(04-15-2020 02:01 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  The question I have is Tulsa going to consider a FB drop themselves under the gun with enrollment. They could play soccer in it instead.

Replacing FB with soccer is the better way than cutting soccer to save the salary of a man making 2.4 million a year.

I think Tulsa will have to drop football or drop to Division 2. They were already in deep financial trouble and the Corona virus is probably the final straw.

Tulsa has 6 home games with OU, Arkansas, & OSU through 2030. They'll probably do everything possible to keep football alive through then.

(04-17-2020 11:14 AM)texoma Wrote:  

(04-15-2020 02:01 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  The question I have is Tulsa going to consider a FB drop themselves under the gun with enrollment. They could play soccer in it instead.

Replacing FB with soccer is the better way than cutting soccer to save the salary of a man making 2.4 million a year.

I think Tulsa will have to drop football or drop to Division 2. They were already in deep financial trouble and the Corona virus is probably the final straw.

What kind of financial trouble are they having? I was not aware of that.

I know they have a huge endowment for a school of their size.

(04-17-2020 11:14 AM)texoma Wrote:  

(04-15-2020 02:01 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  The question I have is Tulsa going to consider a FB drop themselves under the gun with enrollment. They could play soccer in it instead.

Replacing FB with soccer is the better way than cutting soccer to save the salary of a man making 2.4 million a year.

I think Tulsa will have to drop football or drop to Division 2. They were already in deep financial trouble and the Corona virus is probably the final straw.

Deep trouble is an understatement. I think they're in the most trouble of any school with a $500 million+ endowment.

Five years of layoffs, department consolidations, and budget cuts can't close a budget deficit that is caused by being completely out of touch with their primary customers. Neither will doubling down on the strategies that turned off their customers in the first place.

(04-15-2020 11:40 PM)NoDak Wrote:  WSU knows that AAC football .membership will not be easy. They will have to form a winning tradition and then maybe get in. There will be other FBS programs that will soon appear, like Mo St and. NDSU. NDSU's AD has said they will make a decision of FBS within a couple of years, so it is already planned.

WSU is in a lightly populated basketball state that already has 2 P5 schools. Football just doesn't make sense for them.

(04-17-2020 01:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-15-2020 11:40 PM)NoDak Wrote:  WSU knows that AAC football .membership will not be easy. They will have to form a winning tradition and then maybe get in. There will be other FBS programs that will soon appear, like Mo St and. NDSU. NDSU's AD has said they will make a decision of FBS within a couple of years, so it is already planned.

WSU is in a lightly populated basketball state that already has 2 P5 schools. Football just doesn't make sense for them.

So the same could be said for Kentucky, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Colorado, Utah, Louisiana, etc.

What has changed since 1986 when they were losing money and shut down football?

1. They are in a better conference for all sports except football.
2. TV money is much larger for football.
3. However they are probably getting almost as much without the football expense.

They are probably better off standing pat unless a sugar daddy comes along needing a write off.

(04-17-2020 11:58 AM)MAcFroggy Wrote:  

(04-17-2020 11:14 AM)texoma Wrote:  

(04-15-2020 02:01 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  The question I have is Tulsa going to consider a FB drop themselves under the gun with enrollment. They could play soccer in it instead.

Replacing FB with soccer is the better way than cutting soccer to save the salary of a man making 2.4 million a year.

I think Tulsa will have to drop football or drop to Division 2. They were already in deep financial trouble and the Corona virus is probably the final straw.

What kind of financial trouble are they having? I was not aware of that.

I know they have a huge endowment for a school of their size.

They are a relatively small school (appx. 4500 students) with a student body made up of about 20% foreign students (in the past a great source of income but probably diminishing significantly given the times). Since they are private, they receive no state aid or public funding.
One of their biggest strengths is Petroleum Engineering, presently not a particularly attractive field. They do have a good law school I understand but it's rep is mostly regional rather than national. Undergraduate tuition is over $40,000 per year....that is NOT a typo (it is $1562 per credit hour!) and that does NOT include room/board/books, etc.). About 50% of the undergraduates (3100 students) receive aid averaging $30,000 a year so I think you can see where much of the endowment income goes. In 2015 TU had to layoff 50 staff members, suspended contributions to the pension plan and "write off" $14.5M of pledges that had been expected but were not received. They seem to be still recovering from that. No doubt the Covid 19 situation will not improve their position.
Supposedly their athletic program (men & women's) "break even" on a revenue/expense basis but there is a concern that the accounting is "questionable", though I think that is a concern for many schools. However, because they are private they do not have to disclose much about their athletic department that they don't want to.

A DI school that considers itself selective would never drop to DII. DIII perhaps, but. never DIII. UCSD was near the last AAU DII. Don t think even UCSD will go.that route.

(04-17-2020 02:56 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  What has changed since 1986 when they were losing money and shut down football?

1. They are in a better conference for all sports except football.
2. TV money is much larger for football.
3. However they are probably getting almost as much without the football expense.

They are probably better off standing pat unless a sugar daddy comes along needing a write off.

The .MVC relied on Drake football. The new teams were FCS, like UNI, Mo St, SIU,and Mo St. They weren't going to upgrade for that collection.

