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If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #61
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
If the P5 split and do so in a way that is not violating any federal rules and regulations ... that's their business. If they bring along the Big East and/or the America and/or any other programs, so be it. If they don't, so be it. Their choice. I wish them well if they split.

There will be some programs that are included that likely are not as deserving in some respects (I'm looking my Vanderbilt program) as those that might be excluded (such as, for example, BYU, which has a massive budget, draws well, is strong in lots of sports, etc.). But that's the way life is. It ain't fair.

I just feel a split could hurt college athletics in ways we can't fathom. I can't image a Big Dance without the Cinderellas. And that's what we would have with a split.

Maybe by the time the split happens (and it likely will), I won't be as interested in college athletics as I am now. In a way, I hope I'm not.
05-11-2020 02:22 PM
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Post: #62
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
(05-11-2020 01:36 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(05-07-2020 10:32 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  ... who else is coming along for the ride in basketball? There will for sure be additional conferences for hoops. Will there be others for football? Will there be a system of relegation to call up the best of the rest and send down those who can't hack it?

Coming along in hoops:
- American
- Atlantic 10
- Big East
- Mountain West
- West Coast

Coming along in football too:
- American
- Mountain West



Regarding whether the premise is the P5 leaving the NCAA is plausible, ask yourself this: Will the ACC be tempted to kill the NCAA to get its hands on the tournament money which will almost certainly disproportionately enhance the revenue of the ACC relative to its competition? Well we have five ACC members with in state SEC rivals who would love to do that. Pitt can look east and come to a similar conclusion. As a private in an area of declining wealth and population Syracuse is probably on board as well. Just pissing off UCONN makes BC another yes. You're at 7 pretty easy yes votes right there. The question becomes can you whittle away enough outside of the Triangle to get enough votes. I'm not sure if the Triangle would be on board. Chapel Hill loves those Title IX sport titles and the Capital One Cup. So does Duke. The act of taking basketball away from the NCAA means some of those sports may not make the jump since the NCAA greatly inflates sport requirements in Division 1.

To me, the only real criteria for separation is going to have to be financial.

Can certain schools or leagues compete or are they willing to compete at the highest level?

We're moving towards pay-for-play it looks like, and then something has to change in regards to scholarship expenditures. Does everyone get a 4 year guaranteed deal? Does everyone get a full ride? Does everyone get paid and how much?

Of course, all of these costs will vary from school to school and market to market to some degree. So with that in mind, who is willing to put their best foot forward? Much of the G5 and even the stronger Mid-Major basketball leagues will have a tough time keeping up. Heck, some in the P5 aren't going to necessarily embrace this future.

Many of those strong mid-majors have a history of cheating by playing players. They won't have to do that anymore with the chance of local "endorsements"

Others who have done things by the book are going to have a chance to bring in a higher level of athlete if they can get a decent TV deal.

You are more likely to get a TV deal if you have FBS football so that is advantage G5 over the non-FBS conferences.
05-11-2020 05:19 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #63
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
You guys arguing for AAC and other conferences than the Big East are bloating the P5 breakaway. The whole point is to dump all of them, not to bring them along with the mind set of "lets be nice to Timmy" here.

A P5 break means that, just the P5. Basketball might force the inclusion of the Big East. A couple of Football Independents are possible, but on a case by case basis, and only for Football, and maybe none at all (I mean BYU is anything but a sure bet, never mind UCF or Houston).

If you expect an open invitation policy it's not going to be there. You have to demonstrate you pull your weight as a major, when it comes to revenue. And that doesn't mean matching Washington State, think more like matching South Carolina or Oregon or Minnesota. BYU maybe, everyone else a definite no.

The UCF, Houston, Cincy, Memphis, Boise State, San Diego State, Gonzaga, Dayton can yell until they are blue in the face, but it wont get them in. This is the fear of being left behind that drives the panic spending to get in the P5. There is no P6. When that line is drawn it will be brutal, as brutal as when Houston, Rice, SMU and TCU got left out of the B12 and when Cincy, USF and UConn were unable to catch a life raft out of the old Big East. I expect a lot of panic, as these schools will be looking at severe revenue reductions.
05-12-2020 01:17 PM
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Erictelevision Online
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Post: #64
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
Bill, 2 things:

1) The Alabamas of the world don't give 2 poops about about the Vanderbilts of the world

2) Football and men basketball players don't give 2 poops about swimmers and gymnasts.
05-12-2020 01:44 PM
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sierrajip Offline
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Post: #65
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
Secede, please. End the "will the A5 succeed or not". It becomes tiresome after reading so many threads.
05-14-2020 05:41 AM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #66
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
(05-12-2020 01:44 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Bill, 2 things:

1) The Alabamas of the world don't give 2 poops about about the Vanderbilts of the world

2) Football and men basketball players don't give 2 poops about swimmers and gymnasts.


