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dancingNMSUaggie Offline
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Post: #61
RE: WAC Football
(04-25-2020 10:56 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  So can the SoCon, MVC, and Big West start FBS football too since they were FBS decades ago?

Well, what your saying is not correct. They were division 1 conferences, not FBS conferences. Division 1 and Division 1-AA turned into FBS and FCS conferences. SoCon, MVC and Big West were never FBS conferences. The WAC was a FBS conference after the new designations by the NCAA for football divisions.
04-25-2020 12:26 PM
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LUSportsFan Online
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Post: #62
RE: WAC Football
(04-25-2020 10:56 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  So can the SoCon, MVC, and Big West start FBS football too since they were FBS decades ago?

Don't forget the Southland Conference and the Ivy League if you include the SoCon. All three were forced down at the same time to D-IAA (now FCS) for not meeting attendance requirements which were much more stringent than today's requirements. The MVC and Big West held on for several years after the force down so they might qualify. I don't know. If I recall correctly, back then the majority of the conference members had to either have a stadium with a capacity greater than 30,000 and average 15,000 in one year out of four (fuzzy memory on attendance requirement tied to stadium size) or average 15,000 for four years. The SLC came close, and easily met today's requiremnts. McNeese State and Southwestern Louisiana (now Louisiana) met the original requirements. The conference just needed one more to remain. In a what-if, Lamar and at least Louisiana Tech would have easily met today's requirements and came close, but no cigar to meeting the original requirements. Arkansas State may have also.

I don't know about other conferences, but the force down was brutal and disruptive for the Southland Conference. UT Arlington and later Lamar both dropped their football programs within 5-10 years. The core of a really good, tight knit conference started to break up. First Louisiana left to remain in D-IA. Then Lamar, Louisiana Tech, and Arkansas State, left the conference to join Louisiana, UTPA (predecessor of UTRGV) and New Orleans to form the basketball centric American South Conference. In basketball, to name a few, those were the Karl Malone at Louisiana Tech, Joe Dumars at McNeese State, and Andrew Toney at Louisiana years. There were some really good players at the other schools at that time also. For example, Lamar had 1st round through 4th round NBA draft picks in addition to lower round picks during that period.

The Independence Bowl in Shreveport originally had ties to the Southland Conference. It was started, in part, because of what happened to Arkansas State in the 1975 season. They won the conference championship witih an 11-0 NCAA Division I-A (now FBS) undefeated record, one of two D-IA undefeated teams in the nation, with no bowl invitation.

------------

To get this back to the WAC, it looks like they have the ticket to FBS should they decide to exercise it. (Sorry for the trip down memory lane.)
(This post was last modified: 04-25-2020 12:36 PM by LUSportsFan.)
04-25-2020 12:30 PM
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dancingNMSUaggie Offline
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Post: #63
RE: WAC Football
They have the ticket, no matter what whiny Aggie poster need the "proof". The proof has been presented a hundred times and our AD has said it a million times. The WAC has the opportunity to start FBS football again in the future. Whether its the immediate future or long off remains to be seen.
04-25-2020 12:35 PM
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chrisattsu Offline
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Post: #64
RE: WAC Football
(04-25-2020 12:26 PM)dancingNMSUaggie Wrote:  
(04-25-2020 10:56 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  So can the SoCon, MVC, and Big West start FBS football too since they were FBS decades ago?

Well, what your saying is not correct. They were division 1 conferences, not FBS conferences. Division 1 and Division 1-AA turned into FBS and FCS conferences. SoCon, MVC and Big West were never FBS conferences. The WAC was a FBS conference after the new designations by the NCAA for football divisions.
From reading the bylaw LU referenced, I would agree with that statement.

It says FBS not 1A. The WAC was the only other FBS conference not playing FBS today. The Big East transferred their FBS ticket to the AAC.

The point others made after this bylaw was brought up is that the College Football Playoffs (and their revenue payout) only include specific conferences and the WAC is not on that list. The WAC could start FBS but we not be part of the CFP or its contracts
04-25-2020 01:23 PM
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LUSportsFan Online
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Post: #65
RE: WAC Football
(04-25-2020 01:23 PM)chrisattsu Wrote:  
(04-25-2020 12:26 PM)dancingNMSUaggie Wrote:  
(04-25-2020 10:56 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  So can the SoCon, MVC, and Big West start FBS football too since they were FBS decades ago?

