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Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
(05-11-2020 04:25 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(05-11-2020 03:58 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Team 2019 average home attendance
Saskatchewan 30,896
Edmonton 30,321
Calgary 26,593
Winnipeg 26,379
Hamilton 23,255
Ottawa 22,305
BC 17,567
Montreal 17,275
Toronto 13,370

The bigger the city, the worse the attendance. The 4 teams from the Prairie Provinces are all healthy but the big city teams are dragging them down. Maybe they need a Can-Am League with 4 Western US cities that don’t have pro football.


Salt Lake City, Boise, Fargo, Sioux Falls. Everybody has a travel partner too in this setup.
05-11-2020 04:54 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
Attendance is not value. Saints and Packers survive despite small city because NFL is TV and regional.

Toronto' is a major league city, CFL is minor league. The value of Toronto is TV market and the region of Ontario.

Question: How much of the Buffalo Bills fan base is from Canada? I have seen it reported that over 15% of Bills ticket sales are to Canadians. A Toronto team could seriously jeopardize this small market team.
05-11-2020 07:06 PM
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johnintx Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
(05-11-2020 07:06 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Attendance is not value. Saints and Packers survive despite small city because NFL is TV and regional.

Toronto' is a major league city, CFL is minor league. The value of Toronto is TV market and the region of Ontario.

Question: How much of the Buffalo Bills fan base is from Canada? I have seen it reported that over 15% of Bills ticket sales are to Canadians. A Toronto team could seriously jeopardize this small market team.

I'd hate to see the CFL go under. I hope they can survive.

Yes. The CFL has tanked in Toronto because Toronto considers itself major league, and considers the CFL beneath it. Hamilton is 30 miles down the road and has better attendance.

A Toronto team would need a new stadium, preferably privately financed. It would be like pulling teeth to get taxpayer money for a stadium there. It's not what they do there.

It would need big pockets, most likely from either Rogers Communications (owner of the Blue Jays) or from Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment (MLSE), co-owned by Rogers and Bell Canada, who happen to own the sports networks SportsNet and TSN. Bell currently televises the NFL on its TSN networks and on CTV over the air. Rogers is currently losing their shirts on their longterm NHL TV rights deal. MLSE owns the Maple Leafs, Raptors, Argonauts, and Toronto Football Club (MLS).

And, they may have to purchase some territorial rights from the Bills.

A Toronto team would be most likely be marketed as a national team, similar to the Blue Jays and Raptors. That wouldn't go over well in Montreal or the West, but the most likely owners would try that.

The NFL has been leery of going into Canada, partly because it is a superior product and would crush the CFL. If the CFL doesn't make it, those concerns go away.
(This post was last modified: 05-11-2020 07:44 PM by johnintx.)
05-11-2020 07:31 PM
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Renandpat Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
(05-11-2020 04:25 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(05-11-2020 03:58 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Team 2019 average home attendance
Saskatchewan 30,896
Edmonton 30,321
Calgary 26,593
Winnipeg 26,379
Hamilton 23,255
Ottawa 22,305
BC 17,567
Montreal 17,275
Toronto 13,370

The bigger the city, the worse the attendance. The 4 teams from the Prairie Provinces are all healthy but the big city teams are dragging them down. Maybe they need a Can-Am League with 4 Western US cities that don’t have pro football.
And three of them are publicly owned (SKS, WPG, EDM). The first two also have the new newer government funded stadiums too. Even with all that, they skate on the margins of profitability as the links above illustrate.

Personally, I think they will receive government support, just to make sure there are events to retire the debt on the stadiums in Regina, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Ottawa, and Vancouver.
05-11-2020 08:14 PM
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nickp Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
The CFL is a gate revenue driven league unlike the NFL Its why the league won't play games in an empty stadium
05-11-2020 08:29 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
(05-11-2020 02:20 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  The CFL has seemingly been on life support for decades now - anyone remember when the CFL put a franchise in *Shreveport Louisiana*? I do, LOL, I think it was the mid-90s.

But it has also been around for the entire 50 years I've been watching football. I remember my dad tuning in to games in the 1970s and explaining rule differences to me. So i hope it manages to survive.

