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Should UT Cut Sports?
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BearcatMan Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Should UT Cut Sports?
(05-04-2020 01:51 PM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 01:35 PM)UTerry Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 01:12 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 01:07 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 12:43 PM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  Sounds like a move to a separate G5 division.

Not a perfect scenario if excluded from the AAC...
I could see over half of that conference dropping to a separate G5 division... I always thought Toledo could compete with the Temple, Tulsa’s and East Carolina’s of the world...
Would surely beat dropping down to FCS level...

You do realize doing something like that essentially the same thing that you're advocating against, right? Is competing against MTSU, Texas State, and Tulane for a "national championship" really any different than North Dakota State, James Madison, Dayton, and Idaho for one? At the end of the day, the same thing is happening, and if there is no legislation to reduce the scholarship counts or mandatory expenses or sports, a move down doesn't matter in the slightest.

The reason why I'm advocating for an FCS move is because it COULD keep the AD solvent. It would drop the necessary football scholarships down to 63 from 85, the mandatory number of sports to 14 from 16, and would allow for us to trim a whole hell of a lot of fat, including bloated coaching budgets, ridiculous spending for amenities to continue fighting an arms race we'll never compete in, and many other things that could serious take 50% of our latent expenses off of the books. The people arguing against it are not actually giving any viable reason outside of "it would be different" or "we'd be at the bottom of the totem pole"...guess what, we're already there, and now it's starting to hurt the University, not just the athletics department.

1) the biggest problem always has been and always will be it's affiliation with the MAC conference...… PERIOD!!!!!!

2) if Toledo were to drop down to FCS, not only will the number of football athletes will drop (85 to 63) but also the QUALITY of athletes will drop...… No more 3 stars... granted a few may fall thru the cracks of the P5 and G5 but the quality of Toledo Football on the field will fall off (I know I'm talking overall history of the program not about the couple strange bad years in the last few.....)

3) no more being a national name or televised games...… how often do I'myou FCS games on TV (only occasionally when they are playing on a P5 schools conference network.......)

Might as well kill the Athletic Dept. and go to club sports. More savings there. Hey everybody can watch
the Big Ten. Why have a library with books, everything
can be downloaded. Get rid of excessive dorm rooms, class space, etc.

I love the false equivalency argument that downgrading to meet market dictation and financial needs is essentially the same as just burning everything down. Never once have I said that...and I never will.
05-04-2020 01:53 PM
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Boca Rocket Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Should UT Cut Sports?
(05-04-2020 01:53 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 01:51 PM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 01:35 PM)UTerry Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 01:12 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 01:07 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  Not a perfect scenario if excluded from the AAC...
I could see over half of that conference dropping to a separate G5 division... I always thought Toledo could compete with the Temple, Tulsa’s and East Carolina’s of the world...
Would surely beat dropping down to FCS level...

You do realize doing something like that essentially the same thing that you're advocating against, right? Is competing against MTSU, Texas State, and Tulane for a "national championship" really any different than North Dakota State, James Madison, Dayton, and Idaho for one? At the end of the day, the same thing is happening, and if there is no legislation to reduce the scholarship counts or mandatory expenses or sports, a move down doesn't matter in the slightest.

The reason why I'm advocating for an FCS move is because it COULD keep the AD solvent. It would drop the necessary football scholarships down to 63 from 85, the mandatory number of sports to 14 from 16, and would allow for us to trim a whole hell of a lot of fat, including bloated coaching budgets, ridiculous spending for amenities to continue fighting an arms race we'll never compete in, and many other things that could serious take 50% of our latent expenses off of the books. The people arguing against it are not actually giving any viable reason outside of "it would be different" or "we'd be at the bottom of the totem pole"...guess what, we're already there, and now it's starting to hurt the University, not just the athletics department.

1) the biggest problem always has been and always will be it's affiliation with the MAC conference...… PERIOD!!!!!!

2) if Toledo were to drop down to FCS, not only will the number of football athletes will drop (85 to 63) but also the QUALITY of athletes will drop...… No more 3 stars... granted a few may fall thru the cracks of the P5 and G5 but the quality of Toledo Football on the field will fall off (I know I'm talking overall history of the program not about the couple strange bad years in the last few.....)

3) no more being a national name or televised games...… how often do I'myou FCS games on TV (only occasionally when they are playing on a P5 schools conference network.......)