Well, what your saying is not correct. They were division 1 conferences, not FBS conferences. Division 1 and Division 1-AA turned into FBS and FCS conferences. SoCon, MVC and Big West were never FBS conferences. The WAC was a FBS conference after the new designations by the NCAA for football divisions.
From reading the bylaw LU referenced, I would agree with that statement.

It says FBS not 1A. The WAC was the only other FBS conference not playing FBS today. The Big East transferred their FBS ticket to the AAC.

The point others made after this bylaw was brought up is that the College Football Playoffs (and their revenue payout) only include specific conferences and the WAC is not on that list. The WAC could start FBS but we not be part of the CFP or its contracts

I'm not so certain that simply renaming subdivisions carries with it a break in the history of the subdivisions. The NCAA still uses terms similar to NCAA Division I Football Bowl Subdivision (Formerly Division I-A) and NCAA Division I Football Championship Subdivision (Formerly Division I-AA) in its descriptions.

Example: From NCAA - Divisional Differences...

There is no break in the records for either subdivision before or after the renaming in 2006. It is an interesting question, but I'm not so sure that Football Bowl Subdivision and Football Championship Subdivision mean anything other than a new way of identifying the two subdivisions. I would have expected to see an effective date along with the renaming if the new names carried more weight than just merely reidentifying something more clearly.
04-25-2020 02:50 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #66
RE: WAC Football
(04-25-2020 01:23 PM)chrisattsu Wrote:  
(04-25-2020 12:26 PM)dancingNMSUaggie Wrote:  
(04-25-2020 10:56 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  So can the SoCon, MVC, and Big West start FBS football too since they were FBS decades ago?

Well, what your saying is not correct. They were division 1 conferences, not FBS conferences. Division 1 and Division 1-AA turned into FBS and FCS conferences. SoCon, MVC and Big West were never FBS conferences. The WAC was a FBS conference after the new designations by the NCAA for football divisions.
From reading the bylaw LU referenced, I would agree with that statement.

It says FBS not 1A. The WAC was the only other FBS conference not playing FBS today. The Big East transferred their FBS ticket to the AAC.

The point others made after this bylaw was brought up is that the College Football Playoffs (and their revenue payout) only include specific conferences and the WAC is not on that list. The WAC could start FBS but we not be part of the CFP or its contracts

FBS and Division I-A are the exact same thing. They literally renamed it in the mid 2000s.
04-26-2020 08:25 AM
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chrisattsu Offline
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Post: #67
RE: WAC Football
(04-26-2020 08:25 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(04-25-2020 01:23 PM)chrisattsu Wrote:  
(04-25-2020 12:26 PM)dancingNMSUaggie Wrote:  
(04-25-2020 10:56 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  So can the SoCon, MVC, and Big West start FBS football too since they were FBS decades ago?

Well, what your saying is not correct. They were division 1 conferences, not FBS conferences. Division 1 and Division 1-AA turned into FBS and FCS conferences. SoCon, MVC and Big West were never FBS conferences. The WAC was a FBS conference after the new designations by the NCAA for football divisions.
From reading the bylaw LU referenced, I would agree with that statement.

It says FBS not 1A. The WAC was the only other FBS conference not playing FBS today. The Big East transferred their FBS ticket to the AAC.

The point others made after this bylaw was brought up is that the College Football Playoffs (and their revenue payout) only include specific conferences and the WAC is not on that list. The WAC could start FBS but we not be part of the CFP or its contracts

FBS and Division I-A are the exact same thing. They literally renamed it in the mid 2000s.
I dont disagree with you. I'm just saying that if the language said FBS. WAC was FBS the Socon, Southland, Ivy were not.

They would have to go through the extra step of making the argument that I-A = FBS and get the P5 cartel to agree
04-26-2020 09:46 AM
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dancingNMSUaggie Offline
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Post: #68
RE: WAC Football
(04-26-2020 08:25 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(04-25-2020 01:23 PM)chrisattsu Wrote:  
(04-25-2020 12:26 PM)dancingNMSUaggie Wrote:  
(04-25-2020 10:56 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  So can the SoCon, MVC, and Big West start FBS football too since they were FBS decades ago?

Well, what your saying is not correct. They were division 1 conferences, not FBS conferences. Division 1 and Division 1-AA turned into FBS and FCS conferences. SoCon, MVC and Big West were never FBS conferences. The WAC was a FBS conference after the new designations by the NCAA for football divisions.
From reading the bylaw LU referenced, I would agree with that statement.

