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Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
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Big4Blue Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
02-13-banana04-jawdrop
(01-07-2021 06:02 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-07-2021 05:56 PM)Odubob Wrote:  Thugs, fights, shootings etc drove shoppers out of that area. Will it all now magically disappear? Something to think about.

Are you talking about Lynnhaven Mall?

02-13-banana 05-nono
01-07-2021 09:43 PM
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BigBlueMonarch Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
(01-07-2021 05:56 PM)Odubob Wrote:  Thugs, fights, shootings etc drove shoppers out of that area. Will it all now magically disappear? Something to think about.

The ball park in DC was in a complete crap neighborhood when it was first built, now it is one of the hottest neighborhoods in DC. If you build it and support it and redevelop it, they will come. Just building the arena will not make the area better but if Norfolk is smart and manages development and makes smart decisions about redevelopment in the area. then it could end up being amazing.
01-08-2021 08:24 AM
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bench jockey Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
If I read the story right, this might be a joint city effort. Something that's been needed here 4 a long time. Not holding breath.

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01-08-2021 08:31 AM
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
(01-08-2021 08:24 AM)BigBlueMonarch Wrote:  
(01-07-2021 05:56 PM)Odubob Wrote:  Thugs, fights, shootings etc drove shoppers out of that area. Will it all now magically disappear? Something to think about.

The ball park in DC was in a complete crap neighborhood when it was first built, now it is one of the hottest neighborhoods in DC. If you build it and support it and redevelop it, they will come. Just building the arena will not make the area better but if Norfolk is smart and manages development and makes smart decisions about redevelopment in the area. then it could end up being amazing.

I hope so, but I think priorities are screwed up. When your population and demand is shrinking, you need fewer parcels, not more. Nothing to do with this site, but I think the city needs to focus on residential blight. You want people and families to desire to live there. That over time improves everything from schools to businesses to quality of life. The city would be better off as a whole and in the long run if they bought up residential blight, tore down the structures, and convey the land to neighbors that take care of their property and have the means to take care of more land. Over time you would have well maintained acreage all over the city where people want to live and then the property owners can re-subdivide and sell off lots to the people that demand it if they choose. Virginia Beach and Chesapeake had that advantage over the last 40 years because they had the acreage to sell off and grow. Norfolk needs to get back to that and while I do appreciate that big projects can make a name for someone and be attractive if successful and I also recognize that this site is a major gateway that needs to be cleaned up and I hope the plan is successful, I think the redevelopment game needs to be relooked at. My idea might not not yield more tax revenue in the short run, but you have to play the long game, IMO. Norfolk has the parcel map of a city that was the largest in Virginia and the attraction of the entire region. That is no longer the case. The city cannot afford to buy up the blight and sit on it and the demand isn't there to develop it. That's why they need to buy it and convey it so the good owner now owns .5 acres instead of .25 acres. If there is an entire block of 24 lots with 1 good owner, give it all to him/her. Imagine how much money that good property owner that stuck it out in a bad neighborhood if they ended up with 6 acres of land and all the trash cleaned up. Instead we either keep the blight and tank the good owner's value or we give it to developers that most generously greased the political hacks along with money to redevelop when there is no demand.
01-08-2021 09:03 AM
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Gilesfan Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
Lol, no demand for what exactly?
01-08-2021 09:07 AM
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
(01-08-2021 08:24 AM)BigBlueMonarch Wrote:  
(01-07-2021 05:56 PM)Odubob Wrote:  Thugs, fights, shootings etc drove shoppers out of that area. Will it all now magically disappear? Something to think about.

The ball park in DC was in a complete crap neighborhood when it was first built, now it is one of the hottest neighborhoods in DC. If you build it and support it and redevelop it, they will come. Just building the arena will not make the area better but if Norfolk is smart and manages development and makes smart decisions about redevelopment in the area. then it could end up being amazing.

