CCGs. AND your leagues best team gets rewarded with one more home game.


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(05-13-2020 08:33 AM)APPdiesel Wrote:  FWIW, Sunbelt conference championship games are held on the campus of the higher ranked division winner and so far it’s gone really well. We’re so spread out that even a centralized CCG is a haul for most fan bases. But the MACs geography lends itself really nicely to home site CCGs. AND your leagues best team gets rewarded with one more home game.


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There is something to be said for having a roof when playing college football near the Great Lakes at night in December.

If playing at a campus site would save the MAC an enormous amount of money, I suppose the conference would need to look at that. But I'm not sure it would. Given the 15+ years the conference has invested in building Detroit into an annual championship event and the benefit of playing indoors, I would not mess with it just to save a few pennies.

(05-13-2020 08:32 AM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  If there is a football season, indeed, it'll be interesting to see what happens during bowl season.

We almost always lose money on those, but universities often willingly eat the cost because it's a still a 3.5 hour brand advertisement on ESPN/2, and even the smallest bowls get decent enough ratings. Not to mention your recruiting will get damaged if kids knew you're turning down those trips.

But in these rough times... who knows?

I wonder what WMU's administration would decide now if invited to a minor bowl game in Texas against Western Kentucky.

Look ... the simple argument here is fairness. Every sport has been clipped in some way except football.

Many of the sports clipped - soccer, baseball come to mind - have given the MAC quality NCAA championship exposure over the years. MAC women's basketball has recieved much deserved attention and notoriety in recent years. Buffalo basketball was a national two-year story for the MAC.

MAC football?? A prima donna coach gets some national attention, a couple of Orange Bowl trips for a payday and an ass-whipping - but no shot at a national title.

To rent Ford Field for at least 2 days, then draw less than 20,000 can't be cost effective. Looks good on TV, no doubt, but at what price.

I'm just saying ... in these times ... everybody should have to make sacrifices, and MAC football never has and looks like it never will. As long as the commis/ADs/Pres can take their winter bowl vacations, all is good.

I can't imagine Ford Field costs much to rent. They probably just take a percentage of ticket sales and keep any money from concessions and parking. There is a reason why the conference championship game and Cleveland basketball tournament games were left untouched. Those actually make the conference money.

(05-13-2020 08:47 AM)cleveland Wrote:  MAC women's basketball has recieved much deserved attention and notoriety in recent years. Buffalo basketball was a national two-year story for the MAC.

MAC football?? A prima donna coach gets some national attention, a couple of Orange Bowl trips for a payday and an ass-whipping - but no shot at a national title.

Says MAC women's basketball brought "much deserved attention and notoriety".
Writes off the Cotton and Orange Bowls as "a pay day and an ass-whipping".

# of Viewers
NIU Orange Bowl - 10 Million
WMU Cotton Bowl - 5.6 Million
Buffalo Women's Sweet 16 - 857,000
CMU Women's Sweet 16 - 551,000

For added entertainment:
NIU/WMU lost by a combined 29.
CMU/Buffalo lost by a combined 30.


These rants are not only delusional, but have no concept of how Division-1 athletics work.

(05-13-2020 08:47 AM)cleveland Wrote:  Look ... the simple argument here is fairness. Every sport has been clipped in some way except football.

You still haven't answered how it is possible for the MAC to announce anything about football when so much about the football season is uncertain ... we don't know if it will be played, if it will be played in fall or in summer, how many games will be played if it is played.

We don't know whether bowl games will be played.

If you are confident that a full 12 game regular college FB season will go as planned as the second wave of the covid19 epidemic gets underway from all of the premature openings, you are living in La La land.

You are complaining about the MAC not making any announcement about Football at a point in time when it is impossible to make any announcement about Football.

(05-13-2020 08:59 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(05-13-2020 08:47 AM)cleveland Wrote:  Look ... the simple argument here is fairness. Every sport has been clipped in some way except football.

You still haven't answered how it is possible for the MAC to announce anything about football when so much about the football season is uncertain ... we don't know if it will be played, if it will be played in fall or in summer, how many games will be played if it is played.

We don't know whether bowl games will be played.

If you are confident that a full 12 game regular college FB season will go as planned as the second wave of the covid19 epidemic gets underway from all of the premature openings, you are living in La La land.

You are complaining about the MAC not making any announcement about Football at a point in time when it is impossible to make any announcement about Football.

The same holds true for all the other sports. The MAC didn't wait to make that decision ... the MAC made 'certain' what the new normal is in those 8 sports. They can do the same for football.

Time and time again ... especially with this regime ... football gets the free pass while all other sports take the hit.

The core of all sports is fairness. It is not fair that FB always gets the pass. Period.

(05-13-2020 10:12 PM)cleveland Wrote:  

(05-13-2020 08:59 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(05-13-2020 08:47 AM)cleveland Wrote:  Look ... the simple argument here is fairness. Every sport has been clipped in some way except football.

You still haven't answered how it is possible for the MAC to announce anything about football when so much about the football season is uncertain ... we don't know if it will be played, if it will be played in fall or in summer, how many games will be played if it is played.

We don't know whether bowl games will be played.

If you are confident that a full 12 game regular college FB season will go as planned as the second wave of the covid19 epidemic gets underway from all of the premature openings, you are living in La La land.

You are complaining about the MAC not making any announcement about Football at a point in time when it is impossible to make any announcement about Football.

The same holds true for all the other sports. ...

The size of football squads and the reliance on football budgets on "payday" games that are financed by the people in the stradiums in the school paying the guarantee means that, no, things are NOT the same in FB as in the other sports. You can plan to play men's soccer in a stadium closed to the general public if need be, since the crowd is mostly friends and family anyway and the ticket revenue is a small fraction of the total AD budget. You can simply say "if there is a delayed start, then OOC games are canceled".

For example, the MAC cannot decide whether they should abrogate their bowl game contracts as you are calling on them to do before we know whether any, some, or all of the contracted bowls will occur. Most bowl games are not located in the states in the Northeast, Midwest or Pacific Coast testing compacts, so there is every possibility that people won't be willing to go to a bowl game. An ESPN owned bowl might be able to proceed with a closed stadium, but most independent bowls could not do that.