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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #61
RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
(04-18-2020 11:01 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  JMU is literally the glue holding the the CAA together. The instant they decide to move up William & Mary will go to the Patriot and so will Richmond FB.

Stony Brook, Albany, UNH, and Maine will see to it that America East takes over sponsorship of CAA fb. Delaware and Towson might get offered full membership. Villanova, URI, and maybe Monmouth get asked to be football only members.

Where will Elon go? Curious because my wife is an alum.
04-19-2020 06:03 AM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #62
RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
(04-19-2020 06:03 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(04-18-2020 11:01 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  JMU is literally the glue holding the the CAA together. The instant they decide to move up William & Mary will go to the Patriot and so will Richmond FB.

Stony Brook, Albany, UNH, and Maine will see to it that America East takes over sponsorship of CAA fb. Delaware and Towson might get offered full membership. Villanova, URI, and maybe Monmouth get asked to be football only members.

Where will Elon go? Curious because my wife is an alum.

Elon would probably be allowed to be an American East football affiliate for at least a few years.

If CAA’s full membership gets cut down to Northeastern, Hofstra, Drexel, Elon, UNCW, and CoC then Elon is going to have a lot of thinking to do. Maybe they try to get back in the SoCon for football and/or all sports.
04-19-2020 10:00 AM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #63
RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
(04-19-2020 10:00 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(04-19-2020 06:03 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(04-18-2020 11:01 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  JMU is literally the glue holding the the CAA together. The instant they decide to move up William & Mary will go to the Patriot and so will Richmond FB.

Stony Brook, Albany, UNH, and Maine will see to it that America East takes over sponsorship of CAA fb. Delaware and Towson might get offered full membership. Villanova, URI, and maybe Monmouth get asked to be football only members.

Where will Elon go? Curious because my wife is an alum.

Elon would probably be allowed to be an American East football affiliate for at least a few years.

If CAA’s full membership gets cut down to Northeastern, Hofstra, Drexel, Elon, UNCW, and CoC then Elon is going to have a lot of thinking to do. Maybe they try to get back in the SoCon for football and/or all sports.

Hmmm... I do think Elon may have burned some bridges with the SoCon when they left that league.

Quote:SoCon commissioner John Iamarino said in a statement released Thursday afternoon that Elon had developed a different vision for the league, which has historically been one with a broad range of members.

"In recent years, it became increasingly evident that Elon's negative view of the diversity in the Southern Conference was not shared by the majority of the membership," Iamarino said. "Our core group remains firmly committed to each other and to the academic and athletic success of the Southern Conference. We are preparing specific initiatives to achieve that success."

https://www.timesfreepress.com/news/spor...on/108960/

That was under the previous university president and a previous commissioner, though.

If JMY, W&M, Richmond (FB only), and Towson were all to leave, then there would be a huge geographical gap between the northern members and CofC, UNCW, and Elon. Those schools really would be in an uncomfortable situation.

Maybe Richmond, W&M, and Towson would still stick around without JMU. I don't know.
04-19-2020 10:41 AM
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SlyFox Offline
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Post: #64
RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
Burned bridges don't look quite as charred under current circumstances.
04-19-2020 10:54 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
(04-19-2020 10:54 AM)SlyFox Wrote:  Burned bridges don't look quite as charred under current circumstances.

I think some offenses can be repaired with time. Like, I suspect Davidson and CoC could go right back. The moves were about basketball commitment. Elon was something a little more fundamentally askew. I remember comments from the SoCon commissioner saying Elon’s move was lateral. That wasn’t said about CoC. Ouch.

I don’t know what all happened, but, Elon made some members pretty ticked about the way they left the conference. For Elon, if they want back in, I suspect they’d have to prove they made SoCon better. I could see them coming back and saying Elon didn’t have the votes.
04-19-2020 11:50 AM
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Post: #66
RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
(04-15-2020 08:14 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(04-14-2020 10:40 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(04-14-2020 01:23 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The programs at ODU, Charlotte, UTSA, GA St, and USA all seem pretty interchangeable. They’ve all had their highs and lows.

Texas St sticks out to me as the poor performer of that class.

CCU and Liberty are both incomplete works in progress and it remains to be seen what trajectory they are on.

CCU, good for them if they can win and sustain at the FBS level, and I'm glad they were able to get around and over the blockage in SoCon and CAA/F, but, it wouldn't surprise me if they were bad for a long time. It goes back to the readiness thing in their selection, and the stadium/facility matter. CCU's upside was its growth and location. Football did well for where it was in the FCS landscape, but, it wasn't like Big South was a power player in the sport (it could at least send more than one team to the playoff, though).

