I think her plan for intensive testing and tracing is extremely unrealistic in the next several months, so the real takeaway is how extremely concerned admins at even Ivy campuses must be about an online Fall to even suggest this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/26/opini...Gw7E8MewQE

Of course the Brown University president wants students on-campus, because students aren't going to pay this kind of money for taking courses online.

https://www.brown.edu/news/2020-02-10/tuition

Quote:Based on recommendations from a committee of faculty, senior administrators, students and staff members, the Corporation of Brown University on Saturday, Feb. 8, approved undergraduate, graduate and medical school tuition and fees for the 2020-21 academic year.

Tuition for Brown’s undergraduate education and for most doctoral and on-campus master’s degree programs will be $59,254, a 3.75% increase compared to 2019-20. Medical school tuition will increase by 3% to $64,974.

Quote:Tuition: $59,254
Standard room rate: $9,774
Standard board: $6,134
Health fee: $978
Student activities fee: $298
Student recreation fee: $66

TOTAL UNDERGRADUATE: $76,504

Lets boycott these schools with this stupid $76,000 per semester fees and all that. You wonder why these private universities are failing because how expensive they are.

(04-26-2020 03:10 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Of course the Brown University president wants students on-campus, because students aren't going to pay this kind of money for taking courses online.

https://www.brown.edu/news/2020-02-10/tuition

Quote:Based on recommendations from a committee of faculty, senior administrators, students and staff members, the Corporation of Brown University on Saturday, Feb. 8, approved undergraduate, graduate and medical school tuition and fees for the 2020-21 academic year.

Tuition for Brown’s undergraduate education and for most doctoral and on-campus master’s degree programs will be $59,254, a 3.75% increase compared to 2019-20. Medical school tuition will increase by 3% to $64,974.

Quote:Tuition: $59,254
Standard room rate: $9,774
Standard board: $6,134
Health fee: $978
Student activities fee: $298
Student recreation fee: $66

TOTAL UNDERGRADUATE: $76,504

Yep. Only $59k of their $76k in per-student revenue is tuition. And that's for students who don't get scholarships.

I bet once scholarships are factored in, 50% of Brown's academic revenue (i.e. not counting research grants and endowment income) is from items that won't be charged if students are off-campus.

(04-26-2020 03:22 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Lets boycott these schools with this stupid $76,000 per semester fees and all that. You wonder why these private universities are failing because how expensive they are.

Welp, there goes Brown’s PHD program in conference realignment

(04-26-2020 03:22 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Lets boycott these schools with this stupid $76,000 per semester fees and all that. You wonder why these private universities are failing because how expensive they are.

It's called capitalism. Brown is a private school and if people are willing to pay those rates they will. It seems there is an extremely high demand to get an education at Brown with over 10,000 students and an acceptance rate of only 8%. If Brown wants to charge $100,000 per semester, more power to them.

(04-26-2020 04:01 PM)AZcats Wrote:  

(04-26-2020 03:22 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Lets boycott these schools with this stupid $76,000 per semester fees and all that. You wonder why these private universities are failing because how expensive they are.

It's called capitalism. Brown is a private school and if people are willing to pay those rates they will. It seems there is an extremely high demand to get an education at Brown with over 10,000 students and an acceptance rate of only 8%. If Brown wants to charge $100,000 per semester, more power to them.

David wants government run everything.

(04-26-2020 03:22 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Lets boycott these schools with this stupid $76,000 per semester fees and all that. You wonder why these private universities are failing because how expensive they are.

How exactly is Brown failing?

(04-26-2020 05:26 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(04-26-2020 03:22 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Lets boycott these schools with this stupid $76,000 per semester fees and all that. You wonder why these private universities are failing because how expensive they are.

How exactly is Brown failing?

