In California it makes a big difference. 1/3rd of the SF Bay Area Market is the South Bay, which called a separate metro. Honestly that is BS, we have a connected transit system, road net and solid crossing of county lines. You never leave the metro. The same with Riverside, Ontario and San Bernadino which are extensions of LA and OC. It should be considered one metro of almost 25 million.

In fact if you count the greater Bay Area exurbs (From Santa Cruz out to Livermore, Walnut Creek, Vacaville and Modesto), then it's about the size of London, or 8 million. Toronto greater area also would be huge, greater than Chicago. This is why San Francisco sports teams have so much money, and can compete at the same level as Dallas, Houston and Chicago. In fact somewhat higher because the per capita income is much higher here. But if you look at just SF and Oakland you'd think it's no bigger than Pittsburgh, Cleveland or Cincinnati. You'd miss the real picture.

(05-13-2020 01:18 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  But if you look at just SF and Oakland you'd think it's no bigger than Pittsburgh, Cleveland or Cincinnati. You'd miss the real picture.

Yeah, I don’t think it reflects on the region. Philly DMA extends out to South Jersey and Delaware and clips northeastern MD. But if you cross the Delaware River in south central Bucks County, PA, some 20-30 miles from the top of Northeast Philly, you’re entering NY metro...that’s at least 50 miles away.

That area of Cali probably does have its shifts and differences, but it’s pretty compact in how many people live so relatively close together.

(05-13-2020 01:56 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(05-13-2020 01:18 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  But if you look at just SF and Oakland you'd think it's no bigger than Pittsburgh, Cleveland or Cincinnati. You'd miss the real picture.

Yeah, I don’t think it reflects on the region. Philly DMA extends out to South Jersey and Delaware and clips northeastern MD. But if you cross the Delaware River in south central Bucks County, PA, some 20-30 miles from the top of Northeast Philly, you’re entering NY metro...that’s at least 50 miles away.

That area of Cali probably does have its shifts and differences, but it’s pretty compact in how many people live so relatively close together.

Los Angeles County would be the 9th largest state on it's own, just behind Georgia and North Carolina. My County of Santa Clara has as many people as the entire State of Nebraska or Missisippi. And it's only the 6th largest in the State.San Diego and Orange counties would slot in with Connecticut, Utah, Puerto Rico (if it were a State) and Iowa.

I mention this because when we in California say we are following the County guidelines, these are almost State sized entities, and very powerful. State government is far from local, it feels like a mini-Federal system. It's very different than any other State.

You are right we have differences as you would expect in a State of 40 million people. But it's less than you'd imagine.

(05-13-2020 09:20 AM)johnintx Wrote:  DMAs and metro areas are not the same.

Designated Marketing Areas (DMAs) are used for TV and radio purposes. They are the areas that receive TV and radio stations from a certain city. They are used for ratings purposes. They measure things like number of TV sets and numbers of people listening to the radio. Multiple metro areas can be in the same DMA (e.g., Inland Empire is part of the Los Angeles DMA). Likewise, non-metro areas are included in a DMA. So, a DMA will include multiple counties that are not part of the immediate metro area. For instance, the Salt Lake City DMA includes the entire state of Utah, not just the immediate SLC metro area.

Metro areas are defined by the census bureau and Office of Management and Budget in the US (and for purposes of this discussion, the governing agency in Canada). They can make up part of a DMA, or more than the territory of a DMA. They have nothing to do with DMAs.

For government purposes, metro areas near each other can be combined. For instance, the Dallas-Fort Worth area is recognized as a Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA). The nearby Sherman-Denison area is recognized as a separate MSA. There are several smaller cities in the area (under 50,000) recognized as Micropolitan areas. The Census Bureau recognizes the area as a Combined Statistical Area, combining the Dallas-Fort Worth area, the Sherman-Denison area, and several surrounding towns, going up to Durant, Oklahoma. The population of the CSA is slightly bigger than that of the MSA. However, the large MSA is still the primary metro area. (Regarding DMAs: Sherman has its own DMA, FWIW)

In Canada, the Greater Toronto Area is part of the Golden Horseshoe, stretching from east of Toronto around Lake Ontario to Niagara Falls. There are other nearby areas that are often combined with it for marketing purposes.