Agree fully. I've noted that many times on this board. As a long-time VU fan, I accept it for what it is.
05-14-2020 08:03 AM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #67
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
(05-12-2020 01:17 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  You guys arguing for AAC and other conferences than the Big East are bloating the P5 breakaway. The whole point is to dump all of them, not to bring them along with the mind set of "lets be nice to Timmy" here.

A P5 break means that, just the P5. Basketball might force the inclusion of the Big East. A couple of Football Independents are possible, but on a case by case basis, and only for Football, and maybe none at all (I mean BYU is anything but a sure bet, never mind UCF or Houston).

If you expect an open invitation policy it's not going to be there. You have to demonstrate you pull your weight as a major, when it comes to revenue. And that doesn't mean matching Washington State, think more like matching South Carolina or Oregon or Minnesota. BYU maybe, everyone else a definite no.

The UCF, Houston, Cincy, Memphis, Boise State, San Diego State, Gonzaga, Dayton can yell until they are blue in the face, but it wont get them in. This is the fear of being left behind that drives the panic spending to get in the P5. There is no P6. When that line is drawn it will be brutal, as brutal as when Houston, Rice, SMU and TCU got left out of the B12 and when Cincy, USF and UConn were unable to catch a life raft out of the old Big East. I expect a lot of panic, as these schools will be looking at severe revenue reductions.


It is important to make a distinction between "arguing for" and "hoping for."

As a Memphis and Cincinnati fan, I understand the realities here.
05-14-2020 08:04 AM
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Post: #68
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
https://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/med...ivision=d1

"A focus for both groups was the financial sustainability of the division, a priority both groups had concentrated on as a foundational goal within the division’s strategic areas of emphasis but now is brought into much sharper focus.

“The post-COVID world has actually brought some of the issues that have been lurking in the background to a head,” said Presidential Forum chair Franklin Gilliam, president at UNC Greensboro. “Many of us are facing some serious conversations about the scope and capacity for us to have a full complement of intercollegiate sports and be able to fund them. As we take on a lot of the costs associated with COVID-19, I do think we and the NCAA overall are going to have to play a role in establishing guidelines that give us a road forward financially.”

The board urged the governance structure to act quickly where possible in providing flexibility to schools. The request will be considered by appropriate governance bodies, including the Division I Council Coordination Committee. That group meets weekly...."

Will the P5 use this as a time to take a hard line? Many schools don't belong in Division I.

Division II has grown very large. Perhaps it is time for a Division 0 with a portion of Division II moving up to a Division I with fewer sports requirements than today.
05-16-2020 10:23 PM
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BatonRougeEscapee Offline
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Post: #69
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
Heard Finebaum on Golic & Wingo the other day. He was criticizing the NCAA for not offering advice on reopening college sports. He was pontificating on whether that would be an impetus for the P5 to leave. Thought one of the main reasons for being in the NCAA was for the organization to provide leadership for the members. Thought the NCAA's unwillingness to take the lead was problematic. His last thought was that regardless, the P5 will eventually leave, it's just a matter of time. This may be something that starts the wheels turning.
05-17-2020 12:21 AM
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Post: #70
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
(05-12-2020 01:17 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  You guys arguing for AAC and other conferences than the Big East are bloating the P5 breakaway. The whole point is to dump all of them, not to bring them along with the mind set of "lets be nice to Timmy" here.

A P5 break means that, just the P5. Basketball might force the inclusion of the Big East. A couple of Football Independents are possible, but on a case by case basis, and only for Football, and maybe none at all (I mean BYU is anything but a sure bet, never mind UCF or Houston).

This strikes me as very likely. A P5 "breakaway" means just that. It doesn't mean taking along the AAC or MWC or whoever else. The WHOLE POINT would be for the P5, the P ..... 5 ...... to BREAK AWAY, and that means from everyone else.

Notre Dame of course goes along, and the Big East might get in because they are universally regarded as a "P" basketball conference, and because the P5 wouldn't have to split the all-mighty football dollars with them. But everyone is likely a "no". And that is what drives the panic spending at my USF and others. History shows that *schools* can join the "P" ranks, it's very difficult but can be done, conferences do not.

Otherwise, why break away?

07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2020 09:33 AM by quo vadis.)
05-18-2020 09:31 AM
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Post: #71
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
(05-12-2020 01:44 PM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Bill, 2 things:

1) The Alabamas of the world don't give 2 poops about about the Vanderbilts of the world

True, but two things about that: First, not giving two poops doesn't mean they want to get rid of them. Alabama likes Vanderbilt being in the SEC. They add a modicum of academic respectability to the enterprise. In the university world, that's no small thing. That's one reason the times when the SEC has attempted to oust Vanderbilt these 90 years has been zero. If the P5 breaks away, Vandy will go along with the SEC as easy as LSU will.

