(05-19-2020 08:05 PM)brock20 Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 06:50 PM)MTBuc Wrote:  I’ll reserve judgment on Shay until he actually coaches a game. As we now face losing a minimum of 3 major pieces of the the team I once again make the argument that Forbes is leaving behind a much worse situation for Shay than he inherited from Bartow.

Agree. I'm also fine with a rebuilding year or even 2 if it means we are building something more than a place players grabs a cup of coffee at.

I think it has also been ridiculous how little it has been talked about what Bartow left behind for Forbes. That first year ETSU went about 8 deep until right at the end then it went to 9 when AJ returned:

Cromer
Guyn
Bello

Peter
Petey
Ike
Desonta
Lester
AJ

Forbes only brought in 3 guys who contributed that year and 2 of them were 1 year rentals. Its also worth remembering that Devin Harris left the program and he ended up being an all conference player at Jacksonville (?). Things weren't in as bad a shape as most in the media that love Forbes have been making it out to be. Look, Bartow's tenure had long run its course but some acknowledgement of what he did should be noted when talking about how Forbes was able to have success immediately.

Umm.......Forbes got Guyn, right? And I hate to keep going over this again and again, but no, the cupboard was *not* bare. That wasn't the problem with bartow, and we all know it. He just couldn't maximize or improve the talent he had. Yes, he was a pretty good recruiter. Except for the last 2-3 years, when he couldn't get any bigs. He just did. not. figure. the rotations out. Nor was he much good at putting his teams in position to win. And I'll say it again: "Gardner-Webb".

And we really don't need to debate this, but I was never very high on Ike like some of you were. He was a great guy, but until late in his career, his hands were *terrible*. Many were the comments on this board about that very trait. He was a nice "role player".
And Harris was *second* team All-Conference at Jacksonville. Both he and Ike were 'decent' players, but not on the level of those Forbes brought in when he got rolling.

Or here's another way to think about it. Forbes went 24-12 (14-4) (after a slow start) with (mostly) bartow's players who were 16-14 (8-10) his last year.

(05-20-2020 12:10 AM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 08:05 PM)brock20 Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 06:50 PM)MTBuc Wrote:  I’ll reserve judgment on Shay until he actually coaches a game. As we now face losing a minimum of 3 major pieces of the the team I once again make the argument that Forbes is leaving behind a much worse situation for Shay than he inherited from Bartow.

Agree. I'm also fine with a rebuilding year or even 2 if it means we are building something more than a place players grabs a cup of coffee at.

I think it has also been ridiculous how little it has been talked about what Bartow left behind for Forbes. That first year ETSU went about 8 deep until right at the end then it went to 9 when AJ returned:

Cromer
Guyn
Bello

Peter
Petey
Ike
Desonta
Lester
AJ

Forbes only brought in 3 guys who contributed that year and 2 of them were 1 year rentals. Its also worth remembering that Devin Harris left the program and he ended up being an all conference player at Jacksonville (?). Things weren't in as bad a shape as most in the media that love Forbes have been making it out to be. Look, Bartow's tenure had long run its course but some acknowledgement of what he did should be noted when talking about how Forbes was able to have success immediately.

Umm.......Forbes got Guyn, right? And I hate to keep going over this again and again, but no, the cupboard was *not* bare. That wasn't the problem with bartow, and we all know it. He just couldn't maximize or improve the talent he had. Yes, he was a pretty good recruiter. Except for the last 2-3 years, when he couldn't get any bigs. He just did. not. figure. the rotations out. Nor was he much good at putting his teams in position to win. And I'll say it again: "Gardner-Webb".

And we really don't need to debate this, but I was never very high on Ike like some of you were. He was a great guy, but until late in his career, his hands were *terrible*. Many were the comments on this board about that very trait. He was a nice "role player".
And Harris was *second* team All-Conference at Jacksonville. Both he and Ike were 'decent' players, but not on the level of those Forbes brought in when he got rolling.