The MSA for Southern California does not make a lot of sense. For example, Lancaster is a city in LA County that is 70 miles away from downtown LA. They are part of the Los Angeles MSA. Ontario, which is 37 miles from downtown LA, is part of the Inland Empire MSA. San Clemente, in south Orange County, is 60 miles from LA and is part of the Los Angeles MSA. San Clemente is also 60 miles from San Diego and 60 miles from Riverside. Thousand Oaks is part of the Ventura MSA. They are 40 miles from Los Angeles.

All of these cities are connected to LA through the Metrolink train service. Thousands of people travel to LA via train and millions drive to LA. The whole area is considered part of the Southland. The LA Times does weekly rankings of the top prep teams in each sport and it covers the entire Southland area. For pro sports purposes, that makes it difficult for another NFL or NBA or NHL or MLB team to move into the Inland Empire. The pro teams already here would consider the Inland Empire part of their territory and would at a minimum want some compensation for any team that would move in.

(05-13-2020 05:52 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(05-13-2020 09:20 AM)johnintx Wrote:  DMAs and metro areas are not the same.

Designated Marketing Areas (DMAs) are used for TV and radio purposes. They are the areas that receive TV and radio stations from a certain city. They are used for ratings purposes. They measure things like number of TV sets and numbers of people listening to the radio. Multiple metro areas can be in the same DMA (e.g., Inland Empire is part of the Los Angeles DMA). Likewise, non-metro areas are included in a DMA. So, a DMA will include multiple counties that are not part of the immediate metro area. For instance, the Salt Lake City DMA includes the entire state of Utah, not just the immediate SLC metro area.

Metro areas are defined by the census bureau and Office of Management and Budget in the US (and for purposes of this discussion, the governing agency in Canada). They can make up part of a DMA, or more than the territory of a DMA. They have nothing to do with DMAs.

For government purposes, metro areas near each other can be combined. For instance, the Dallas-Fort Worth area is recognized as a Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA). The nearby Sherman-Denison area is recognized as a separate MSA. There are several smaller cities in the area (under 50,000) recognized as Micropolitan areas. The Census Bureau recognizes the area as a Combined Statistical Area, combining the Dallas-Fort Worth area, the Sherman-Denison area, and several surrounding towns, going up to Durant, Oklahoma. The population of the CSA is slightly bigger than that of the MSA. However, the large MSA is still the primary metro area. (Regarding DMAs: Sherman has its own DMA, FWIW)

In Canada, the Greater Toronto Area is part of the Golden Horseshoe, stretching from east of Toronto around Lake Ontario to Niagara Falls. There are other nearby areas that are often combined with it for marketing purposes.

The MSA for Southern California does not make a lot of sense. For example, Lancaster is a city in LA County that is 70 miles away from downtown LA. They are part of the Los Angeles MSA. Ontario, which is 37 miles from downtown LA, is part of the Inland Empire MSA. San Clemente, in south Orange County, is 60 miles from LA and is part of the Los Angeles MSA. San Clemente is also 60 miles from San Diego and 60 miles from Riverside. Thousand Oaks is part of the Ventura MSA. They are 40 miles from Los Angeles.

All of these cities are connected to LA through the Metrolink train service. Thousands of people travel to LA via train and millions drive to LA. The whole area is considered part of the Southland. The LA Times does weekly rankings of the top prep teams in each sport and it covers the entire Southland area. For pro sports purposes, that makes it difficult for another NFL or NBA or NHL or MLB team to move into the Inland Empire. The pro teams already here would consider the Inland Empire part of their territory and would at a minimum want some compensation for any team that would move in.

County lines. Ontario is in San Bernardino County, so it's part of the Inland Empire MSA. Orange County is in the Los Angeles MSA, so San Clemente is in it. County lines work in most places for these things, but not necessarily in this case.

I've been to Lancaster and Palmdale. They're in Los Angeles County, but you'd never know it by being there. They're a world away from Los Angeles.

And, yes, the Inland Empire has the population base for a pro sports franchise. I'm not sure if there is enough of a corporate base or a willing owner. And, is there the ability to build a stadium/large arena and pay territorial rights for part of the LA market?