Might as well kill the Athletic Dept. and go to club sports. More savings there. Hey everybody can watch
the Big Ten. Why have a library with books, everything
can be downloaded. Get rid of excessive dorm rooms, class space, etc.

I love the false equivalency argument that downgrading to meet market dictation and financial needs is essentially the same as just burning everything down. Never once have I said that...and I never will.

The future of the institution is not in the physical plant nor anything of paper. It's about future market
needs. My youngest is taking finals this week.
No need to step on campus. No need for campus-
no need for sports teams, etc.
05-04-2020 02:13 PM
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FMRocket Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Should UT Cut Sports?
FCS level for Toledo guarantees a number of things...

1) Only time the Rockets will be on tv nationally would be having a slim chance of being in a playoff game in some 20,000 cap. stadium in late November...
2) No chance to ever host the Purdue’s, Iowa State’s of the world, not to mention Mizzou, BYU, or the U of Miami ...
3) Donor / sponsorship level will drop - Dramatically
4) Fan interest / media support / will drop - Dramatically
5) Forget any type of future bowl experience for Rocket fans...
I know they are a wash financially and are minor in prestige compared to what Big School State plays in...
But a destination spot during the holidays sounds more enticing than a FCS playoff/championship game in
Chattanooga Tenn.
Even if it’s Boca, Myrtle Beach, Mobile, Texas, or (gulp) Detroit...
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2020 03:05 PM by FMRocket.)
05-04-2020 02:14 PM
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Boca Rocket Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Should UT Cut Sports?
Besides the Zoo/Art Museum, the best thing the Toledo area has going for it.
05-04-2020 02:22 PM
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DetroitRocket Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Should UT Cut Sports?
Here's an article about Youngstown State's athletic budget, the only FCS program in Ohio, from 2015. https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/20...draft.html
05-04-2020 03:24 PM
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UTerry Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Should UT Cut Sports?
(05-04-2020 01:43 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 01:35 PM)UTerry Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 01:12 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 01:07 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 12:43 PM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  Sounds like a move to a separate G5 division.

Not a perfect scenario if excluded from the AAC...
I could see over half of that conference dropping to a separate G5 division... I always thought Toledo could compete with the Temple, Tulsa’s and East Carolina’s of the world...
Would surely beat dropping down to FCS level...

You do realize doing something like that essentially the same thing that you're advocating against, right? Is competing against MTSU, Texas State, and Tulane for a "national championship" really any different than North Dakota State, James Madison, Dayton, and Idaho for one? At the end of the day, the same thing is happening, and if there is no legislation to reduce the scholarship counts or mandatory expenses or sports, a move down doesn't matter in the slightest.

The reason why I'm advocating for an FCS move is because it COULD keep the AD solvent. It would drop the necessary football scholarships down to 63 from 85, the mandatory number of sports to 14 from 16, and would allow for us to trim a whole hell of a lot of fat, including bloated coaching budgets, ridiculous spending for amenities to continue fighting an arms race we'll never compete in, and many other things that could serious take 50% of our latent expenses off of the books. The people arguing against it are not actually giving any viable reason outside of "it would be different" or "we'd be at the bottom of the totem pole"...guess what, we're already there, and now it's starting to hurt the University, not just the athletics department.

1) the biggest problem always has been and always will be it's affiliation with the MAC conference...… PERIOD!!!!!!

2) if Toledo were to drop down to FCS, not only will the number of football athletes will drop (85 to 63) but also the QUALITY of athletes will drop...… No more 3 stars... granted a few may fall thru the cracks of the P5 and G5 but the quality of Toledo Football on the field will fall off (I know I'm talking overall history of the program not about the couple strange bad years in the last few.....)

3) no more being a national name or televised games...… how often do you FCS games on TV (only occasionally when they are playing on a P5 schools conference network.......)