It says FBS not 1A. The WAC was the only other FBS conference not playing FBS today. The Big East transferred their FBS ticket to the AAC.

The point others made after this bylaw was brought up is that the College Football Playoffs (and their revenue payout) only include specific conferences and the WAC is not on that list. The WAC could start FBS but we not be part of the CFP or its contracts

FBS and Division I-A are the exact same thing. They literally renamed it in the mid 2000s.

Again. Wrong. They are not the exact same thing and the rules of the NCAA apply differently to those schools. Do FCS schools qualify for bowl games? NO. All those FCS schools were Division I on the same level of SEC schools. When the FBS and FCS divisions were made it changed all that.
04-26-2020 10:27 AM
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NMSUPistolPete Offline
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Post: #69
RE: WAC Football
What is now the FBS (Football Bowl Subdivision) used to be Division 1A and what is now the FCS (Football Championship Division) used to be Division 1AA. The FBS was operated under the BCS (Bowl Championship Series) system. And, has since changed to the CFP (College Football Playoff) system. WAC football operated under the BCS which means if they have a FBS football once again, they could participate in bowl games. But since they were not around when the CFP was started, they can not participate in the college football playoff or receive money generated by this new system; at least not without approval from the participating FBS conferences. The FCS has a straight forward playoff system (tournament) operated by the NCAA.
04-26-2020 11:07 AM
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jdgaucho Offline
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Post: #70
RE: WAC Football
(04-26-2020 10:27 AM)dancingNMSUaggie Wrote:  
(04-26-2020 08:25 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(04-25-2020 01:23 PM)chrisattsu Wrote:  
(04-25-2020 12:26 PM)dancingNMSUaggie Wrote:  
(04-25-2020 10:56 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  So can the SoCon, MVC, and Big West start FBS football too since they were FBS decades ago?

Well, what your saying is not correct. They were division 1 conferences, not FBS conferences. Division 1 and Division 1-AA turned into FBS and FCS conferences. SoCon, MVC and Big West were never FBS conferences. The WAC was a FBS conference after the new designations by the NCAA for football divisions.
From reading the bylaw LU referenced, I would agree with that statement.

It says FBS not 1A. The WAC was the only other FBS conference not playing FBS today. The Big East transferred their FBS ticket to the AAC.

The point others made after this bylaw was brought up is that the College Football Playoffs (and their revenue payout) only include specific conferences and the WAC is not on that list. The WAC could start FBS but we not be part of the CFP or its contracts

FBS and Division I-A are the exact same thing. They literally renamed it in the mid 2000s.

Again. Wrong. They are not the exact same thing and the rules of the NCAA apply differently to those schools. Do FCS schools qualify for bowl games? NO. All those FCS schools were Division I on the same level of SEC schools. When the FBS and FCS divisions were made it changed all that.

The Big West champion qualified for a bowl game for most of the time it sponsored football. Paired with the MAC champion.

Sounds like FBS to me 07-coffee3
04-26-2020 11:19 AM
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dancingNMSUaggie Offline
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Post: #71
RE: WAC Football
Nope Gaucho. Division 1 football, not FBS football. When FBS came along most Big West schools got rid of their programs (e.g.-Pacific and Cal-State Fullerton), and the rest left and stayed División 1/FBS NMSU, UNLV, Utah State, etc. I can’t believe people are having a hard time understanding this.
04-26-2020 04:42 PM
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jdgaucho Offline
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Post: #72
RE: WAC Football
When did Boise move up to FBS?
04-26-2020 05:45 PM
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dancingNMSUaggie Offline
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Post: #73
RE: WAC Football
When they moved to the WAC
04-26-2020 06:11 PM
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LUSportsFan Online
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Post: #74
RE: WAC Football
(04-26-2020 04:42 PM)dancingNMSUaggie Wrote:  Nope Gaucho. Division 1 football, not FBS football. When FBS came along most Big West schools got rid of their programs (e.g.-Pacific and Cal-State Fullerton), and the rest left and stayed División 1/FBS NMSU, UNLV, Utah State, etc. I can’t believe people are having a hard time understanding this.