Or here's another way to think about it. Forbes went 24-12 (14-4) (after a slow start) with (mostly) bartow's players who were 16-14 (8-10) his last year.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make doc (big surprise)
No the cupboard was not bare, but that was an average team Bartow left, Forbes came in and added the right ingredients and most importantly coached it and made it winner (Guyn,Cromer and Bello 1,2,3 leading scorers)

Shay faces the opposite problem. He is left with a good team but is losing the best two remaining players from last year. The key is can Shay find the players to replace them and produce a winner. Shay does face bigger challenges than Forbes did so not sure he can be judged a failure if he doesn't bring impact players like Forbes was able to, that doesn't mean he can't recruit or coach.

Bartow was a decent recruiter but a bad coach.
Forbes was a great recruiter and had a well-coached team.
some are saying Shay was responsible for a lot of that X's and O's.
Jury is still out on the recruiting but he shouldn't be judged by losing
players during a coaching change.

That

I'm sorry, I must have dozed off there for a moment. Is the season already over and the Bucs didn't win a single game? A[/b] catastrophe. I will try and pay more attention in future.

(05-20-2020 07:21 AM)BigIslandBuc Wrote:  I'm sorry, I must have dozed off there for a moment. Is the season already over and the Bucs didn't win a single game? A[/b] catastrophe. I will try and pay more attention in future.

Freedom Hall also burned down.

(05-20-2020 07:04 AM)RodShaw2 Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 12:10 AM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 08:05 PM)brock20 Wrote:  

(05-19-2020 06:50 PM)MTBuc Wrote:  I’ll reserve judgment on Shay until he actually coaches a game. As we now face losing a minimum of 3 major pieces of the the team I once again make the argument that Forbes is leaving behind a much worse situation for Shay than he inherited from Bartow.

Agree. I'm also fine with a rebuilding year or even 2 if it means we are building something more than a place players grabs a cup of coffee at.

I think it has also been ridiculous how little it has been talked about what Bartow left behind for Forbes. That first year ETSU went about 8 deep until right at the end then it went to 9 when AJ returned:

Cromer
Guyn
Bello

Peter
Petey
Ike
Desonta
Lester
AJ

Forbes only brought in 3 guys who contributed that year and 2 of them were 1 year rentals. Its also worth remembering that Devin Harris left the program and he ended up being an all conference player at Jacksonville (?). Things weren't in as bad a shape as most in the media that love Forbes have been making it out to be. Look, Bartow's tenure had long run its course but some acknowledgement of what he did should be noted when talking about how Forbes was able to have success immediately.

Umm.......Forbes got Guyn, right? And I hate to keep going over this again and again, but no, the cupboard was *not* bare. That wasn't the problem with bartow, and we all know it. He just couldn't maximize or improve the talent he had. Yes, he was a pretty good recruiter. Except for the last 2-3 years, when he couldn't get any bigs. He just did. not. figure. the rotations out. Nor was he much good at putting his teams in position to win. And I'll say it again: "Gardner-Webb".

And we really don't need to debate this, but I was never very high on Ike like some of you were. He was a great guy, but until late in his career, his hands were *terrible*. Many were the comments on this board about that very trait. He was a nice "role player".
And Harris was *second* team All-Conference at Jacksonville. Both he and Ike were 'decent' players, but not on the level of those Forbes brought in when he got rolling.

Or here's another way to think about it. Forbes went 24-12 (14-4) (after a slow start) with (mostly) bartow's players who were 16-14 (8-10) his last year.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make doc (big surprise)
No the cupboard was not bare, but that was an average team Bartow left, Forbes came in and added the right ingredients and most importantly coached it and made it winner (Guyn,Cromer and Bello 1,2,3 leading scorers)

Shay faces the opposite problem. He is left with a good team but is losing the best two remaining players from last year. The key is can Shay find the players to replace them and produce a winner. Shay does face bigger challenges than Forbes did so not sure he can be judged a failure if he doesn't bring impact players like Forbes was able to, that doesn't mean he can't recruit or coach.