Yep, I was a kid and didn’t have any thoughts on the financials. I remember the Memphis Mad Dogs, and wanted to check out their uniforms. I also remember there were the Roughriders and the Rough Riders haha. Good times, CFL, please don’t die!

AFL: Iowa Barnstormers, Arizona Rattlers, Tampa Bay Storm (?), etc. The 90’s were great if you were a kid obsessed with ESPN 2 and obscure teams’ uniforms. Don’t get me started on the RHI.
05-11-2020 08:33 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
(05-11-2020 08:33 PM)esayem Wrote:  AFL: Iowa Barnstormers, Arizona Rattlers, Tampa Bay Storm (?), etc. The 90’s were great if you were a kid obsessed with ESPN 2 and obscure teams’ uniforms. Don’t get me started on the RHI.

A lot of the better financed better run AFL franchies are now in the Indoor Football League. The Barnstormers and Rattlers are in the IFL as-is under the same name. The Tampa Bay Storm went down the ship just about folding in 2017.
05-11-2020 09:14 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
(05-11-2020 09:14 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(05-11-2020 08:33 PM)esayem Wrote:  AFL: Iowa Barnstormers, Arizona Rattlers, Tampa Bay Storm (?), etc. The 90’s were great if you were a kid obsessed with ESPN 2 and obscure teams’ uniforms. Don’t get me started on the RHI.

A lot of the better financed better run AFL franchies are now in the Indoor Football League. The Barnstormers and Rattlers are in the IFL as-is under the same name. The Tampa Bay Storm went down the ship just about folding in 2017.

Interesting. Just remembered the Orlando Predators too.

Las Vegas Posse, CFL perhaps? The CFL Baltimore Colts.

My brother and I had some cheap jerseys from what I later learned was the WFL; Orlando Thunder and NY-NJ Knights... haha probably worth quadrupole what our mom paid for ‘em dammit.
05-11-2020 09:21 PM
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Shox Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
There's clearly room for a 2nd football league. There has to be a way to combine the CFL with the XFL cities that were having success.
05-11-2020 09:26 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
(05-11-2020 03:58 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Team 2019 average home attendance
Saskatchewan 30,896
Edmonton 30,321
Calgary 26,593
Winnipeg 26,379
Hamilton 23,255
Ottawa 22,305
BC 17,567
Montreal 17,275
Toronto 13,370

Take them all and create a Triple AAA for pro FB.

Add to that another 8-10 US Markets that don't have an NFL team.
05-11-2020 11:41 PM
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Post: #31
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
(05-11-2020 09:26 PM)Shox Wrote:  There's clearly room for a 2nd football league. There has to be a way to combine the CFL with the XFL cities that were having success.

Pray the hail mary each and every night for the next year and it may happen.
05-11-2020 11:42 PM
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No Bull Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
(05-11-2020 03:08 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-11-2020 02:47 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(05-11-2020 02:23 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If the CFL close up shop then Toronto will become the new boogeyman that NFL owners use to get stadiums built the way LA was for 20 years.

New Orleans is the logical franchise to move to Toronto, or Jacksonville.

The NFL cannot pass up a market almost as big as New York

The Saints are top-10 in attendance.

New Orleans is a small city, but it draws from a wide area. Other than the NBA's Pelicans, there's no other pro franchises for 4-5 hours in any direction. The Saints are the most popular pro team of any sport in every county in Louisiana, almost every county in Mississippi, more than half of Alabama, and the Florida panhandle.

I live in the panhandle Of Florida and I can confirm this Saints country. Stickers everywhere on cars. ThecSaintscare a great beloved franchise going nowhere.
05-12-2020 12:01 AM
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DawgNBama Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
(05-11-2020 03:42 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(05-11-2020 02:43 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(05-11-2020 02:25 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  STILL think the NFL should buy them, keep 4 teams (Toronto, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Vancouver) go to 18 games.

If you're keeping 4 CFL teams those aren't the four you keep.

Saskatchewan, Winnipeg, Calgary, and Edmonton (roughly in that order) are where you actually get fans to show up in numbers. Toronto has all the location but abysmal fan attendance even after moving out of the Rogers Center to BMO Field which would get ridiculed as a facility in the Sun Belt. Vancouver is a tweener .... prime market lackluster support but not as bad as Toronto. Ottawa actually does better on the field and in the stands than both Vancouver and Toronto and has nicer facilities than both.