Second, it's not like Vanderbilt cares if Alabama looks down on their athletics, they are far above Alabama in the institutional pecking order.
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2020 09:37 AM by quo vadis.)
05-18-2020 09:37 AM
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Post: #72
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
(05-17-2020 12:21 AM)BatonRougeEscapee Wrote:  Heard Finebaum on Golic & Wingo the other day. He was criticizing the NCAA for not offering advice on reopening college sports. He was pontificating on whether that would be an impetus for the P5 to leave. Thought one of the main reasons for being in the NCAA was for the organization to provide leadership for the members. Thought the NCAA's unwillingness to take the lead was problematic. His last thought was that regardless, the P5 will eventually leave, it's just a matter of time. This may be something that starts the wheels turning.

I read the other day that the P5 conference commissioners were meeting with the NFL to share ideas about how to safely reopen.

As you say, that is something the NCAA should have been taking the lead on, to share with all the membership.
05-18-2020 09:58 AM
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Post: #73
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
The P5 have already separated themselves from the G5 by finances. Football is controlled by the P5. There are three reasons for a breakaway in increasing order of importance:

1) NCAA bureaucratic bloat;
2) Inconsistent application of rules and penalties; and
3) Far away most important-basketball money.

The smaller schools creating rules limiting what the P5 could do was a very important problem. But it was made an insignificant problem by the creation of the autonomous 5.
05-18-2020 10:16 AM
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Post: #74
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
The one thing everyone here is forgetting is that even if the P5+others broke away from the NCAA the new structure set up would essentially be almost exactly like the NCAA. The member schools especially the P5 schools create the rules of the NCAA and any new organization would be a mirror image of what we have right now. Yes, they can keep more of the money from the baketball tourny but is a few more million really worth all the headaches? Also now you are cutting off your school from scheduling smaller local schools for sports like soccer, XC, volleyball etc as well as early season buy games for basketball. Now you can only play those select 100ish schools.

It would be just easier for them to throw their weight around and get a larger cut than to break away.
05-18-2020 12:47 PM
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Post: #75
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
(05-18-2020 12:47 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  The one thing everyone here is forgetting is that even if the P5+others broke away from the NCAA the new structure set up would essentially be almost exactly like the NCAA. The member schools especially the P5 schools create the rules of the NCAA and any new organization would be a mirror image of what we have right now. Yes, they can keep more of the money from the baketball tourny but is a few more million really worth all the headaches? Also now you are cutting off your school from scheduling smaller local schools for sports like soccer, XC, volleyball etc as well as early season buy games for basketball. Now you can only play those select 100ish schools.

It would be just easier for them to throw their weight around and get a larger cut than to break away.

I'd rather recreate the NCAA out of thin air and attempt to make rule enforcement even, logical, and fair than persist with the broken and utterly corrupt "rules" and "enforcement" the NCAA peddles right now.
05-18-2020 01:08 PM
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Post: #76
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
(05-18-2020 01:08 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 12:47 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  The one thing everyone here is forgetting is that even if the P5+others broke away from the NCAA the new structure set up would essentially be almost exactly like the NCAA. The member schools especially the P5 schools create the rules of the NCAA and any new organization would be a mirror image of what we have right now. Yes, they can keep more of the money from the baketball tourny but is a few more million really worth all the headaches? Also now you are cutting off your school from scheduling smaller local schools for sports like soccer, XC, volleyball etc as well as early season buy games for basketball. Now you can only play those select 100ish schools.

It would be just easier for them to throw their weight around and get a larger cut than to break away.

I'd rather recreate the NCAA out of thin air and attempt to make rule enforcement even, logical, and fair than persist with the broken and utterly corrupt "rules" and "enforcement" the NCAA peddles right now.

They could make all of that possible tomorrow if they really wanted to. Once again, the members run the organization. They are the ones who create the rules, especially the P5.
05-18-2020 01:15 PM
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Post: #77
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
(05-18-2020 01:15 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 01:08 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(05-18-2020 12:47 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  The one thing everyone here is forgetting is that even if the P5+others broke away from the NCAA the new structure set up would essentially be almost exactly like the NCAA. The member schools especially the P5 schools create the rules of the NCAA and any new organization would be a mirror image of what we have right now. Yes, they can keep more of the money from the baketball tourny but is a few more million really worth all the headaches? Also now you are cutting off your school from scheduling smaller local schools for sports like soccer, XC, volleyball etc as well as early season buy games for basketball. Now you can only play those select 100ish schools.

It would be just easier for them to throw their weight around and get a larger cut than to break away.

I'd rather recreate the NCAA out of thin air and attempt to make rule enforcement even, logical, and fair than persist with the broken and utterly corrupt "rules" and "enforcement" the NCAA peddles right now.

They could make all of that possible tomorrow if they really wanted to. Once again, the members run the organization. They are the ones who create the rules, especially the P5.