This is the problem with a lot of Toledo fans...they really aren't a "national" name at all, and wouldn't register at all if not for the random MACtion games that people stumble upon...to think the Toledo is a national name in any way, shape, or form is incredibly naive/unaware. The amount of people even down in Cincinnati who weren't sure where Toledo even was when I was down there was much higher than I thought, and that's in our home state.

it's amazing when people think they know all about you or think they know more than you, make terrible uninformed comments...….. 05-nono
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2020 05:16 PM by UTerry.)
05-04-2020 05:14 PM
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eastisbest Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Should UT Cut Sports?
The Cincinnati airport is in Kentucky. Why would any sane person expect a Cincituckian to know whether Toledo was in Ohio, Michigan or New Jersey?
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2020 06:19 PM by eastisbest.)
05-04-2020 06:19 PM
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northcoastRocket Online
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Post: #48
RE: Should UT Cut Sports?
So, I don't really want to get involved in this discussion, but there are a lot of things being thrown around with no data, and I like data. The idea that moving down to FCS would automatically save gobs of money and put UT on the road to a solvent athletic budget is not born out by the data.

- According to the Knight Commission Database for 2018, all FCS schools subsidize athletics. (Even MVSU, which only has a $4M total budget).
- The average FCS subsidy is $12M per year, but if you don't include the SWAC ('cause they have minuscule overall athletic budgets) the average is over $13M. (so, if you want to be average...)
- UT has a $20M subsidy in 2018. 10 FCS schools had equal or greater subsidies.
- James Madison (which was mentioned up-thread) led the FCS in overall athletic budget with a whopping $41M subsidy - double that of UT. (I do not know what they are spending their money on.)
- The average FCS school subsidizes 68% of the athletic budget. That's the same as the MAC.
- NDSU is an exception, with only a 31% subsidy, but that's not because of a lower budget. They have a MAC-like budget at $28M, but have much bigger revenues in ticket sales and donor contributions than most of the MAC schools.
- Illinois State is a reasonable comparison to UT. They have a $28M budget ($5M less than UT) and a $19M subsidy (only $1M less than UT)

So, it seems to me there is no guarantee that lost revenue from dropping to FCS would not be equal or greater than any savings. No guarantee UT would be competing for national championships every year if they don't keep spending the money at a similar level of the top FCS schools, which is around MAC level.
05-04-2020 06:22 PM
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PaulJ Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Should UT Cut Sports?
(05-04-2020 01:51 PM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 01:35 PM)UTerry Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 01:12 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 01:07 PM)FMRocket Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 12:43 PM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  Sounds like a move to a separate G5 division.

Not a perfect scenario if excluded from the AAC...
I could see over half of that conference dropping to a separate G5 division... I always thought Toledo could compete with the Temple, Tulsa’s and East Carolina’s of the world...
Would surely beat dropping down to FCS level...

You do realize doing something like that essentially the same thing that you're advocating against, right? Is competing against MTSU, Texas State, and Tulane for a "national championship" really any different than North Dakota State, James Madison, Dayton, and Idaho for one? At the end of the day, the same thing is happening, and if there is no legislation to reduce the scholarship counts or mandatory expenses or sports, a move down doesn't matter in the slightest.

The reason why I'm advocating for an FCS move is because it COULD keep the AD solvent. It would drop the necessary football scholarships down to 63 from 85, the mandatory number of sports to 14 from 16, and would allow for us to trim a whole hell of a lot of fat, including bloated coaching budgets, ridiculous spending for amenities to continue fighting an arms race we'll never compete in, and many other things that could serious take 50% of our latent expenses off of the books. The people arguing against it are not actually giving any viable reason outside of "it would be different" or "we'd be at the bottom of the totem pole"...guess what, we're already there, and now it's starting to hurt the University, not just the athletics department.

1) the biggest problem always has been and always will be it's affiliation with the MAC conference...… PERIOD!!!!!!

2) if Toledo were to drop down to FCS, not only will the number of football athletes will drop (85 to 63) but also the QUALITY of athletes will drop...… No more 3 stars... granted a few may fall thru the cracks of the P5 and G5 but the quality of Toledo Football on the field will fall off (I know I'm talking overall history of the program not about the couple strange bad years in the last few.....)

3) no more being a national name or televised games...… how often do I'myou FCS games on TV (only occasionally when they are playing on a P5 schools conference network.......)

Might as well kill the Athletic Dept. and go to club sports. More savings there. Hey everybody can watch
the Big Ten. Why have a library with books, everything
can be downloaded. Get rid of excessive dorm rooms, class space, etc.