Southern California is sprawling.

County lines don't work in Southern California. They are the size of States. LA County alone would be the 9th largest state, equally Georgia or North Carolina. Orange and San Diego County have the population of Iowa, Utah or Connecticut. I live in Santa Clara County which is the 6th largest, roughly the same population as Nebraska or Mississippi, that runs from Gilroy to Palo Alto, from Mount Hamilton to the Santa Cruz Mountains (yes two mountain ranges in a single county; and this is the North State where the counties are smaller!). California counties are State sized. San Benardino and Riverside counties extend from the edge of Orange and LA all the way to the Arizona border. The city of Riverside might be in the LA metro, but are Palm Springs, Mesa Verde? Ontario is in the LA metro, but is Barstow or Needles?

The size of these counties and the powers we vest in them make them like mini-states, and I think this crisis has accelerated the way people look at them as such. Our orders are coming from the county health director (who must be a doctor) and the county commissioners. The cities work through these counties to deal with the State (SF is a county and city, very unusual). The State has a federal feel to it you just don't have in other US States. But maybe that is to be expected in a State of 40 million people.

(05-13-2020 07:53 AM)whittx Wrote:  

(05-13-2020 12:26 AM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  Damn, didn't they just expand by two recently? One was the Ottowa Red Blacks as I recall.

Just One so far. The Atlantic team(Halifax) doesn't have a start date.

So they did approve 2, but one hasn't started its formal operations yet?

(05-12-2020 10:12 AM)bluesox Wrote:  NFL should turn the cfl into its G league or maybe labbatt league, could also put a team in London.

I mean, the NFL could use it as a minor league of sorts, but I think the backlash from CFL fans having "their sport" adopted officially to American rules might kill the interest level by Canadians.

And I don't see any XFL franchise cities trying to expand the CFL's footprint to keep up the idea of spring pro football. That said, I don't think the CFL thought out their US expansion very well the last time they attempted it.

I think county lines in general no longer achieve what they are set to do for grouping purposes. But, I don’t know if going town to town is any cleaner.

Before streaming, I wish there was a better job done assessing the reachability of metropolitan markets. And, again, no cleaner than counties, but, like, if you turned on your local NBC news, which local feed was it? Did you have two? Which two or more? There is going to have to be overlap accounted for in some of these major metros, and I didn’t see why the counts had to be 1:1 or mutually exclusive.

When I used to live out near Harrisburg, the Susquehanna River appeared to be the far western edge of the Philadelphia feeds. You could be on the east shore (essentially the city proper) and watch a Philly feed, as well as the Lancaster-Harrisburg/Hershey region stuff. Cross the river, and the feed was no more. A decision had been made by carriers to feed that content so far out, so why not count it as part of the market?

The Lehigh Valley and Reading are other ones in these parts that should be counted three ways: itself (with the nearby Poconos and Reading), Philadelphia (especially Reading now since the Philly burbs have started exploding out further north and west into and up Berks County), and NY metro.

You still consider geographic proximity, but you recognize shared or split infrastructure and account for commerce?

(05-13-2020 06:26 PM)johnintx Wrote:  County lines. Ontario is in San Bernardino County, so it's part of the Inland Empire MSA. Orange County is in the Los Angeles MSA, so San Clemente is in it. County lines work in most places for these things, but not necessarily in this case.

I've been to Lancaster and Palmdale. They're in Los Angeles County, but you'd never know it by being there. They're a world away from Los Angeles.

And, yes, the Inland Empire has the population base for a pro sports franchise. I'm not sure if there is enough of a corporate base or a willing owner. And, is there the ability to build a stadium/large arena and pay territorial rights for part of the LA market?

Southern California is sprawling.

I think we have enough professional teams in Southern California. I like the fact that we have three minor league baseball teams in the Inland Empire. If you don't want to drive to LA to watch the Dodgers or Anaheim to watch the Angels, there are minor league teams in Rancho Cucamonga, Lake Elsinore and San Bernardino. There is also an NBA G League team in Ontario, minor league hockey in Ontario and two D1 schools in Riverside. With the pro teams so close, you just don't need an NHL or NBA team out here. NFL would definitely never happen in this area and with MLB in Los Angeles, Anaheim, and San Diego, it is not needed.