DC has the opposite problem. It is unaffordable to live within striking distance of the Metro because demand is so high. Any redevelopment effort in DC, NOVA, or MD that is within a mile from a Metro stop is going to be successful.
01-08-2021 09:16 AM
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monarx Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
In a lot of ways I think Norfolk has improved a lot over the last 25 years. They’ve lost population recently, but a lot of that is due to removing blighted high density property. You’re right in that they have a lot of work to do, but Norfolk is moving in the right direction and has been for a while. If the school and crime perceptions could be overcome, the private sector will come in and rehab those smaller properties for affordable family housing. The casino, the ODU/EVMS merger, downtown, the TCC art center, Ocean view and East Beach, SoCo, Monticello ave, and now this... lots of good things happening.
01-08-2021 09:18 AM
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monarx Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
(01-08-2021 09:16 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-08-2021 08:24 AM)BigBlueMonarch Wrote:  
(01-07-2021 05:56 PM)Odubob Wrote:  Thugs, fights, shootings etc drove shoppers out of that area. Will it all now magically disappear? Something to think about.

The ball park in DC was in a complete crap neighborhood when it was first built, now it is one of the hottest neighborhoods in DC. If you build it and support it and redevelop it, they will come. Just building the arena will not make the area better but if Norfolk is smart and manages development and makes smart decisions about redevelopment in the area. then it could end up being amazing.

DC has the opposite problem. It is unaffordable to live within striking distance of the Metro because demand is so high. Any redevelopment effort in DC, NOVA, or MD that is within a mile from a Metro stop is going to be successful.

And people pay a lot of money to buy way worse housing than anything you see around Military Circle. If Norfolk could fix the crime and public school issues, younger families would flock to the cheaper starter homes and rehab the whole city.
01-08-2021 09:21 AM
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Odubob Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
(01-07-2021 06:02 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-07-2021 05:56 PM)Odubob Wrote:  Thugs, fights, shootings etc drove shoppers out of that area. Will it all now magically disappear? Something to think about.

Are you talking about Lynnhaven Mall?

Lynnhaven mall has turned into what military circle used to be. That’s why the stores moved out.
01-08-2021 09:45 AM
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Monarchblue Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
I agree with both positions here to an extent. In a perfect world, Ever's approach makes a lot of sense, but I also think that redeveloping the Military Circle area can actually be really successful. As Monarx noted, there are a lot of old neighborhoods around that area that are not bad at all. Cleaning up their hub could make those older well established neighborhoods very attractive and significantly increase property values for an awful lot of homes.
01-08-2021 10:14 AM
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EverRespect Offline
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RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
(01-08-2021 09:18 AM)monarx Wrote:  In a lot of ways I think Norfolk has improved a lot over the last 25 years. They’ve lost population recently, but a lot of that is due to removing blighted high density property. You’re right in that they have a lot of work to do, but Norfolk is moving in the right direction and has been for a while. If the school and crime perceptions could be overcome, the private sector will come in and rehab those smaller properties for affordable family housing. The casino, the ODU/EVMS merger, downtown, the TCC art center, Ocean view and East Beach, SoCo, Monticello ave, and now this... lots of good things happening.

(01-08-2021 09:21 AM)monarx Wrote:  
(01-08-2021 09:16 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-08-2021 08:24 AM)BigBlueMonarch Wrote:  
(01-07-2021 05:56 PM)Odubob Wrote:  Thugs, fights, shootings etc drove shoppers out of that area. Will it all now magically disappear? Something to think about.

The ball park in DC was in a complete crap neighborhood when it was first built, now it is one of the hottest neighborhoods in DC. If you build it and support it and redevelop it, they will come. Just building the arena will not make the area better but if Norfolk is smart and manages development and makes smart decisions about redevelopment in the area. then it could end up being amazing.

DC has the opposite problem. It is unaffordable to live within striking distance of the Metro because demand is so high. Any redevelopment effort in DC, NOVA, or MD that is within a mile from a Metro stop is going to be successful.