Toronto is the 7th largest metro area in all of North America. You cannot pass that market up.

1. Mexico City
2. New York City
3. Los Angeles (Inland Empire comes in at #16)
4. Chicago
5. Dallas-Fort Worth
6. Houston
7. Toronto
8. Washington DC
9. Philadelphia
10. Miami

By the way, Montreal is #19 on that list. You've got to go there too.

I do agree with Vancouver. It comes in at #31. Outside of that, none of the others are in the top 50. With that said, Calgary is the 4th largest in Canada with close to 1.4 million. That's probably your 4th team as it is further South than Edmonton. Edmonton has close to 1.4 million as well, but they're both in the same province. There's no reason to worry about tapping both.

The NFL will sell itself. Whatever the attendance is for the CFL is less important because everyone up there knows it's not the best product. Their national pride is only going to get them so far. The real work is getting them to adopt an affinity for American football at all.

Baseball is not that big of a deal in Canada, for example, but the Blue Jays will still draw decent crowds. They know it's the best baseball product so you just need to get your foot in the door.

The only one of that list I would really be worried about is Vancouver. You might consider swapping to Ottawa or Winnipeg.

I imagine the NFL is watching this with very keen interest. If the NFL wanted to, they could have put a franchise in Toronto a very long time ago, but since the CFL has become a de facto minor league for the NFL, and everyone in Canada seems to loathe Toronto, the league just left Toronto alone. I believe Buffalo and Toronto could both support teams, because they both have franchises in the NHL ( Sabres and the Maple Leafs), but some under the table $$'s to Tom Pegula might be in order.

Your comment about the Inland Empire gave me an idea too: I believe that's the NFL and the NHL allowed Las Vegas in their leagues. By itself, Las Vegas isn't much, IMO, but if you added in the Inland Empire for hockey as well as for the NFL, plus at least a good sized portion of LA as well as a small portion of Oakland and it kinda makes sense why the Raiders and the Golden Knights are in Las Vegas.

Also, although Nielsen counts them as separate DMAs, I have seen Baltimore- Washington grouped as twin cities when it comes to megaregions, I believe. Looking at it that way, Bal-Wash overtakes Chicago for #4.
05-12-2020 02:01 AM
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Post: #34
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
(05-12-2020 02:01 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  
(05-11-2020 03:42 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(05-11-2020 02:43 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(05-11-2020 02:25 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  STILL think the NFL should buy them, keep 4 teams (Toronto, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Vancouver) go to 18 games.

If you're keeping 4 CFL teams those aren't the four you keep.

Saskatchewan, Winnipeg, Calgary, and Edmonton (roughly in that order) are where you actually get fans to show up in numbers. Toronto has all the location but abysmal fan attendance even after moving out of the Rogers Center to BMO Field which would get ridiculed as a facility in the Sun Belt. Vancouver is a tweener .... prime market lackluster support but not as bad as Toronto. Ottawa actually does better on the field and in the stands than both Vancouver and Toronto and has nicer facilities than both.

Toronto is the 7th largest metro area in all of North America. You cannot pass that market up.

1. Mexico City
2. New York City
3. Los Angeles (Inland Empire comes in at #16)
4. Chicago
5. Dallas-Fort Worth
6. Houston
7. Toronto
8. Washington DC
9. Philadelphia
10. Miami

By the way, Montreal is #19 on that list. You've got to go there too.

I do agree with Vancouver. It comes in at #31. Outside of that, none of the others are in the top 50. With that said, Calgary is the 4th largest in Canada with close to 1.4 million. That's probably your 4th team as it is further South than Edmonton. Edmonton has close to 1.4 million as well, but they're both in the same province. There's no reason to worry about tapping both.

The NFL will sell itself. Whatever the attendance is for the CFL is less important because everyone up there knows it's not the best product. Their national pride is only going to get them so far. The real work is getting them to adopt an affinity for American football at all.

