Research idea from another thread...

How does Memphis basketball compare to other programs regarding success under different coaches?

First, set the criteria for success. These are a bit arbitrary, but fair I think. Coaches must have:
1. Minimum 4 years with the program
2. Won at least 2/3 of games
3. Minimum 2 NCAA appearances (or NIT prior to 1975)
4. Minimum 1 post-season run to at least the national quarter-finals

Memphis has 4 coaches who qualify: Vanatta, Bartow, Kirk, Calipari. (Finch does not qualify due to win %, and Pastner does not qualify due to lacking a deep NCAA run.)

Blue-bloods:
Kentucky leads the way with 6 coaches
Kansas - 4 coaches
UNC - 3
UCLA - 3
Syracuse - 3
Indiana - 2
Duke - 2
Michigan State - 1

Rivals:
Louisville - 3
Cincinnati - 3
UConn - 2
UTK - 2
Arkansas - 2
Houston - 1
Ole Miss - ZERO

So, 4 different successful coaches at Memphis ranks out pretty darn well.

The difference for Memphis compared to most of these other programs, is the tenure of the coach. Memphis longest retained successful coach was Calipari at 9 seasons. Every blue blood program + Louisville + UConn has at least one successful coach that was retained for 25 years or more.

Retention is always the challenge with Memphis. No doubt, the blue bloods would have many more coaches on the list if they had turnover comparable to ours. But bottom line is we've done decent. Just have to get it back on track with Penny.

As much as we hate to believe it, P5 status matters more than ever these days. Memphis, unfortunately has so many "what if" scenarios that worked against us for the past 60ish years.

What if Gene Bartow hadn't had a contract dispute and didn't leave for UCLA?
What if the SEC decided to add us an FSU in the 70s?
What if Dockery and Greenhill hadn't perished?
What if Cal had stayed?
What if Tony Harris had signed with Memphis under Finch?
What if we had gotten included with Cincinnati and Louisville in the original BE expansion?
What if the B12 expanded?

Always seems like we're Charlie Brown chasing the football when it comes to making that step up to a P5 conference. That ultimately is why retention is always a challenge in Memphis. Football and until Penny, basketball. We need Penny to be successful in the worst way to reverse this. Silverfield being successful and staying true to his word of "wanting to be here" is also important. (even though I take that statement with a grain of salt, you say what you gotta say to get the job)

(04-29-2020 11:35 AM)WColt45 Wrote:  As much as we hate to believe it, P5 status matters more than ever these days. Memphis, unfortunately has so many "what if" scenarios that worked against us for the past 60ish years.

What if Gene Bartow hadn't had a contract dispute and didn't leave for UCLA?
What if the SEC decided to add us an FSU in the 70s?
What if Dockery and Greenhill hadn't perished?
What if Cal had stayed?
What if Tony Harris had signed with Memphis under Finch?
What if we had gotten included with Cincinnati and Louisville in the original BE expansion?
What if the B12 expanded?

Always seems like we're Charlie Brown chasing the football when it comes to making that step up to a P5 conference. That ultimately is why retention is always a challenge in Memphis. Football and until Penny, basketball. We need Penny to be successful in the worst way to reverse this. Silverfield being successful and staying true to his word of "wanting to be here" is also important. (even though I take that statement with a grain of salt, you say what you gotta say to get the job)

Illinois --but I agree with your whats and ?s

(04-29-2020 01:41 PM)jsw3ent Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 11:35 AM)WColt45 Wrote:  As much as we hate to believe it, P5 status matters more than ever these days. Memphis, unfortunately has so many "what if" scenarios that worked against us for the past 60ish years.

What if Gene Bartow hadn't had a contract dispute and didn't leave for UCLA?
What if the SEC decided to add us an FSU in the 70s?
What if Dockery and Greenhill hadn't perished?
What if Cal had stayed?
What if Tony Harris had signed with Memphis under Finch?
What if we had gotten included with Cincinnati and Louisville in the original BE expansion?
What if the B12 expanded?