I live in the Inland Empire about 50 miles from downtown LA. The Inland Empire is sprawling. There is home building all over the place. There was a golf course about three miles from my home that was recently closed down. They are going to build 650 homes on it. There are still another five golf courses within six miles of my home. There is a lot of land to build on in the area.

The Census Bureau also defines a wider commercial region based on commuting patterns. The Greater Los Angeles Area is considered a megapolitan area consisting of three metropolitan areas. This includes the three additional counties of Ventura, Riverside, and San Bernardino. I think that is the way it is seen out here. The county lines don't mean much.

As a part owner of the Roughriders (they are a community team like the Packers) for 15-20 years, I don't think most Americans understand the CFL. The football is very good. Its a step below the NFL, but there are CFL guys who can play in the NFL. Guys like Cameron Wake even became all-pros in the NFL after their CFL careers. However, because of differences in the game, the field size and the number of players on the field, the skill sets of the players are often different. Linebackers and lineman are smaller. Receivers can be smaller. But, as a game, it is more entertaining than American football, and this is coming from a former Packer season ticket holder and current shareholder. It is a fun, more wide open game.

Payroll in the CFL is around $5 million give or take a few hundred thousand. The roster must include a set number of Canadians (around 20) and a set number of Canadians must be on the field during the game. This is the reason the CFL had issues when it expanded to the US. The US does not allow for these type of rules, rendering the Canadian teams at a competitive disadvantage.

The league has a TV contract with TSN worth about $7+ million per team. Hence, the league is heavily dependent on the gate. As such, many of the teams build new stadiums in the past few years to increase team revenue. Regina, Hamilton, and Winnipeg built new stadiums. Ottawa completely rebuilt their stadium. So, given the investment these cities have made, even if the CFL technically folds, a league will rise from the ashes. The facilities are too new to sit empty.

The Roughriders are quite similar to the Packers. The support the team receives is amazing. Being in Regina on game day is like being in a college town on game day. Everything, I mean everything, revolves around the Riders. There is signage everywhere. Everyone is in green and white. Finished a couple of years ago, the stadium is amazing. If you are a sports fan and like attending sporting events, I would strongly encourage anyone to attend a game in Regina. It is a great experience, kind of like attending a game at Lambeau. Visit the Mounties training facility or take a side trip to Moose Jaw and visit Al Capone's speakeasy. It is worth a weekend.

The CFL has been around in some form or another for 100 years. It will survive in one form or another after this crisis ends.

(05-14-2020 11:03 AM)MU88 Wrote:  As a part owner of the Roughriders (they are a community team like the Packers) for 15-20 years, I don't think most Americans understand the CFL. The football is very good. Its a step below the NFL, but there are CFL guys who can play in the NFL. Guys like Cameron Wake even became all-pros in the NFL after their CFL careers. However, because of differences in the game, the field size and the number of players on the field, the skill sets of the players are often different. Linebackers and lineman are smaller. Receivers can be smaller. But, as a game, it is more entertaining than American football, and this is coming from a former Packer season ticket holder and current shareholder. It is a fun, more wide open game.

Nah. The rules difference make it a bit less entertaining, IMO.

I always wish the CFL well. I've watched many games over the years, going back to the 1970s. It's especially fun watching CFL games while in Canada.

I suspect and hope you are right that it will endure.

(05-14-2020 10:04 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(05-13-2020 06:26 PM)johnintx Wrote:  County lines. Ontario is in San Bernardino County, so it's part of the Inland Empire MSA. Orange County is in the Los Angeles MSA, so San Clemente is in it. County lines work in most places for these things, but not necessarily in this case.

I've been to Lancaster and Palmdale. They're in Los Angeles County, but you'd never know it by being there. They're a world away from Los Angeles.

And, yes, the Inland Empire has the population base for a pro sports franchise. I'm not sure if there is enough of a corporate base or a willing owner. And, is there the ability to build a stadium/large arena and pay territorial rights for part of the LA market?

Southern California is sprawling.