The difference is that students and their parents will pay for a library, dorm rooms, classes, labs, lectures with faculty.etc...... they don't care for and certainly are not interested in paying for varsity sports. I talk to freshman and their parents all the time, including those looking at coming in the fall, and many won't come if their education is entirely online, they want the on campus experience and willing to pay for it. UT football and Athletics are not an appeal to 18,000 students, yet we are asking them to pay for it, direct from UT operating budget and student fees. UT is an institution of higher learning, it is not a minor league sports franchise. And plenty of UT students already watch the big ten and other CFB, more so than the Rockets. They don't care who the Rockets play, or what conference they are in, some will come and watch and support regardless of how much coaches are paid or how many scholarship players there are. You scale down Athletics and the vast majority of fee paying students and their parents will never notice nor care.
05-04-2020 06:34 PM
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PaulJ Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Should UT Cut Sports?
(05-04-2020 06:22 PM)northcoastRocket Wrote:  So, I don't really want to get involved in this discussion, but there are a lot of things being thrown around with no data, and I like data. The idea that moving down to FCS would automatically save gobs of money and put UT on the road to a solvent athletic budget is not born out by the data.

- According to the Knight Commission Database for 2018, all FCS schools subsidize athletics. (Even MVSU, which only has a $4M total budget).
- The average FCS subsidy is $12M per year, but if you don't include the SWAC ('cause they have minuscule overall athletic budgets) the average is over $13M. (so, if you want to be average...)
- UT has a $20M subsidy in 2018. 10 FCS schools had equal or greater subsidies.
- James Madison (which was mentioned up-thread) led the FCS in overall athletic budget with a whopping $41M subsidy - double that of UT. (I do not know what they are spending their money on.)
- The average FCS school subsidizes 68% of the athletic budget. That's the same as the MAC.
- NDSU is an exception, with only a 31% subsidy, but that's not because of a lower budget. They have a MAC-like budget at $28M, but have much bigger revenues in ticket sales and donor contributions than most of the MAC schools.
- Illinois State is a reasonable comparison to UT. They have a $28M budget ($5M less than UT) and a $19M subsidy (only $1M less than UT)

So, it seems to me there is no guarantee that lost revenue from dropping to FCS would not be equal or greater than any savings. No guarantee UT would be competing for national championships every year if they don't keep spending the money at a similar level of the top FCS schools, which is around MAC level.

Worth noting that every school you mention, along with vast majority of CFB programs, are going to experience the same budget crisis as UT, the scale and impacts may differ, but UT is not unique, these other schools will also be facing large cuts to their Athletic programs. Any program with those levels of subsidy from student fees or operating budget across the MAC and also FCS will suffer the same fate. You refer to spending money at the similar level of top FCS or the MAC level-budgets that are also going to experience 10-20% cuts, that level of budgets will be gone.
05-04-2020 06:41 PM
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DetroitRocket Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Should UT Cut Sports?
(05-04-2020 06:19 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  The Cincinnati airport is in Kentucky. Why would any sane person expect a Cincituckian to know whether Toledo was in Ohio, Michigan or New Jersey?

They don't study Ohio history and geography in grade school in Cincinnati?
05-04-2020 07:20 PM
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BearcatMan Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Should UT Cut Sports?
(05-04-2020 06:22 PM)northcoastRocket Wrote:  So, I don't really want to get involved in this discussion, but there are a lot of things being thrown around with no data, and I like data. The idea that moving down to FCS would automatically save gobs of money and put UT on the road to a solvent athletic budget is not born out by the data.

- According to the Knight Commission Database for 2018, all FCS schools subsidize athletics. (Even MVSU, which only has a $4M total budget).
- The average FCS subsidy is $12M per year, but if you don't include the SWAC ('cause they have minuscule overall athletic budgets) the average is over $13M. (so, if you want to be average...)
- UT has a $20M subsidy in 2018. 10 FCS schools had equal or greater subsidies.
- James Madison (which was mentioned up-thread) led the FCS in overall athletic budget with a whopping $41M subsidy - double that of UT. (I do not know what they are spending their money on.)
- The average FCS school subsidizes 68% of the athletic budget. That's the same as the MAC.
- NDSU is an exception, with only a 31% subsidy, but that's not because of a lower budget. They have a MAC-like budget at $28M, but have much bigger revenues in ticket sales and donor contributions than most of the MAC schools.
- Illinois State is a reasonable comparison to UT. They have a $28M budget ($5M less than UT) and a $19M subsidy (only $1M less than UT)

So, it seems to me there is no guarantee that lost revenue from dropping to FCS would not be equal or greater than any savings. No guarantee UT would be competing for national championships every year if they don't keep spending the money at a similar level of the top FCS schools, which is around MAC level.