Bartow was a decent recruiter but a bad coach.
Forbes was a great recruiter and had a well-coached team.
some are saying Shay was responsible for a lot of that X's and O's.
Jury is still out on the recruiting but he shouldn't be judged by losing
players during a coaching change.

That

Couldn't agree ore, Rod. It was mentioned that Forbes brought in Cromer, Guyn, & Bello, but won with "mostly Bartow's players." Holy smokes, were you paying attention? Those 3 were the core of the 2015-16 team's success. Without them, and another year of Bartow and Bartow-typical type recruits at the guard position, that team may have slipped to well below average and the bottom of the SoCon. Look, I don't think Bartow was all bad, and he won some games and some titles. However, his last 5 years here we were 86-77, and four of those were in the ASun. Mediocre at best. I get that Devin Harris became an all league player at Jacksonville, but he was nowhere near an all league player in the SoCon or at ETSU.

I am hoping things will work out well and we have a great season coming up. What bothers me is that we had the 26th ranked team in the nation this year and now we are talking about a couple years rebuilding project? Forbes came in and did what was necessary to win every year and that is what we should expect going forward. If that is not happening then we are doing something wrong.

(05-20-2020 08:30 AM)GoBucsGo Wrote:  Couldn't agree ore, Rod. It was mentioned that Forbes brought in Cromer, Guyn, & Bello, but won with "mostly Bartow's players." Holy smokes, were you paying attention? Those 3 were the core of the 2015-16 team's success. Without them, and another year of Bartow and Bartow-typical type recruits at the guard position, that team may have slipped to well below average and the bottom of the SoCon. Look, I don't think Bartow was all bad, and he won some games and some titles. However, his last 5 years here we were 86-77, and four of those were in the ASun. Mediocre at best. I get that Devin Harris became an all league player at Jacksonville, but he was nowhere near an all league player in the SoCon or at ETSU.

Did you actually read the posts?

I'm not trying to defend Bartow here. what I am saying is that this myth that Forbes came into a terrible situation and had to build ETSU is not true. If the rumors are correct, Shay will be inheriting a tougher situation than Forbes did.

I also think it is very troubling from a culture perspective that a 3 year guy like Hodges is wanting to leave. I guess when all Bo seen was a parade of guys in and out it made it easy for him to think about bolting. He should have been the one calling all the players and making sure they are on board for one last run and to defend their title.

(05-20-2020 08:46 AM)brock20 Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 08:30 AM)GoBucsGo Wrote:  Couldn't agree ore, Rod. It was mentioned that Forbes brought in Cromer, Guyn, & Bello, but won with "mostly Bartow's players." Holy smokes, were you paying attention? Those 3 were the core of the 2015-16 team's success. Without them, and another year of Bartow and Bartow-typical type recruits at the guard position, that team may have slipped to well below average and the bottom of the SoCon. Look, I don't think Bartow was all bad, and he won some games and some titles. However, his last 5 years here we were 86-77, and four of those were in the ASun. Mediocre at best. I get that Devin Harris became an all league player at Jacksonville, but he was nowhere near an all league player in the SoCon or at ETSU.

Did you actually read the posts?

I'm not trying to defend Bartow here. what I am saying is that this myth that Forbes came into a terrible situation and had to build ETSU is not true. If the rumors are correct, Shay will be inheriting a tougher situation than Forbes did.

I also think it is very troubling from a culture perspective that a 3 year guy like Hodges is wanting to leave. I guess when all Bo seen was a parade of guys in and out it made it easy for him to think about bolting. He should have been the one calling all the players and making sure they are on board for one last run and to defend their title.

Yeah I wasn't taking a shot at Bartow (for this), He left Forbes a core of players to build on who than added the final pieces, it wasn't a complete rebuild job. The guys just needed a coach and a system, Forbes brought that.