(04-17-2020 02:03 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-17-2020 01:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-15-2020 11:40 PM)NoDak Wrote:  WSU knows that AAC football .membership will not be easy. They will have to form a winning tradition and then maybe get in. There will be other FBS programs that will soon appear, like Mo St and. NDSU. NDSU's AD has said they will make a decision of FBS within a couple of years, so it is already planned.

WSU is in a lightly populated basketball state that already has 2 P5 schools. Football just doesn't make sense for them.

So the same could be said for Kentucky, Mississippi, Oklahoma,
Colorado, Utah, Louisiana, etc.

Yeah, the same could be said for Mississippi and Oklahoma ... it's not clear that this would be a good time for Southern Miss or Tulsa to start up a program if they were not already established.

Utah is not really comparable, since BYU draws support from Mormon populations across the West, so it's not really as constrained by its local population as many other Universities.

Louisiana has 50% more population, and is one of the top five or so recruiting grounds in the country, which indicates that football support will be larger for the same population, and has only one P5 program to support ... and the challenges of one of its programs to maintain FBS level athletic department budgets and facilities suggests that 1 P5 and 4 Go5 schools might indeed by one too many.

Kentucky: 50% more population, 2P5 and 1 Go5 school
Colorado: Twice the population, 1P5 and 2 Go5 schools, one a Military Academy
... either of those are evidence for the other side ... if that is what can be comfortably supported, a state with Kansas's population and 2 P5 schools could well be considered to be fully stocked with FBS football.

(04-18-2020 04:34 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-17-2020 02:03 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-17-2020 01:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-15-2020 11:40 PM)NoDak Wrote:  WSU knows that AAC football .membership will not be easy. They will have to form a winning tradition and then maybe get in. There will be other FBS programs that will soon appear, like Mo St and. NDSU. NDSU's AD has said they will make a decision of FBS within a couple of years, so it is already planned.

WSU is in a lightly populated basketball state that already has 2 P5 schools. Football just doesn't make sense for them.

So the same could be said for Kentucky, Mississippi, Oklahoma,
Colorado, Utah, Louisiana, etc.

Yeah, the same could be said for Mississippi and Oklahoma ... it's not clear that this would be a good time for Southern Miss or Tulsa to start up a program if they were not already established.

Utah is not really comparable, since BYU draws support from Mormon populations across the West, so it's not really as constrained by its local population as many other Universities.

Louisiana has 50% more population, and is one of the top five or so recruiting grounds in the country, which indicates that football support will be larger for the same population, and has only one P5 program to support ... and the challenges of one of its programs to maintain FBS level athletic department budgets and facilities suggests that 1 P5 and 4 Go5 schools might indeed by one too many.

Kentucky: 50% more population, 2P5 and 1 Go5 school
Colorado: Twice the population, 1P5 and 2 Go5 schools, one a Military Academy
... either of those are evidence for the other side ... if that is what can be comfortably supported, a state with Kansas's population and 2 P5 schools could well be considered to be fully stocked with FBS football.

Kansas is not a P5 football program normally as they perpetually lose badly. It wouldn't be hard for WSU to exceed the Jayhawks shortly.

(04-17-2020 07:06 PM)ICThawk Wrote:  

(04-17-2020 11:58 AM)MAcFroggy Wrote:  

(04-17-2020 11:14 AM)texoma Wrote:  

(04-15-2020 02:01 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  The question I have is Tulsa going to consider a FB drop themselves under the gun with enrollment. They could play soccer in it instead.

Replacing FB with soccer is the better way than cutting soccer to save the salary of a man making 2.4 million a year.

I think Tulsa will have to drop football or drop to Division 2. They were already in deep financial trouble and the Corona virus is probably the final straw.

What kind of financial trouble are they having? I was not aware of that.

I know they have a huge endowment for a school of their size.

They are a relatively small school (appx. 4500 students) with a student body made up of about 20% foreign students (in the past a great source of income but probably diminishing significantly given the times). Since they are private, they receive no state aid or public funding.
One of their biggest strengths is Petroleum Engineering, presently not a particularly attractive field. They do have a good law school I understand but it's rep is mostly regional rather than national. Undergraduate tuition is over $40,000 per year....that is NOT a typo (it is $1562 per credit hour!) and that does NOT include room/board/books, etc.). About 50% of the undergraduates (3100 students) receive aid averaging $30,000 a year so I think you can see where much of the endowment income goes. In 2015 TU had to layoff 50 staff members, suspended contributions to the pension plan and "write off" $14.5M of pledges that had been expected but were not received. They seem to be still recovering from that. No doubt the Covid 19 situation will not improve their position.
Supposedly their athletic program (men & women's) "break even" on a revenue/expense basis but there is a concern that the accounting is "questionable", though I think that is a concern for many schools. However, because they are private they do not have to disclose much about their athletic department that they don't want to.

Excellent post. As you pointed out, Tulsa is the smallest school in D1 with 3,100 students. The School of Law consists of primarily working business people. A recent article in The Voice, a local Tulsa newspaper, reported that Tulsa was losing about $10 million per year on the football program.