I think we have enough professional teams in Southern California. I like the fact that we have three minor league baseball teams in the Inland Empire. If you don't want to drive to LA to watch the Dodgers or Anaheim to watch the Angels, there are minor league teams in Rancho Cucamonga, Lake Elsinore and San Bernardino. There is also an NBA G League team in Ontario, minor league hockey in Ontario and two D1 schools in Riverside. With the pro teams so close, you just don't need an NHL or NBA team out here. NFL would definitely never happen in this area and with MLB in Los Angeles, Anaheim, and San Diego, it is not needed.

I live in the Inland Empire about 50 miles from downtown LA. The Inland Empire is sprawling. There is home building all over the place. There was a golf course about three miles from my home that was recently closed down. They are going to build 650 homes on it. There are still another five golf courses within six miles of my home. There is a lot of land to build on in the area.

The Census Bureau also defines a wider commercial region based on commuting patterns. The Greater Los Angeles Area is considered a megapolitan area consisting of three metropolitan areas. This includes the three additional counties of Ventura, Riverside, and San Bernardino. I think that is the way it is seen out here. The county lines don't mean much.

I think California should create an 11th Southern California county for the Desert out of East Riverside and East San Bernardino. The Eastern part of those counties have nothing in common with the out Los Angeles metro exurbs. I'm not exactly sure where you'd draw the line, but certain Joshua Tree would be in the desert county.

(05-14-2020 03:38 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(05-14-2020 10:04 AM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  

(05-13-2020 06:26 PM)johnintx Wrote:  County lines. Ontario is in San Bernardino County, so it's part of the Inland Empire MSA. Orange County is in the Los Angeles MSA, so San Clemente is in it. County lines work in most places for these things, but not necessarily in this case.

I've been to Lancaster and Palmdale. They're in Los Angeles County, but you'd never know it by being there. They're a world away from Los Angeles.

And, yes, the Inland Empire has the population base for a pro sports franchise. I'm not sure if there is enough of a corporate base or a willing owner. And, is there the ability to build a stadium/large arena and pay territorial rights for part of the LA market?

Southern California is sprawling.

I think we have enough professional teams in Southern California. I like the fact that we have three minor league baseball teams in the Inland Empire. If you don't want to drive to LA to watch the Dodgers or Anaheim to watch the Angels, there are minor league teams in Rancho Cucamonga, Lake Elsinore and San Bernardino. There is also an NBA G League team in Ontario, minor league hockey in Ontario and two D1 schools in Riverside. With the pro teams so close, you just don't need an NHL or NBA team out here. NFL would definitely never happen in this area and with MLB in Los Angeles, Anaheim, and San Diego, it is not needed.

I live in the Inland Empire about 50 miles from downtown LA. The Inland Empire is sprawling. There is home building all over the place. There was a golf course about three miles from my home that was recently closed down. They are going to build 650 homes on it. There are still another five golf courses within six miles of my home. There is a lot of land to build on in the area.

The Census Bureau also defines a wider commercial region based on commuting patterns. The Greater Los Angeles Area is considered a megapolitan area consisting of three metropolitan areas. This includes the three additional counties of Ventura, Riverside, and San Bernardino. I think that is the way it is seen out here. The county lines don't mean much.

I think California should create an 11th Southern California county for the Desert out of East Riverside and East San Bernardino. The Eastern part of those counties have nothing in common with the out Los Angeles metro exurbs. I'm not exactly sure where you'd draw the line, but certain Joshua Tree would be in the desert county.

Needles and the other Colorado River area towns have long advocated for a split, but the problem is there is so little population along the river.

Would it work if the Coachella Valley was in the new county? Still a big gap over to the river.

And really the San Bernandino/Riverside metro area should be redrawn to be in one county.

(05-13-2020 01:18 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  In California it makes a big difference. 1/3rd of the SF Bay Area Market is the South Bay, which called a separate metro. Honestly that is BS, we have a connected transit system, road net and solid crossing of county lines. You never leave the metro. The same with Riverside, Ontario and San Bernadino which are extensions of LA and OC. It should be considered one metro of almost 25 million.