We have gone from a team ''expected'' to win the SoCon, to a team that ''could'' win the title. They'll be alot of new faces, and I'm getting excited about seeing those guys play. Let's hold a nationwide tryout for point guards and market it. The attention itself would highlight the program. Who knows, we might find a diamond in the rough, or a bag of rocks. I would love to find a PG between 5'6'' & 5'9'' who can push the ball up the court. Stranger things have been tried.

(05-20-2020 07:04 AM)RodShaw2 Wrote:  I don't understand what point you are trying to make doc (big surprise)
No the cupboard was not bare, but that was an average team Bartow left, Forbes came in and added the right ingredients and most importantly coached it and made it winner (Guyn,Cromer and Bello 1,2,3 leading scorers)

The point I was trying to make - again - is that bartow was NOT a good coach. brock20 seems (sometimes) to be a bit of a bartow apologist. Thankfully, a bit later on, he says: "I'm not trying to defend Bartow here....". That's really all I was trying to point out. As one of the first here (along with you) to be fed up with bartow, it still bugs me when some here seem to try and defend him, even if a little. We *always* knew he could bring in good players; that's where the high level coaching ability ended, imo.

(05-20-2020 07:04 AM)RodShaw2 Wrote:  Bartow was a decent recruiter but a bad coach.
Forbes was a great recruiter and had a well-coached team.
some are saying Shay was responsible for a lot of that X's and O's.
Jury is still out on the recruiting but he shouldn't be judged by losing
players during a coaching change.

Yep. That's the story.

Bartow's recruiting was very odd. He would either get all league type of players or guys that looked like they should be playing division 7. Recruited very few middle of the road guys.

(05-20-2020 08:44 AM)bucfan81 Wrote:  I am hoping things will work out well and we have a great season coming up. What bothers me is that we had the 26th ranked team in the nation this year and now we are talking about a couple years rebuilding project? Forbes came in and did what was necessary to win every year and that is what we should expect going forward. If that is not happening then we are doing something wrong.

No, not necessarily. Steve Forbeses don't grow on trees. I suspect we've peaked for the near term, but hope I'm wrong. Heck, we may have peaked for ETSU history. People used to say we caught lightning in a bottle back in "the glory years" of Mister, et al, and that's not wrong. I think maybe we did again with Forbes, even if a slightly less hot (which we love to debate) version of lightning. One of these days I'd like to hear what Sander has to say about this transition.

(05-20-2020 11:42 AM)ETSUAlumni Wrote:  Bartow's recruiting was very odd. He would either get all league type of players or guys that looked like they should be playing division 7. Recruited very few middle of the road guys.

Totally agree.

(05-20-2020 11:37 AM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 07:04 AM)RodShaw2 Wrote:  I don't understand what point you are trying to make doc (big surprise)
No the cupboard was not bare, but that was an average team Bartow left, Forbes came in and added the right ingredients and most importantly coached it and made it winner (Guyn,Cromer and Bello 1,2,3 leading scorers)

The point I was trying to make - again - is that bartow was NOT a good coach. brock20 seems (sometimes) to be a bit of a bartow apologist. Thankfully, a bit later on, he says: "I'm not trying to defend Bartow here....". That's really all I was trying to point out. As one of the first here (along with you) to be fed up with bartow, it still bugs me when some here seem to try and defend him, even if a little. We *always* knew he could bring in good players; that's where the high level coaching ability ended, imo.

No, my issue is that for the past couple of years the narrative around the college basketball landscape was that Forbes was doing things that had never been done at ETSU. It just got kind of annoying but it would have been fine if he actually was doing things that had never been done.

Honestly, if I just get to watch one true D1 basketball game at Freedom Hall next year, I will count my blessings. Some people couldn’t even afford a general admission ticket right now. If the games are played, whoever is playing, I have faith that Shay will keep this team in top of conference. I think 1st place will be the stretch goal, at least 3rd place should be the standard in a tough SoCon, and 4th place would be an acceptable (if not ideal) finish. Find a way to get some postseason play in so Shay gets that head coaching experience. Put the team in a position to take on 2021-22 with full confidence. This season will be a gauntlet. It will make the future seasons all the better. I know Noland & Sanders made the best decision that could be made for now. The true Buc fans aren’t going anywhere.