Yeah, the Ivy League schools and other top 50 or so private schools aren’t having issues. They have way more demand than spots available, so they can charge rack rate tuition of $50,000-plus per year and there will be plenty of takers. Granted, those schools generally have very good need-based financial aid, so if you’re from a household making $150,000 or less, the elite schools could cost less than your in-state flagship university. Whether it’s fair or not, Goldman Sachs, McKinsey and other top employers will also hire the random sociology major from Brown over the hard core engineering or accounting major from virtually all of the top state schools (my alma mater included), so the “wishy washy” liberal arts majors from the Ivies and Ivy-level schools actually do typically get a great employment ROI because the brands of their schools are so strong in the marketplace. Those top privates are NOT the issue.

Now, the lower tier private universities are certainly the ones at risk. It’s generally tough to justify their tuition prices when compared to in-state flagships or flagship equivalents and they don’t have great financial aid compared to the elite schools. Those lower tier privates are the ones that were already in danger prior to the pandemic and this now push many of them over the ledge.

It will also be interesting to see how community college enrollment will look this fall. Without an on-campus experience, why not just take gen ed courses for a fraction of the price at the local community college? I don’t think that’s going to impact schools like Brown since those students are going to want to keep their place at those elite schools and they don’t take transfer credits as easily. For schools that do take transfer credits easily, though, it’s a different ballgame. To be very clear, I’m a huge believer in the value of an on-campus experience for college, but if that’s simply impossible due to the pandemic for an entire semester or two, then that makes starting off at community college a lot more appealing.

(04-26-2020 03:10 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Of course the Brown University president wants students on-campus, because students aren't going to pay this kind of money for taking courses online.

Spot on.

Ivy or not, you can’t demand that rate for correspondence classes. And I’m sure the faculty there are drilling administration about issues they face in this new environment.

Even if Brown has no problem turning away people, don’t underestimate students and parents taking it right back at the school for quality and value.

(04-27-2020 10:15 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(04-26-2020 03:10 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Of course the Brown University president wants students on-campus, because students aren't going to pay this kind of money for taking courses online.

Spot on.

Ivy or not, you can’t demand that rate for correspondence classes. And I’m sure the faculty there are drilling administration about issues they face in this new environment.

Even if Brown has no problem turning away people, don’t underestimate students and parents taking it right back at the school for quality and value.

Brown has generous needs-based scholarships. Basically, if your parents make $60k or less a year, it's just about a full ride. Less than $100k and you pay maybe 20% of the full bill, etc.

Very few students are actually paying $70k a year. Even parents making $300k and up get like 25% off that.

(04-26-2020 05:26 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(04-26-2020 03:22 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Lets boycott these schools with this stupid $76,000 per semester fees and all that. You wonder why these private universities are failing because how expensive they are.

How exactly is Brown failing?

Brown is failing because they’re not in the Big East or the AAC. Stupid guys are in the Ivy. They COULD move to FBS, they just need a big donor to foot the bill. I read an article 23 years ago that stated they’re planning to join a new conference with Black, Red, Yellow, White, Green, and Purple.

(04-27-2020 10:15 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(04-26-2020 03:10 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Of course the Brown University president wants students on-campus, because students aren't going to pay this kind of money for taking courses online.

Spot on.

Ivy or not, you can’t demand that rate for correspondence classes. And I’m sure the faculty there are drilling administration about issues they face in this new environment.

Even if Brown has no problem turning away people, don’t underestimate students and parents taking it right back at the school for quality and value.

It will be an interesting tension.

While it would be tough to swallow paying close to $30,000 for a semester of online classes at an Ivy League school, the flip side is that there's a significant "flight to quality" from employers whenever there's an economic downturn.

I've seen it several times over my career already: whenever there's an economic downturn, employers will cut their recruiting at lower ranked schools while retaining their connections to the top ranked schools. I know enough about how they make the sausage in HR departments that going for the cheapest option available can be a "penny wise, pound foolish" decision when it comes to employment options when these kids actually graduate in 3 or 4 years. If anything, I'd actually be *more* risk averse if I had a kid going to college next year - what I thought might have been a good deal in terms of ROI in pre-pandemic times (e.g. a less expensive lower ranked school that had good employment outcomes in the past few years) may no longer have the same ROI and you need to pay more for quality to get the same types of employment outcomes in post-pandemic times. (Thankfully, I'm still several years away from that.)