Baseball is not that big of a deal in Canada, for example, but the Blue Jays will still draw decent crowds. They know it's the best baseball product so you just need to get your foot in the door.

The only one of that list I would really be worried about is Vancouver. You might consider swapping to Ottawa or Winnipeg.

I imagine the NFL is watching this with very keen interest. If the NFL wanted to, they could have put a franchise in Toronto a very long time ago, but since the CFL has become a de facto minor league for the NFL, and everyone in Canada seems to loathe Toronto, the league just left Toronto alone. I believe Buffalo and Toronto could both support teams, because they both have franchises in the NHL ( Sabres and the Maple Leafs), but some under the table $$'s to Tom Pegula might be in order.

Your comment about the Inland Empire gave me an idea too: I believe that's the NFL and the NHL allowed Las Vegas in their leagues. By itself, Las Vegas isn't much, IMO, but if you added in the Inland Empire for hockey as well as for the NFL, plus at least a good sized portion of LA as well as a small portion of Oakland and it kinda makes sense why the Raiders and the Golden Knights are in Las Vegas.

Also, although Nielsen counts them as separate DMAs, I have seen Baltimore- Washington grouped as twin cities when it comes to megaregions, I believe. Looking at it that way, Bal-Wash overtakes Chicago for #4.

A point that warrants emphasis. Maple Leafs fans have the reputation for being the worst fans to deal with in all of major league sports, and it’s not particularly close.
05-12-2020 07:48 AM
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GreenHornet33 Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
I pray that the CFL sticks around. I spent 4 seasons playing in the league and it's a great experience and opportunity for many guys.
05-12-2020 08:16 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
(05-11-2020 07:06 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Attendance is not value. Saints and Packers survive despite small city because NFL is TV and regional.

FWIW, the Packers were #3 in NFL attendance last year, the Saints were #7. The Saints capacity percentage filled was 100.1%. They fill up the Superdome.
05-12-2020 08:33 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
(05-11-2020 08:33 PM)esayem Wrote:  AFL: Iowa Barnstormers, Arizona Rattlers, Tampa Bay Storm (?), etc. The 90’s were great if you were a kid obsessed with ESPN 2 and obscure teams’ uniforms. Don’t get me started on the RHI.

Yes, the Storm. I was living in Tampa in the early-mid 1990s and attended several TB Storm games. They were a dynasty then, I think they won four AFL titles in six years, between 1991 - 1996. They were a pretty big deal in Tampa Bay, because during those years the Bucs were awful, baseball had not yet arrived, USF football had not yet arrived, and the Lightning were just finding their feat. Before the Bucs got good in the late 1990s, the Storm was the athletic pride of the city.

They had a great rivalry with the Orlando Predators, who also were a championship-calibre team during the 1990s. Jay Gruden was the link, he was the QB of those Storm title teams, then turned traitor and became the Predators head coach, where he had similar success. IIRC, they played twice in AFL championship games, each winning once. That was the original "War on I-4".

Exciting stuff back then.
(This post was last modified: 05-12-2020 08:44 AM by quo vadis.)
05-12-2020 08:38 AM
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bluesox Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
NFL should turn the cfl into its G league or maybe labbatt league, could also put a team in London.
05-12-2020 10:12 AM
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Renandpat Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
(05-12-2020 10:12 AM)bluesox Wrote:  NFL should turn the cfl into its G league or maybe labbatt league, could also put a team in London.

Turning their game into 4 Down, 100 yard football will do one thing very well...Keep paying fans away.
(This post was last modified: 05-12-2020 12:05 PM by Renandpat.)
05-12-2020 12:01 PM
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johnintx Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Fourth pro football league at risk of folding in the last year
(05-12-2020 12:01 PM)Renandpat Wrote:  
(05-12-2020 10:12 AM)bluesox Wrote:  NFL should turn the cfl into its G league or maybe labbatt league, could also put a team in London.

Turning their game into 4 Down, 100 yard football will do one thing very well...Keep paying fans away.

True. Canadians are partial to Canadian things, one of which is 3-down, 110 yard football. It's not the NFL, and outside Toronto, they don't want it to be.

NFL Canada would go over like a ton of bricks.
05-12-2020 12:35 PM
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