Always seems like we're Charlie Brown chasing the football when it comes to making that step up to a P5 conference. That ultimately is why retention is always a challenge in Memphis. Football and until Penny, basketball. We need Penny to be successful in the worst way to reverse this. Silverfield being successful and staying true to his word of "wanting to be here" is also important. (even though I take that statement with a grain of salt, you say what you gotta say to get the job)

Illinois --but I agree with your whats and ?s

And it was more than a contract dispute. Remember Tree Washington not wanting to stand for the national anthem? I'll leave it at that.

(04-29-2020 05:39 PM)Hernando Hills Tiger Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 01:41 PM)jsw3ent Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 11:35 AM)WColt45 Wrote:  As much as we hate to believe it, P5 status matters more than ever these days. Memphis, unfortunately has so many "what if" scenarios that worked against us for the past 60ish years.

What if Gene Bartow hadn't had a contract dispute and didn't leave for UCLA?
What if the SEC decided to add us an FSU in the 70s?
What if Dockery and Greenhill hadn't perished?
What if Cal had stayed?
What if Tony Harris had signed with Memphis under Finch?
What if we had gotten included with Cincinnati and Louisville in the original BE expansion?
What if the B12 expanded?

Always seems like we're Charlie Brown chasing the football when it comes to making that step up to a P5 conference. That ultimately is why retention is always a challenge in Memphis. Football and until Penny, basketball. We need Penny to be successful in the worst way to reverse this. Silverfield being successful and staying true to his word of "wanting to be here" is also important. (even though I take that statement with a grain of salt, you say what you gotta say to get the job)

Illinois --but I agree with your whats and ?s

And it was more than a contract dispute. Remember Tree Washington not wanting to stand for the national anthem? I'll leave it at that.

I do now---I had forgotten .

(04-29-2020 01:41 PM)jsw3ent Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 11:35 AM)WColt45 Wrote:  As much as we hate to believe it, P5 status matters more than ever these days. Memphis, unfortunately has so many "what if" scenarios that worked against us for the past 60ish years.

What if Gene Bartow hadn't had a contract dispute and didn't leave for UCLA?
What if the SEC decided to add us an FSU in the 70s?
What if Dockery and Greenhill hadn't perished?
What if Cal had stayed?
What if Tony Harris had signed with Memphis under Finch?
What if we had gotten included with Cincinnati and Louisville in the original BE expansion?
What if the B12 expanded?

Always seems like we're Charlie Brown chasing the football when it comes to making that step up to a P5 conference. That ultimately is why retention is always a challenge in Memphis. Football and until Penny, basketball. We need Penny to be successful in the worst way to reverse this. Silverfield being successful and staying true to his word of "wanting to be here" is also important. (even though I take that statement with a grain of salt, you say what you gotta say to get the job)

Illinois --but I agree with your whats and ?s

I would substitute Gray/Alexander for Tony Harris. If Gray/Alexander doesn't happen and Vaughn didn't get hurt, I think you finish the 80's with two Elite Eight or higher seasons and carry straight into Penny's Elite Eight; Vaughn doesn't get hurt, 1993 is Final Four. 12 years of sustained success would have given Memphis a much higher profile and been able to attract a higher level successor to Finch than Tic.

If a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his azz every time he jumps.

I think it's too early to say basketball is back on track.

It may or may not be. I certainly hope that it is.

(04-29-2020 05:39 PM)Hernando Hills Tiger Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 01:41 PM)jsw3ent Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 11:35 AM)WColt45 Wrote:  As much as we hate to believe it, P5 status matters more than ever these days. Memphis, unfortunately has so many "what if" scenarios that worked against us for the past 60ish years.

What if Gene Bartow hadn't had a contract dispute and didn't leave for UCLA?
What if the SEC decided to add us an FSU in the 70s?
What if Dockery and Greenhill hadn't perished?
What if Cal had stayed?
What if Tony Harris had signed with Memphis under Finch?
What if we had gotten included with Cincinnati and Louisville in the original BE expansion?
What if the B12 expanded?