And people pay a lot of money to buy way worse housing than anything you see around Military Circle. If Norfolk could fix the crime and public school issues, younger families would flock to the cheaper starter homes and rehab the whole city.

In a lot of ways it has improved, I agree. The urban areas have improved, downtown looks nicer, Ghent has drastically improved (since the 80s) and there is more entertainment. Where I haven't seen much improvement is in the single family residential neighborhoods. That is how you fix the crime and public school issues. If you want good young families, there needs to be good neighborhoods with single family houses and fenced in yards. There are a few in Norfolk, but most are old money neighborhoods and they are all overpriced simply because there aren't enough of them. Where are these good young families going to live in Norfolk? Condos are for single people, young childless couples or empty nesters. People that sprawled to Virginia Beach and Chesapeake over the last 40 years either can't afford West Ghent /Larchmont or would rather get more for their money and better public schools. A young middle class family can't afford even the decent neighborhoods around Granby North of the zoo. If you want young middle class families to move to Norfolk to improve schools and crime, you need to improve and grow the single family housing situation. Norfolk has too much land and not enough business, opportunity, or people to be all urban at this time. It needs to improve its suburban component. Not sure what the answer is but I did put out my idea.
01-08-2021 10:36 AM
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ODUDrunkard13 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
Norfolk isn’t shrinking. It has built a ton and still has a housing shortage. But keep on using old information. It’s really helpful to the conversation.
01-08-2021 10:50 AM
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MONARCHSWIN Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
(01-08-2021 10:36 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-08-2021 09:18 AM)monarx Wrote:  In a lot of ways I think Norfolk has improved a lot over the last 25 years. They’ve lost population recently, but a lot of that is due to removing blighted high density property. You’re right in that they have a lot of work to do, but Norfolk is moving in the right direction and has been for a while. If the school and crime perceptions could be overcome, the private sector will come in and rehab those smaller properties for affordable family housing. The casino, the ODU/EVMS merger, downtown, the TCC art center, Ocean view and East Beach, SoCo, Monticello ave, and now this... lots of good things happening.

(01-08-2021 09:21 AM)monarx Wrote:  
(01-08-2021 09:16 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-08-2021 08:24 AM)BigBlueMonarch Wrote:  
(01-07-2021 05:56 PM)Odubob Wrote:  Thugs, fights, shootings etc drove shoppers out of that area. Will it all now magically disappear? Something to think about.

The ball park in DC was in a complete crap neighborhood when it was first built, now it is one of the hottest neighborhoods in DC. If you build it and support it and redevelop it, they will come. Just building the arena will not make the area better but if Norfolk is smart and manages development and makes smart decisions about redevelopment in the area. then it could end up being amazing.

DC has the opposite problem. It is unaffordable to live within striking distance of the Metro because demand is so high. Any redevelopment effort in DC, NOVA, or MD that is within a mile from a Metro stop is going to be successful.

And people pay a lot of money to buy way worse housing than anything you see around Military Circle. If Norfolk could fix the crime and public school issues, younger families would flock to the cheaper starter homes and rehab the whole city.

In a lot of ways it has improved, I agree. The urban areas have improved, downtown looks nicer, Ghent has drastically improved (since the 80s) and there is more entertainment. Where I haven't seen much improvement is in the single family residential neighborhoods. That is how you fix the crime and public school issues. If you want good young families, there needs to be good neighborhoods with single family houses and fenced in yards. There are a few in Norfolk, but most are old money neighborhoods and they are all overpriced simply because there aren't enough of them. Where are these good young families going to live in Norfolk? Condos are for single people, young childless couples or empty nesters. People that sprawled to Virginia Beach and Chesapeake over the last 40 years either can't afford West Ghent /Larchmont or would rather get more for their money and better public schools. A young middle class family can't afford even the decent neighborhoods around Granby North of the zoo. If you want young middle class families to move to Norfolk to improve schools and crime, you need to improve and grow the single family housing situation. Norfolk has too much land and not enough business, opportunity, or people to be all urban at this time. It needs to improve its suburban component. Not sure what the answer is but I did put out my idea.