The Division I name started in 1973. Division I was primarily made up of conferences which had formerly competed in the NCAA University Division; however, several former College Division conferences also elected to compete at the Division I level. Division I split into two subdivisions in 1978 (D-IA which was renamed to Football Bowl Subdivision in 2006 and D-IAA which was renamed to Football Championship Subdivision in 2006).

The Pacific Coast Athletic Association, renamed the Big West Conference in 1988, competed in Division I-A (renamed Football Bowl Subdivision in 2006) met the requirements, and competed in the D-IA (renamed Football Bowl Subdivision in 2006) from 1978 until the conference stopped sponsoring football in 2000.

The Big West conference participated in bowls. The Big West was initially tied to the California Bowl from 1981-1991 which featured the Big West champion vs the MAC Champion. The Big West and MAC moved their tie-in to the Las Vegas Bowl starting in 1992 through 1996. The Big West then moved its tie-in to the Humanitarian Bowl from 1997-2000 when the conference discontinued football sponsorship.

The question goes back to whether or not a conference loses its historical rights as the result of renaming of the two subdivisions for more clarity. My understanding is that the conferences did not and I recall reading articles at the time to that effect, but it looks like the links have been lost over the fourteen years that have passed since the subdivision renaming.
(This post was last modified: 04-26-2020 06:26 PM by LUSportsFan.)
04-26-2020 06:24 PM
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CrimsonPhantom Offline
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Post: #75
RE: WAC Football
This thread reminds me of this scene:



04-26-2020 07:12 PM
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NMSUPistolPete Offline
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Post: #76
RE: WAC Football
(04-26-2020 06:24 PM)LUSportsFan Wrote:  
(04-26-2020 04:42 PM)dancingNMSUaggie Wrote:  Nope Gaucho. Division 1 football, not FBS football. When FBS came along most Big West schools got rid of their programs (e.g.-Pacific and Cal-State Fullerton), and the rest left and stayed División 1/FBS NMSU, UNLV, Utah State, etc. I can’t believe people are having a hard time understanding this.

The Division I name started in 1973. Division I was primarily made up of conferences which had formerly competed in the NCAA University Division; however, several former College Division conferences also elected to compete at the Division I level. Division I split into two subdivisions in 1978 (D-IA which was renamed to Football Bowl Subdivision in 2006 and D-IAA which was renamed to Football Championship Subdivision in 2006).

The Pacific Coast Athletic Association, renamed the Big West Conference in 1988, competed in Division I-A (renamed Football Bowl Subdivision in 2006) met the requirements, and competed in the D-IA (renamed Football Bowl Subdivision in 2006) from 1978 until the conference stopped sponsoring football in 2000.

The Big West conference participated in bowls. The Big West was initially tied to the California Bowl from 1981-1991 which featured the Big West champion vs the MAC Champion. The Big West and MAC moved their tie-in to the Las Vegas Bowl starting in 1992 through 1996. The Big West then moved its tie-in to the Humanitarian Bowl from 1997-2000 when the conference discontinued football sponsorship.

The question goes back to whether or not a conference loses its historical rights as the result of renaming of the two subdivisions for more clarity. My understanding is that the conferences did not and I recall reading articles at the time to that effect, but it looks like the links have been lost over the fourteen years that have passed since the subdivision renaming.

During the a period during mid 1990's the Big West became a consortium rather than a conference; adding a number of football-only schools, since there was no longer enough Big West football playing schools in the conference. When the Big West closed it doors on FBS football in 2001, there were only three football playing schools in left the conference, Boise State, Utah State, and Idaho. Boise State joined the WAC in 2001 while Utah State went independent for a couple years before joining (in 2003) newly formed Sun Belt "football" Conference. Idaho also joined the Sun Belt as a football-only member but earlier in 2001; While NMSU joined as a full SBC member in 2000 and only played it final football year (2001) in the Big West as a football-only member. Once the WAC imploded forming the offshoot MWC, the WAC scooped up Utah State, Idaho, and New Mexico State as full members. This was probably the biggest mistake NMSU made for its football stability to leave the SBC; as it was a founding member of FBS level football in the SBC. Nevertheless, as the BCS was forming, the Big West going through an upheaval with only 6 football playing schools in the conference; three of which were only football members only (NMSU, Arkansas State, and North Texas) as the BWC closed its doors on FBS football. There are no original football members in the BWC now. So that might play a factor on the viability of FBS ever returning to the BWC.
(This post was last modified: 04-26-2020 07:54 PM by NMSUPistolPete.)
04-26-2020 07:49 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #77
RE: WAC Football
Joining the WAC certainly looked like a great idea for NMSU in 2005. Who knew what chaos was going to ensue in the 2010-2013 span. The WAC had more bowl tie ins and some programs that NMSU had some history with: Utah St, Fresno St, and San Jose St.