It's going to be a sliding scale and largely going to accelerate trends that were already happening. Slots at Ivy League and similarly ranked schools are so valuable that I doubt that many people will give them up. Upper tier state schools may see more losses to community colleges, but the more competitive programs will retain a larger share. The lower tier state schools and private universities, though, were the ones already getting pummeled even in pre-pandemic times and this is going to accelerate if students can't go back on-campus in the fall.

(04-27-2020 10:27 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(04-27-2020 10:15 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(04-26-2020 03:10 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Of course the Brown University president wants students on-campus, because students aren't going to pay this kind of money for taking courses online.

Spot on.

Ivy or not, you can’t demand that rate for correspondence classes. And I’m sure the faculty there are drilling administration about issues they face in this new environment.

Even if Brown has no problem turning away people, don’t underestimate students and parents taking it right back at the school for quality and value.

Brown has generous needs-based scholarships. Basically, if your parents make $60k or less a year, it's just about a full ride. Less than $100k and you pay maybe 20% of the full bill, etc.

Very few students are actually paying $70k a year. Even parents making $300k and up get like 25% off that.

Yes, I don't think many people realize this to be the case. The fact is that the majority of students don't pay full tuition at Ivy League schools and it's going to be cheaper than going to an in-state public school for many of them. The ones that need to pay full tuition at Ivy League schools are generally very high income (where there's much more of a reasonable expectation that they can pay on their own).

The Ivy League schools and their peers are NOT the problem here when it comes to costs. Even those who need to pay full tuition can funnel their kids to places like investment banks and management consulting firms that will make that tuition seem trivial compared to their earnings over a lifetime. There's a big difference between the Ivy/Ivy-level private schools and the regional small private schools that are charging huge tuition prices yet don't provide any advantage compared to simply going to a community college (which provide classes at a MUCH cheaper price).

(04-27-2020 11:26 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-27-2020 10:27 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(04-27-2020 10:15 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(04-26-2020 03:10 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Of course the Brown University president wants students on-campus, because students aren't going to pay this kind of money for taking courses online.

Spot on.

Ivy or not, you can’t demand that rate for correspondence classes. And I’m sure the faculty there are drilling administration about issues they face in this new environment.

Even if Brown has no problem turning away people, don’t underestimate students and parents taking it right back at the school for quality and value.

Brown has generous needs-based scholarships. Basically, if your parents make $60k or less a year, it's just about a full ride. Less than $100k and you pay maybe 20% of the full bill, etc.

Very few students are actually paying $70k a year. Even parents making $300k and up get like 25% off that.

Yes, I don't think many people realize this to be the case. The fact is that the majority of students don't pay full tuition at Ivy League schools and it's going to be cheaper than going to an in-state public school for many of them. The ones that need to pay full tuition at Ivy League schools are generally very high income (where there's much more of a reasonable expectation that they can pay on their own).

The Ivy League schools and their peers are NOT the problem here when it comes to costs. Even those who need to pay full tuition can funnel their kids to places like investment banks and management consulting firms that will make that tuition seem trivial compared to their earnings over a lifetime. There's a big difference between the Ivy/Ivy-level private schools and the regional small private schools that are charging huge tuition prices yet don't provide any advantage compared to simply going to a community college (which provide classes at a MUCH cheaper price).

++++++

If you're living in say Will County IL, commuting to Joliet Junior College will give you roughly the same ROI as living at Olivet Nazarene, and living at Olivet Nazarene will cost you $36k while commuting to Joliet Junior College will cost you $3,600. That's 10x the cost just to say "I got a Christian education". No matter how much they flood advertisements on Chicagoland tv, schools like Olivet Nazarene who don't provide real value and mainly thrive off scamming devout church-goers are most exposed to this pandemic, other than the very small liberal arts privates already hanging by a thread.