There are a lot of great things happening in Norfolk, but suburban neighborhoods will not gain much until the schools are better. I'm not sure what comes first, the chicken or the egg. I grew up in Norfolk and moved to Richmond in my 30's. I came back to Hampton Roads in 2001 with 2 young children (1 in elementary school and 1 pre-k) and moving back to Norfolk was not even considered by us. We weren't in a position to afford private schools, so for us, it was either Chesapeake or Va. Beach. Both of my kids graduated from VB Public Schools and both have now graduated from ODU.
01-08-2021 10:53 AM
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monarx Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
(01-08-2021 10:53 AM)MONARCHSWIN Wrote:  
(01-08-2021 10:36 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-08-2021 09:18 AM)monarx Wrote:  In a lot of ways I think Norfolk has improved a lot over the last 25 years. They’ve lost population recently, but a lot of that is due to removing blighted high density property. You’re right in that they have a lot of work to do, but Norfolk is moving in the right direction and has been for a while. If the school and crime perceptions could be overcome, the private sector will come in and rehab those smaller properties for affordable family housing. The casino, the ODU/EVMS merger, downtown, the TCC art center, Ocean view and East Beach, SoCo, Monticello ave, and now this... lots of good things happening.

(01-08-2021 09:21 AM)monarx Wrote:  
(01-08-2021 09:16 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-08-2021 08:24 AM)BigBlueMonarch Wrote:  The ball park in DC was in a complete crap neighborhood when it was first built, now it is one of the hottest neighborhoods in DC. If you build it and support it and redevelop it, they will come. Just building the arena will not make the area better but if Norfolk is smart and manages development and makes smart decisions about redevelopment in the area. then it could end up being amazing.

DC has the opposite problem. It is unaffordable to live within striking distance of the Metro because demand is so high. Any redevelopment effort in DC, NOVA, or MD that is within a mile from a Metro stop is going to be successful.

And people pay a lot of money to buy way worse housing than anything you see around Military Circle. If Norfolk could fix the crime and public school issues, younger families would flock to the cheaper starter homes and rehab the whole city.

In a lot of ways it has improved, I agree. The urban areas have improved, downtown looks nicer, Ghent has drastically improved (since the 80s) and there is more entertainment. Where I haven't seen much improvement is in the single family residential neighborhoods. That is how you fix the crime and public school issues. If you want good young families, there needs to be good neighborhoods with single family houses and fenced in yards. There are a few in Norfolk, but most are old money neighborhoods and they are all overpriced simply because there aren't enough of them. Where are these good young families going to live in Norfolk? Condos are for single people, young childless couples or empty nesters. People that sprawled to Virginia Beach and Chesapeake over the last 40 years either can't afford West Ghent /Larchmont or would rather get more for their money and better public schools. A young middle class family can't afford even the decent neighborhoods around Granby North of the zoo. If you want young middle class families to move to Norfolk to improve schools and crime, you need to improve and grow the single family housing situation. Norfolk has too much land and not enough business, opportunity, or people to be all urban at this time. It needs to improve its suburban component. Not sure what the answer is but I did put out my idea.

There are a lot of great things happening in Norfolk, but suburban neighborhoods will not gain much until the schools are better. I'm not sure what comes first, the chicken or the egg. I grew up in Norfolk and moved to Richmond in my 30's. I came back to Hampton Roads in 2001 with 2 young children (1 in elementary school and 1 pre-k) and moving back to Norfolk was not even considered by us. We weren't in a position to afford private schools, so for us, it was either Chesapeake or Va. Beach. Both of my kids graduated from VB Public Schools and both have now graduated from ODU.