The James Madison administration was quite literally sued by the state of Virginia this year and a law was written and passed unanimously in their house because of their overspending. Event the JMU admin couldn't clearly articulate where all of their money was going...that's a crazy situation and one hell of a deep dive if you'd ever want to check it out.

Also, I'm only worried about the bottom line...so a scenario like Illinois State would save us $5M. Looking at NDSU, that kind of shows that consistent success at the FCS level may actually increase some of the numbers that others think are sure to decline. If we're competing for National Titles, I guarantee people would come out and so would the money.
05-04-2020 08:52 PM
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Boca Rocket Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Should UT Cut Sports?
(05-04-2020 08:52 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(05-04-2020 06:22 PM)northcoastRocket Wrote:  So, I don't really want to get involved in this discussion, but there are a lot of things being thrown around with no data, and I like data. The idea that moving down to FCS would automatically save gobs of money and put UT on the road to a solvent athletic budget is not born out by the data.

- According to the Knight Commission Database for 2018, all FCS schools subsidize athletics. (Even MVSU, which only has a $4M total budget).
- The average FCS subsidy is $12M per year, but if you don't include the SWAC ('cause they have minuscule overall athletic budgets) the average is over $13M. (so, if you want to be average...)
- UT has a $20M subsidy in 2018. 10 FCS schools had equal or greater subsidies.
- James Madison (which was mentioned up-thread) led the FCS in overall athletic budget with a whopping $41M subsidy - double that of UT. (I do not know what they are spending their money on.)
- The average FCS school subsidizes 68% of the athletic budget. That's the same as the MAC.
- NDSU is an exception, with only a 31% subsidy, but that's not because of a lower budget. They have a MAC-like budget at $28M, but have much bigger revenues in ticket sales and donor contributions than most of the MAC schools.
- Illinois State is a reasonable comparison to UT. They have a $28M budget ($5M less than UT) and a $19M subsidy (only $1M less than UT)

So, it seems to me there is no guarantee that lost revenue from dropping to FCS would not be equal or greater than any savings. No guarantee UT would be competing for national championships every year if they don't keep spending the money at a similar level of the top FCS schools, which is around MAC level.

The James Madison administration was quite literally sued by the state of Virginia this year and a law was written and passed unanimously in their house because of their overspending. Event the JMU admin couldn't clearly articulate where all of their money was going...that's a crazy situation and one hell of a deep dive if you'd ever want to check it out.

Also, I'm only worried about the bottom line...so a scenario like Illinois State would save us $5M. Looking at NDSU, that kind of shows that consistent success at the FCS level may actually increase some of the numbers that others think are sure to decline. If we're competing for National Titles, I guarantee people would come out and so would the money.

Prior to 2008 I wanted to buy a small horse farm or a lake cottage to be able to go to Rocket games. Still thinking about since I'm getting close to retirement.
Moving down to FCS would stop that idea. It's crap.
05-04-2020 09:00 PM
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inductchuck16 Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Should UT Cut Sports?
The cutting process begins for UT....


05-05-2020 02:56 PM
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PaulJ Offline
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RE: Should UT Cut Sports?
(05-05-2020 02:56 PM)inductchuck16 Wrote:  The cutting process begins for UT....



And that is only for May-June, to end of FY20, does not include CWA unionized staff who are being informed today and tomorrow of their layoffs for 4 weeks between now and June 30th.

Planning for FY21 budget cuts continues, those announcements will come in next few weeks including operating budget and another rounds of paycuts, furloughs and layoffs effective July 1st.
05-06-2020 10:39 AM
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RocketJeff Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Should UT Cut Sports?
As has been stated, we can't cut any sports and remain FBS in football. One thing nice about dropping down in football would be not having weekday games, but I'm less enthusiastic about rocket football if it happens. Frankly, I wouldn't be any more enthused about playing YSU or EKU than Mt Union or Dayton. If we're dropping down let's drop all the way and sink the entire athletic budget into basketball.
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2020 12:05 PM by RocketJeff.)
05-10-2020 12:04 PM
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