(04-26-2020 03:25 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(04-26-2020 03:10 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Of course the Brown University president wants students on-campus, because students aren't going to pay this kind of money for taking courses online.

https://www.brown.edu/news/2020-02-10/tuition

Quote:Based on recommendations from a committee of faculty, senior administrators, students and staff members, the Corporation of Brown University on Saturday, Feb. 8, approved undergraduate, graduate and medical school tuition and fees for the 2020-21 academic year.

Tuition for Brown’s undergraduate education and for most doctoral and on-campus master’s degree programs will be $59,254, a 3.75% increase compared to 2019-20. Medical school tuition will increase by 3% to $64,974.

Quote:Tuition: $59,254
Standard room rate: $9,774
Standard board: $6,134
Health fee: $978
Student activities fee: $298
Student recreation fee: $66

TOTAL UNDERGRADUATE: $76,504

Yep. Only $59k of their $76k in per-student revenue is tuition. And that's for students who don't get scholarships.

I bet once scholarships are factored in, 50% of Brown's academic revenue (i.e. not counting research grants and endowment income) is from items that won't be charged if students are off-campus.

Agreed. There's a quote in this article that says the same thing, bluntly:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/edu...story.html

Quote:“If you don’t have people in your dorms, eating your food, you’re losing money,” said Robert Ruiz, a former admissions director and now vice president for strategic enrollment at the consulting firm LiaisonEDU.

Another point from the same article:

Quote:About a quarter of high school seniors who already picked colleges are reconsidering where to enroll, a survey by the higher education research firm SimpsonScarborough has found; 20 percent say it is likely or highly likely that they won’t go at all.

At this point I expect it to be face to face, but there will be a lot fewer speakers and other events. Its going to be different. I can't imagine football. So we're probably going with the first choice bigger name college experience school as opposed to a couple of the less expensive options that we might have chosen if we knew it would be online.

(04-27-2020 02:50 PM)bullet Wrote:  At this point I expect it to be face to face, but there will be a lot fewer speakers and other events. Its going to be different. I can't imagine football. So we're probably going with the first choice bigger name college experience school as opposed to a couple of the less expensive options that we might have chosen if we knew it would be online.

Yeah, it will be interesting.

The biggest challenge is simply how to deal with housing. There are few places that are less well-suited to social distancing than a college dorm.

So, even if you could conceivably have larger spaced out lecture halls, incorporation of more online learning, no mass gatherings like football or basketball games, etc., does any of that work if students still sleep in dorms where two or more people are packed into rooms that are smaller than the home office that I use now and there are communal bathrooms? Do the economics of student housing allow for fewer students to live in dorms in order to have some sort of semblance social distancing? (My guess is "no" on that front.) Let's face it - all it takes is one case in a dorm and you have a possible (probable?) super-spreader situation.

Putting aside the specific impact on colleges, this has been a really frustrating situation for a fairly pragmatic person like myself. I'm all about compromise in an effort to move forward as a general matter, but COVID-19 has presented a problem where there really isn't a "halfway" compromise solution. It's not as if though opening up, say, 50% of businesses means that there's now only 50% of the risk compared to fully opening up, but rather that it could still be 90%-plus of the risk. Nothing about this pandemic is linear - each single case can have an exponential impact on a community. That's what makes it so hard to find anything that's considered to be a compromise position here. It feels like it's either all or nothing in so many situations.

More online students in Univ of Phoenix, Arizona St, GCU, Devry...etc

Oregon committed to opening in the fall. Why?

"The UO is tuition-dependent and Schill noted that national experts have estimated a 15 percent reduction in enrollment. The Oregon Higher Education Coordinating Commission also has instructed the UO to plan for the possibility of an initial 17 percent reduction in state appropriations next year."

https://around.uoregon.edu/content/uo-ma...nouncement