With the possibility of paying players, no matter how the players will be played, having the A5 schools separate makes a lot more sense. The new entity can change the minimum players recruited be increased, thus really dropping a lot of FBS wannabees from contention.
05-19-2020 02:03 AM
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Post: #78
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
(05-12-2020 01:17 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  You guys arguing for AAC and other conferences than the Big East are bloating the P5 breakaway. The whole point is to dump all of them, not to bring them along with the mind set of "lets be nice to Timmy" here.

A P5 break means that, just the P5. Basketball might force the inclusion of the Big East. A couple of Football Independents are possible, but on a case by case basis, and only for Football, and maybe none at all (I mean BYU is anything but a sure bet, never mind UCF or Houston).

If you expect an open invitation policy it's not going to be there. You have to demonstrate you pull your weight as a major, when it comes to revenue. And that doesn't mean matching Washington State, think more like matching South Carolina or Oregon or Minnesota. BYU maybe, everyone else a definite no.

The UCF, Houston, Cincy, Memphis, Boise State, San Diego State, Gonzaga, Dayton can yell until they are blue in the face, but it wont get them in. This is the fear of being left behind that drives the panic spending to get in the P5. There is no P6. When that line is drawn it will be brutal, as brutal as when Houston, Rice, SMU and TCU got left out of the B12 and when Cincy, USF and UConn were unable to catch a life raft out of the old Big East. I expect a lot of panic, as these schools will be looking at severe revenue reductions.

Wrong. The "whole point" is for the P5 to have the governance and the division they want. If they want the the Big East, AAC, MW, indys, or whoever---they will make that choice. In other words, P5 will decide how their division will look.
(This post was last modified: 05-19-2020 11:07 AM by Attackcoog.)
05-19-2020 11:04 AM
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Post: #79
RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
(05-19-2020 11:04 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(05-12-2020 01:17 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  You guys arguing for AAC and other conferences than the Big East are bloating the P5 breakaway. The whole point is to dump all of them, not to bring them along with the mind set of "lets be nice to Timmy" here.

A P5 break means that, just the P5. Basketball might force the inclusion of the Big East. A couple of Football Independents are possible, but on a case by case basis, and only for Football, and maybe none at all (I mean BYU is anything but a sure bet, never mind UCF or Houston).

If you expect an open invitation policy it's not going to be there. You have to demonstrate you pull your weight as a major, when it comes to revenue. And that doesn't mean matching Washington State, think more like matching South Carolina or Oregon or Minnesota. BYU maybe, everyone else a definite no.

The UCF, Houston, Cincy, Memphis, Boise State, San Diego State, Gonzaga, Dayton can yell until they are blue in the face, but it wont get them in. This is the fear of being left behind that drives the panic spending to get in the P5. There is no P6. When that line is drawn it will be brutal, as brutal as when Houston, Rice, SMU and TCU got left out of the B12 and when Cincy, USF and UConn were unable to catch a life raft out of the old Big East. I expect a lot of panic, as these schools will be looking at severe revenue reductions.

Wrong. The "whole point" is for the P5 to have the governance and the division they want. If they want the the Big East, AAC, MW, indys, or whoever---they will make that choice. In other words, P5 will decide how their division will look.

I don’t see it being the full P5 conferences as they stand now. There are programs of minimal value in those conferences now let alone in a system separate from the NCAA. I see it being more on a team by team basis which would include programs from the AAC, MWC, indys, Big East.
Also if there is a breakaway I don’t see the conferences each being run independently, it’d likely be structured more like pro sports leagues with one governing body and conferences/divisions completely redrawn.
05-19-2020 12:10 PM
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RE: If the P5 does secede from the NCAA a better question is
(05-18-2020 12:47 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  The one thing everyone here is forgetting is that even if the P5+others broke away from the NCAA the new structure set up would essentially be almost exactly like the NCAA. The member schools especially the P5 schools create the rules of the NCAA and any new organization would be a mirror image of what we have right now. Yes, they can keep more of the money from the baketball tourny but is a few more million really worth all the headaches? Also now you are cutting off your school from scheduling smaller local schools for sports like soccer, XC, volleyball etc as well as early season buy games for basketball. Now you can only play those select 100ish schools.

It would be just easier for them to throw their weight around and get a larger cut than to break away.

The most important difference between the NCAA and the new organization, call it the NEWCAA, will be that the NEWCAA will have the designation "Inc" attached to its name. It will be a corporation owned by the member institutions. The regulation/oversight currently provided by the NCAA will occupy only a small place in the NEWCAA. The greater purpose of the NEWCAA will be to earn carloads of cash through whatever lines of business they can dream up. Their new exclusive basketball tournament is the first one that comes to mind. Use your imagination. Opportnities abound.
05-19-2020 01:12 PM
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