Had they chosen to stay in the SBC in 2005 things certainly would have been different. Maybe LA Tech decides they’d rather be more regional instead of with 7 West Coast schools. Maybe you get a 14 or 16 member WAC/SBC football conference.

Back to the thread though. Since Division I-A and FBS are synonymous terms used by the NCAA at different time to refer to the same group of schools if the WAC has a golden ticket then so does the Big West and all of the conferences who were briefly DI-A from 1978-1985. If the Golden Ticket theory is true why hasn’t the WAC been able to recruit a single FBS aspirational school to the conference?
04-26-2020 08:41 PM
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NMSUPistolPete Offline
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Post: #78
RE: WAC Football
(04-26-2020 08:41 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Joining the WAC certainly looked like a great idea for NMSU in 2005. Who knew what chaos was going to ensue in the 2010-2013 span. The WAC had more bowl tie ins and some programs that NMSU had some history with: Utah St, Fresno St, and San Jose St.

Had they chosen to stay in the SBC in 2005 things certainly would have been different. Maybe LA Tech decides they’d rather be more regional instead of with 7 West Coast schools. Maybe you get a 14 or 16 member WAC/SBC football conference.

Back to the thread though. Since Division I-A and FBS are synonymous terms used by the NCAA at different time to refer to the same group of schools if the WAC has a golden ticket then so does the Big West and all of the conferences who were briefly DI-A from 1978-1985. If the Golden Ticket theory is true why hasn’t the WAC been able to recruit a single FBS aspirational school to the conference?

This is a case of fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. The reason the Big West football fell apart in the late 1990's was because of the same schools who left NMSU holding the bag in 2013 by leaving the WAC. NMSU football fortunes would have been in a better place if they had just stayed in the SBC. North Texas was smart enough not to succumb to the WAC's overtures in 2005 as they stayed in the SBC then; and have now moved on to C-USA.
(This post was last modified: 04-26-2020 09:12 PM by NMSUPistolPete.)
04-26-2020 09:07 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #79
RE: WAC Football
McNeese State was the last Southland school that made a bowl game. I think they played Big West teams. I think 81 was their last appearance. From 1978 to 1982, MVC, Southland and Southern had half the teams in 1A and the other half in 1AA.
For history of conferences, WAC, BIg West, MVC, Southland and Southern along with SWC are still referred in history as former FBS conference to this day.
04-27-2020 01:18 AM
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NMSUPistolPete Offline
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RE: WAC Football
It suck that NMSU has such a bad football program. NMSU has left just about every conference because of football. They left the Missouri Valley because the conference did not meet the D1A requirements of the time. All D1A teams were required to have a 30,000-seat football stadium and average 17,000 attendance at least once every four years. Most of the Missouri Valley members played in stadiums about 1/2 or 2/3 the size of Aggie Memorial Stadium. NMSU then joined the PCAA. But it didn't take long for many of the California schools to drop football because of financial constraints. The PCAA then (Big West now) add schools that had out grown the Big Sky Conference... Nevada, Boise State, Idaho to continue football. But as the WAC grew in stature and size, they started plucking away Big West schools. Eventually, the Big West had to turn the chapter on FBS football. As that happened, NMSU was fortunate that the Sun Belt Commissioner (Wright Waters) had the idea to start up FBS football in his conference. NMSU had a new home again. Then the WAC imploded due to over growth. And Mr. Peanut Karl Benson came looking for new members. Again NMSU jumped west and joined the WAC (big mistake). Of course we know what happened to the WAC. In an irony, Benson became the Commissioner of the SBC after Waters retired. He threw a life line to NMSU (and Idaho) only to sever it when it no longer served his purpose. Benson played a major factor in NMSU football path. Now, Benson is retired. And, with major changes to TV contracts coming and the presence of COVID19, which is draining conference coffers as we speak, we will see what doors might open (and close) for NMSU football.
(This post was last modified: 04-27-2020 02:15 AM by NMSUPistolPete.)
04-27-2020 02:12 AM
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