I agree with the questionable accounting comment. Many schools report revenue, no matter where it comes from, as income and it is always balanced with expenses. So it looks like athletics is breaking even, even though it may be losing large sums of money.

(04-18-2020 09:50 AM)NoDak Wrote:  Kansas is not a P5 football program normally as they perpetually lose badly.

This is a non sequitur, as a "P5 program" is one in a P5 conference.

Quote: It wouldn't be hard for WSU to exceed the Jayhawks shortly.

This, by contrast, appears delusional. A university which hasn't fielded a football team since 1986 and which hadn't experienced success on the Gridiron since the 1960s is going to quickly establish an FBS program capable of beating even a bad P5 team?

(04-18-2020 11:27 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-18-2020 09:50 AM)NoDak Wrote:  Kansas is not a P5 football program normally as they perpetually lose badly.

This is a non sequitur, as a "P5 program" is one in a P5 conference.

Quote: It wouldn't be hard for WSU to exceed the Jayhawks shortly.

This, by contrast, appears delusional. A university which hasn't fielded a football team since 1986 and which hadn't experienced success on the Gridiron since the 1960s is going to quickly establish an FBS program capable of beating even a bad P5 team?

It is delusional.....pure and simple.

(04-17-2020 11:50 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Tulsa has 6 home games with OU, Arkansas, & OSU through 2030. They'll probably do everything possible to keep football alive through then.

I agree. However, they currently are doing everything possible just to keep their football program alive, but with the University's financial issues that will be hard to accomplish. Now add the financial impact of the Corona virus.

They are also struggling, big time, with educational issues and fighting with the faculty etc.

It is not a good situation.

Hold up.

None of y'all linked to the football study they released nearly four years ago in June 2016?

Here it is.

You're welcome.

(04-17-2020 02:03 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-17-2020 01:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-15-2020 11:40 PM)NoDak Wrote:  WSU knows that AAC football .membership will not be easy. They will have to form a winning tradition and then maybe get in. There will be other FBS programs that will soon appear, like Mo St and. NDSU. NDSU's AD has said they will make a decision of FBS within a couple of years, so it is already planned.

WSU is in a lightly populated basketball state that already has 2 P5 schools. Football just doesn't make sense for them.

So the same could be said for Kentucky, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Colorado, Utah, Louisiana, etc.

Western Kentucky doesn't make sense in FBS.
Kentucky is the only one of those that is a basketball state. And Utah is the only one you mentioned that is lightly populated.

(04-18-2020 09:50 AM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-18-2020 04:34 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-17-2020 02:03 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(04-17-2020 01:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(04-15-2020 11:40 PM)NoDak Wrote:  WSU knows that AAC football .membership will not be easy. They will have to form a winning tradition and then maybe get in. There will be other FBS programs that will soon appear, like Mo St and. NDSU. NDSU's AD has said they will make a decision of FBS within a couple of years, so it is already planned.

WSU is in a lightly populated basketball state that already has 2 P5 schools. Football just doesn't make sense for them.

So the same could be said for Kentucky, Mississippi, Oklahoma,
Colorado, Utah, Louisiana, etc.

Yeah, the same could be said for Mississippi and Oklahoma ... it's not clear that this would be a good time for Southern Miss or Tulsa to start up a program if they were not already established.

Utah is not really comparable, since BYU draws support from Mormon populations across the West, so it's not really as constrained by its local population as many other Universities.

Louisiana has 50% more population, and is one of the top five or so recruiting grounds in the country, which indicates that football support will be larger for the same population, and has only one P5 program to support ... and the challenges of one of its programs to maintain FBS level athletic department budgets and facilities suggests that 1 P5 and 4 Go5 schools might indeed by one too many.

Kentucky: 50% more population, 2P5 and 1 Go5 school
Colorado: Twice the population, 1P5 and 2 Go5 schools, one a Military Academy
... either of those are evidence for the other side ... if that is what can be comfortably supported, a state with Kansas's population and 2 P5 schools could well be considered to be fully stocked with FBS football.

Kansas is not a P5 football program normally as they perpetually lose badly. It wouldn't be hard for WSU to exceed the Jayhawks shortly.

And yet Kansas was ranked in the final top 10 in '94 and '06 so there is precedent for success. 2 times in the top 10 in that time frame probably puts them in the middle of the P5, even if they are at the bottom right now.

(04-18-2020 01:57 PM)texoma Wrote:  

(04-18-2020 11:27 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(04-18-2020 09:50 AM)NoDak Wrote:  Kansas is not a P5 football program normally as they perpetually lose badly.

This is a non sequitur, as a "P5 program" is one in a P5 conference.

Quote: It wouldn't be hard for WSU to exceed the Jayhawks shortly.

This, by contrast, appears delusional. A university which hasn't fielded a football team since 1986 and which hadn't experienced success on the Gridiron since the 1960s is going to quickly establish an FBS program capable of beating even a bad P5 team?

It is delusional.....pure and simple.

KU has been 2-4 vs Costal Carolina, Indiana St, the Nicholas St the last two year so it truly ridiculous to be cast as a powerful P5 program. Saying it's program deserves to be considered P5 strength is delusional.