Always seems like we're Charlie Brown chasing the football when it comes to making that step up to a P5 conference. That ultimately is why retention is always a challenge in Memphis. Football and until Penny, basketball. We need Penny to be successful in the worst way to reverse this. Silverfield being successful and staying true to his word of "wanting to be here" is also important. (even though I take that statement with a grain of salt, you say what you gotta say to get the job)

Illinois --but I agree with your whats and ?s

And it was more than a contract dispute. Remember Tree Washington not wanting to stand for the national anthem? I'll leave it at that.

Thanks, way before my time and I always thought he went to UCLA over a contract dispute.

(04-30-2020 10:08 AM)WColt45 Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 05:39 PM)Hernando Hills Tiger Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 01:41 PM)jsw3ent Wrote:  

(04-29-2020 11:35 AM)WColt45 Wrote:  As much as we hate to believe it, P5 status matters more than ever these days. Memphis, unfortunately has so many "what if" scenarios that worked against us for the past 60ish years.

What if Gene Bartow hadn't had a contract dispute and didn't leave for UCLA?
What if the SEC decided to add us an FSU in the 70s?
What if Dockery and Greenhill hadn't perished?
What if Cal had stayed?
What if Tony Harris had signed with Memphis under Finch?
What if we had gotten included with Cincinnati and Louisville in the original BE expansion?
What if the B12 expanded?

Always seems like we're Charlie Brown chasing the football when it comes to making that step up to a P5 conference. That ultimately is why retention is always a challenge in Memphis. Football and until Penny, basketball. We need Penny to be successful in the worst way to reverse this. Silverfield being successful and staying true to his word of "wanting to be here" is also important. (even though I take that statement with a grain of salt, you say what you gotta say to get the job)

Illinois --but I agree with your whats and ?s

And it was more than a contract dispute. Remember Tree Washington not wanting to stand for the national anthem? I'll leave it at that.

Thanks, way before my time and I always thought he went to UCLA over a contract dispute.

As stated above he was at Illinois for one year and then replaced Wooden.

You can play the "what if " game forever:

What if Bill Walton had had a terrible shooting day in 1972?

What if (as some think) Coach Kirk had not pulled something shady vs. Villanova in 1985?

What if in 2008 Andre Allen had not gotten caught for smoking pot? Or what if we had hit one more free throw? or had 10 less seconds at the end of the game?

You can't change history. As some noted person once said "IT IS WHAT IT IS!"

What is the story on Kirk? He threw the game? First I've heard of that. It was the Detroit game.

(04-30-2020 06:01 PM)Hernando Hills Tiger Wrote:  What is the story on Kirk? He threw the game? First I've heard of that. It was the Detroit game.

As I recall, for some reason he told Vincent Askew not to shoot. People thought that was odd.

(05-01-2020 03:59 PM)covingtontiger Wrote:  

(04-30-2020 06:01 PM)Hernando Hills Tiger Wrote:  What is the story on Kirk? He threw the game? First I've heard of that. It was the Detroit game.

As I recall, for some reason he told Vincent Askew not to shoot. People thought that was odd.

I do recall that but Askew said it wasn't true. Besides Askew was the number 5 scorer on the team averaging 8.3 points. Keith was in foul trouble the whole game. It was a tough loss to take.

(04-30-2020 03:10 PM)covingtontiger Wrote:  You can play the "what if " game forever:

What if Bill Walton had had a terrible shooting day in 1972?

What if (as some think) Coach Kirk had not pulled something shady vs. Villanova in 1985?

What if in 2008 Andre Allen had not gotten caught for smoking pot? Or what if we had hit one more free throw? or had 10 less seconds at the end of the game?

You can't change history. As some noted person once said "IT IS WHAT IT IS!"

What if the refs didn't swallow the whistle in the second half after Walton picked up 3 fouls in the first.

3 fouls in the first and 1 in the second.



And more importantly for me personally what if they removed that inside guardrail two years earlier and i never T boned the end of it.