I no longer live in the area, but when I did it was near Granby High School/Wards Corner. I loved my neighborhood there. I didnt have kids then either, but I had neighbors who lived there specifically for access to Granby HS. Word was at the time that Granby and Maury were pretty good schools if you got into specific academic programs, the others not so much. I now have a friend whose child goes to Norview for a special engineering program. They love it there. Maybe things are getting better there too. But you are correct, until the perception of the school system and public safety improve, even the younger millennial families starting out will be hesitant to move in. And they are exactly the people that can make the turnaround we desire happen. Moreso than corporate developers.
01-08-2021 11:04 AM
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
(01-08-2021 10:53 AM)MONARCHSWIN Wrote:  
(01-08-2021 10:36 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-08-2021 09:18 AM)monarx Wrote:  In a lot of ways I think Norfolk has improved a lot over the last 25 years. They’ve lost population recently, but a lot of that is due to removing blighted high density property. You’re right in that they have a lot of work to do, but Norfolk is moving in the right direction and has been for a while. If the school and crime perceptions could be overcome, the private sector will come in and rehab those smaller properties for affordable family housing. The casino, the ODU/EVMS merger, downtown, the TCC art center, Ocean view and East Beach, SoCo, Monticello ave, and now this... lots of good things happening.

(01-08-2021 09:21 AM)monarx Wrote:  
(01-08-2021 09:16 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-08-2021 08:24 AM)BigBlueMonarch Wrote:  The ball park in DC was in a complete crap neighborhood when it was first built, now it is one of the hottest neighborhoods in DC. If you build it and support it and redevelop it, they will come. Just building the arena will not make the area better but if Norfolk is smart and manages development and makes smart decisions about redevelopment in the area. then it could end up being amazing.

DC has the opposite problem. It is unaffordable to live within striking distance of the Metro because demand is so high. Any redevelopment effort in DC, NOVA, or MD that is within a mile from a Metro stop is going to be successful.

And people pay a lot of money to buy way worse housing than anything you see around Military Circle. If Norfolk could fix the crime and public school issues, younger families would flock to the cheaper starter homes and rehab the whole city.

In a lot of ways it has improved, I agree. The urban areas have improved, downtown looks nicer, Ghent has drastically improved (since the 80s) and there is more entertainment. Where I haven't seen much improvement is in the single family residential neighborhoods. That is how you fix the crime and public school issues. If you want good young families, there needs to be good neighborhoods with single family houses and fenced in yards. There are a few in Norfolk, but most are old money neighborhoods and they are all overpriced simply because there aren't enough of them. Where are these good young families going to live in Norfolk? Condos are for single people, young childless couples or empty nesters. People that sprawled to Virginia Beach and Chesapeake over the last 40 years either can't afford West Ghent /Larchmont or would rather get more for their money and better public schools. A young middle class family can't afford even the decent neighborhoods around Granby North of the zoo. If you want young middle class families to move to Norfolk to improve schools and crime, you need to improve and grow the single family housing situation. Norfolk has too much land and not enough business, opportunity, or people to be all urban at this time. It needs to improve its suburban component. Not sure what the answer is but I did put out my idea.

There are a lot of great things happening in Norfolk, but suburban neighborhoods will not gain much until the schools are better. I'm not sure what comes first, the chicken or the egg. I grew up in Norfolk and moved to Richmond in my 30's. I came back to Hampton Roads in 2001 with 2 young children (1 in elementary school and 1 pre-k) and moving back to Norfolk was not even considered by us. We weren't in a position to afford private schools, so for us, it was either Chesapeake or Va. Beach. Both of my kids graduated from VB Public Schools and both have now graduated from ODU.

I agree and I don't know the right answer. This isn't a problem unique to Norfolk and I am not aware of any that have been successful in solving it. I do think seizing blighted property and conveying it to responsible adjacent owners with skin in the game is worth trying. Such a program would also incentivize people to invest and clean up.