(05-20-2020 12:37 PM)brock20 Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 11:37 AM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  

(05-20-2020 07:04 AM)RodShaw2 Wrote:  I don't understand what point you are trying to make doc (big surprise)
No the cupboard was not bare, but that was an average team Bartow left, Forbes came in and added the right ingredients and most importantly coached it and made it winner (Guyn,Cromer and Bello 1,2,3 leading scorers)

The point I was trying to make - again - is that bartow was NOT a good coach. brock20 seems (sometimes) to be a bit of a bartow apologist. Thankfully, a bit later on, he says: "I'm not trying to defend Bartow here....". That's really all I was trying to point out. As one of the first here (along with you) to be fed up with bartow, it still bugs me when some here seem to try and defend him, even if a little. We *always* knew he could bring in good players; that's where the high level coaching ability ended, imo.

No, my issue is that for the past couple of years the narrative around the college basketball landscape was that Forbes was doing things that had never been done at ETSU. It just got kind of annoying but it would have been fine if he actually was doing things that had never been done.

I'm not one who's been saying anything like that.........but one *could* make that case. In the late '80s/early '90s, that team was built from incoming freshmen - plus Marty Story and Jason Niblett, I guess. No coach in ETSU history has come into the program, and taken it from what I'll call "mediocrity" (others may use a slightly different word) to great heights fairly immediately. And he did it incrementally - but that first year, with the "big 3" he brought in, was the giant step. Other years since got even better, but no huge dramatic change like that first year.

One *could* also make a case for Eddie D. doing that, but of course it wasn't quite the same. He took an absolutely terrible team, and built it up slowly over 3 or so years. Just by logic........*every* coaching change is gonna be different. One *could* argue that the job Eddie D. did was even better/harder than what Forbes did, and that would be a good arguement. Just apples (Forbes) vs. melons (Eddie D.).

This doesn't exactly belong here, but I can find no better thread for it. It looks like the vote scheduled for today isn't happening. But this article is yet more pub for ETSU (and Bo, without using his name):

speculation of the future implementation of the one-time transfer rule

I pretty much agree with almost all of that. It's just common sense, mostly.

[I had heard separately that the vote was not going to pass because the smaller schools had rallied together behind the scenes to quash it, thus the council decided to pull the vote.]

(05-20-2020 01:30 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  One *could* argue that the job Eddie D. did was even better/harder than what Forbes did, and that would be a good arguement. Just apples (Forbes) vs. melons (Eddie D.).

I do agree what Eddie D did was incredible, when you realize how bad the program was when he took it over. Eddie D also brought in some of the best 4 year talent the program has ever had (Wade, Wadood, Fields, Smith, Rhoda, Nuckles, Strong etc). AJ Jackson too. He was a star at Robert Morris and would have been at ETSU but Bartow ran him off

(05-20-2020 01:43 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  This doesn't exactly belong here, but I can find no better thread for it. It looks like the vote scheduled for today isn't happening. But this article is yet more pub for ETSU (and Bo, without using his name):

speculation of the future implementation of the one-time transfer rule

I pretty much agree with almost all of that. It's just common sense, mostly.

[I had heard separately that the vote was not going to pass because the smaller schools had rallied together behind the scenes to quash it, thus the council decided to pull the vote.]

I agree players should have the opportunity to transfer but
the 8th best player on a power five school versus the best player on a mid major is not a fair comparison. The power 5 school will continue to win. Not so with the mid major.

I think maybe we need to do away with college supported athletic programs. Maybe we should follow the European model and have city or community teams. If tri cities wants to have a team then raise the funding and join a league. Same for Knoxville or Nashville or Winston Salem.

Just a thought.