In fact if you count the greater Bay Area exurbs (From Santa Cruz out to Livermore, Walnut Creek, Vacaville and Modesto), then it's about the size of London, or 8 million. Toronto greater area also would be huge, greater than Chicago. This is why San Francisco sports teams have so much money, and can compete at the same level as Dallas, Houston and Chicago. In fact somewhat higher because the per capita income is much higher here. But if you look at just SF and Oakland you'd think it's no bigger than Pittsburgh, Cleveland or Cincinnati. You'd miss the real picture.

No definition of San Francisco or Toronto makes them bigger than Chicago.

Toronto
Metro = 5.9 million
Golden Horseshoe = 7.4 million (includes everything from York to the border of Buffalo)
Extended Golden Horseshoe = 9.18 million (12,200 square miles, bigger than New Jersey and Delaware combined)
Extended exclusive region for sports = 12.1 million (all of Southern Ontario except Ottowa and Windsor)
Max region for sports = 24 million (all English-speaking Canada except BC, although this region doesn't apply for MLB or NHL)

San Francisco
Metro = 4.7 million
Combined Metro = 9.65 million (13,600 square miles, includes Oakland, San Jose, Modeston, Stockton, Santa Rosa, Vallejo, Merced, Santa Cruz, and Napa)
Extended exclusive region for sports = 12.9 million (all of Northern California except the Sacramento region)
Max region for sports - 15.8 million (includes everything from Bakersfield to Oregon, from the coast to Utah)

Chicago
Metro = 9.4 million
Combined Metro = 9.82 million (10,800 square miles, only adds 4 small counties)
Extended exclusive region for all sports = 16.2 million (adds Iowa, Northern Illinois, South Bend, and Central Illinois except Springfield)
Max region for sports - 22.5 million (adds Southern Illinois, Omaha, Northern Indiana, and Central Indiana). For hockey you would also add southern Wisconsin, and for the Bulls you might add most of Wisconsin except Milwaukee.

If the NFL absorbs the CFL, OBVIOUSLY the "minimum % Canadian" rule goes by the wayside.

(05-11-2020 11:42 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(05-11-2020 09:26 PM)Shox Wrote:  There's clearly room for a 2nd football league. There has to be a way to combine the CFL with the XFL cities that were having success.

Pray the hail mary each and every night for the next year and it may happen.

Underrated Doug Flutie double-reference

(05-12-2020 12:01 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  

(05-12-2020 10:12 AM)bluesox Wrote:  NFL should turn the cfl into its G league or maybe labbatt league, could also put a team in London.

Turning their game into 4 Down, 100 yard football will do one thing very well...Keep paying fans away.

(05-13-2020 07:11 AM)indianasniff Wrote:  NFL should explore a joint operating agreement. Then the NFL could adopt the CFL punt receiving rules.

Here’s the deal. Absorb two or four teams. But do what MLB does.
1) play on the size of the field of the home team (so, 110 yards in Canada)
2) home team rules. (Like DH in baseball). CFL rules apply In Canadian stadiums.

I would pay good money to see world class NFL athletes play a game or two of Canadian Football every year.

But talk about a home field advantage for a playoff run!!!

(05-15-2020 07:56 AM)owl at the moon Wrote:  

(05-12-2020 12:01 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  

(05-12-2020 10:12 AM)bluesox Wrote:  NFL should turn the cfl into its G league or maybe labbatt league, could also put a team in London.

Turning their game into 4 Down, 100 yard football will do one thing very well...Keep paying fans away.

(05-13-2020 07:11 AM)indianasniff Wrote:  NFL should explore a joint operating agreement. Then the NFL could adopt the CFL punt receiving rules.

Here’s the deal. Absorb two or four teams. But do what MLB does.
1) play on the size of the field of the home team (so, 110 yards in Canada)
2) home team rules. (Like DH in baseball). CFL rules apply In Canadian stadiums.

I would pay good money to see world class NFL athletes play a game or two of Canadian Football every year.

But talk about a home field advantage for a playoff run!!!

That'd be fun for an exhibition but the CFL's rules are much more different from the NFL's than having or not having a DH. That'd be more like having a men's vs. women's basketball game where one team is using a ball they're not used it.

If you really wanted to creative you could expand the CFL to 12 with a team in London and Mexico keep CFL rules. However, you would the greycup happen in November and give the winner of the greycup access to the NFL playoffs with NFL rules in play.