Good conversation.
01-08-2021 11:21 AM
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EverRespect Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
(01-08-2021 10:50 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  Norfolk isn’t shrinking. It has built a ton and still has a housing shortage. But keep on using old information. It’s really helpful to the conversation.

The population of Norfolk is shrinking. So as it is building a ton, mostly urban, its suburbs continue to be gutted and more people are moving out than in. And yes, there is a housing shortage, which was my underlying point, there is almost nowhere for a middle income single family to live. Meanwhile, there is an overage of vacant, blight, and very low income housing. Vacancy rates in Norfolk are over 20% higher the state average and over 15% higher than the national average. The housing shortage is in rural and suburban residential.
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2021 11:40 AM by EverRespect.)
01-08-2021 11:38 AM
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Gilesfan Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
Norfolk has a population of 248,416. in 2010 the population was 242,803. in 2025, the population is projected to be 249,790.

Vacant housing units represent 9.9% in Norfolk. Vacant housing statewide is 9.3%. Vacant housing in the United States is 11.3%.

Stop.
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2021 12:16 PM by Gilesfan.)
01-08-2021 12:13 PM
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ODUDrunkard13 Offline
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RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
(01-08-2021 11:38 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-08-2021 10:50 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  Norfolk isn’t shrinking. It has built a ton and still has a housing shortage. But keep on using old information. It’s really helpful to the conversation.

The population of Norfolk is shrinking. So as it is building a ton, mostly urban, its suburbs continue to be gutted and more people are moving out than in. And yes, there is a housing shortage, which was my underlying point, there is almost nowhere for a middle income single family to live. Meanwhile, there is an overage of vacant, blight, and very low income housing. Vacancy rates in Norfolk are over 20% higher the state average and over 15% higher than the national average. The housing shortage is in rural and suburban residential.

According to this article from last year, Norfolk’s population has gone up 1% over the last decade. That’s not shrinking. It’s flat. It’s being outpaced by other local cities which is not ideal. But it’s not shrinking.

https://www.pilotonline.com/news/vp-nw-c...story.html

Can you provide your source for the vacancy rate data? Because everything I’ve found doesn’t support your claims.
(This post was last modified: 01-08-2021 12:25 PM by ODUDrunkard13.)
01-08-2021 12:23 PM
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EverRespect Offline
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RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
(01-08-2021 12:13 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Norfolk has a population of 248,416. in 2010 the population was 242,803. in 2025, the population is projected to be 249,790.

Vacant housing units represent 9.9% in Norfolk. Vacant housing statewide is 9.3%. Vacant housing in the United States is 11.3%.

Stop.

Rental vacancy rate is at 7.14%, US 5.97%, and statewide 5.53%.

In 1970 at its peak it was 307,951. The 2019 population was 242,742... latest numbers according to Wiki. Pretty flat from 2010, but with all the building and urban revitalization, that means a significant portion of the city is still emptying. That is the problem I am trying to address.
01-08-2021 12:40 PM
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monarx Offline
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RE: Norfolk Buys Military Circle Mall
(01-08-2021 12:40 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  
(01-08-2021 12:13 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Norfolk has a population of 248,416. in 2010 the population was 242,803. in 2025, the population is projected to be 249,790.

Vacant housing units represent 9.9% in Norfolk. Vacant housing statewide is 9.3%. Vacant housing in the United States is 11.3%.

Stop.

Rental vacancy rate is at 7.14%, US 5.97%, and statewide 5.53%.

In 1970 at its peak it was 307,951. The 2019 population was 242,742... latest numbers according to Wiki. Pretty flat from 2010, but with all the building and urban revitalization, that means a significant portion of the city is still emptying. That is the problem I am trying to address.

It’s been de-densifying, which outside of downtown is a good thing.
01-08-2021 12:50 PM
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