As for a historical dog? UMass. Akron. I agree that Texas State isn't showing well. Two of the first three seasons, they were .500 or better, but it's been pretty bad ever since.

I have a feeling that CCU is going to take a lot of lumps. App St and GA Southern are well positioned to dominate SBC East. GA St could too with the right coach.

CCU got a bad deal in FCS with conference’s giving them the black ball. It’s too bad. I think the size of that school is very well suited for a great FCS program but as an FBS program I think they will always struggle against older and richer programs.

Texas St is feeling similar pains in a West dominated by the established Ark St and ULL programs.

We shouldn't even be talking about CCU. The College of Charleston is who had the worst launch...by not even having football in the first place when they're sitting in a nice metro area with a good academic reputation. And CofC has a real male:female imbalance that football would help address. They should have started football back in the 90s or early 00s, and they'd probably be in CUSA right now at worst.

CofC has really lacked ambition overall excepting the move to the CAA in basketball. They allowed a private, for-profit law school to set up in Charleston when they could have launched one. They demurred on setting up graduate programs and The Citadel ended up setting up some graduate programs to serve the community, which makes not a lick of sense institutionally. It really could be a premier school if the administration had some ambition.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2020 12:50 PM by CitrusUCF.)
04-19-2020 12:46 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #67
RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
The SoCon, sans ETSU, WCU, and UTC, is exactly the kind of conference that would be attractive to Elon: small expensive privates and military colleges that act more like privates than publics.

I always thought there move to the CAA was on odd one. I guess they thought being associated with northeastern schools would help them recruit tuition paying rich kids from that part of the country. I’m curious if that’s actually worked for them.
04-19-2020 12:46 PM
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whittx Offline
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RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
(04-19-2020 12:46 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  
(04-15-2020 08:14 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(04-14-2020 10:40 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(04-14-2020 01:23 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The programs at ODU, Charlotte, UTSA, GA St, and USA all seem pretty interchangeable. They’ve all had their highs and lows.

Texas St sticks out to me as the poor performer of that class.

CCU and Liberty are both incomplete works in progress and it remains to be seen what trajectory they are on.

CCU, good for them if they can win and sustain at the FBS level, and I'm glad they were able to get around and over the blockage in SoCon and CAA/F, but, it wouldn't surprise me if they were bad for a long time. It goes back to the readiness thing in their selection, and the stadium/facility matter. CCU's upside was its growth and location. Football did well for where it was in the FCS landscape, but, it wasn't like Big South was a power player in the sport (it could at least send more than one team to the playoff, though).

As for a historical dog? UMass. Akron. I agree that Texas State isn't showing well. Two of the first three seasons, they were .500 or better, but it's been pretty bad ever since.

I have a feeling that CCU is going to take a lot of lumps. App St and GA Southern are well positioned to dominate SBC East. GA St could too with the right coach.

CCU got a bad deal in FCS with conference’s giving them the black ball. It’s too bad. I think the size of that school is very well suited for a great FCS program but as an FBS program I think they will always struggle against older and richer programs.

Texas St is feeling similar pains in a West dominated by the established Ark St and ULL programs.

We shouldn't even be talking about CCU. The College of Charleston is who had the worst launch...by not even having football in the first place when they're sitting in a nice metro area with a good academic reputation. And CofC has a real male:female imbalance that football would help address. They should have started football back in the 90s or early 00s, and they'd probably be in CUSA right now at worst.

CofC has really lacked ambition overall excepting the move to the CAA in basketball. They allowed a private, for-profit law school to set up in Charleston when they could have launched one. They demurred on setting up graduate programs and The Citadel ended up setting up some graduate programs to serve the community, which makes not a lick of sense institutionally. It really could be a premier school if the administration had some ambition.

But they wouldn't have gotten the permits to put the football stadium at Patriot's Point and the Citadel had a G5 ready stadium at the time.
04-19-2020 01:11 PM
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sctvman Offline
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RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
They have been behind since the mid 1990s with a few decisions. Some they made, some others made.

You have to remember CofC didn’t even go D1 until 1991. As recently as 1988-89, CofC was in NAIA and the only D1 games they played were Baptist College (now Charleston Southern) and Citadel. They were a D1 independent for four seasons. In the last independent season they beat Georgia Tech, 8th in the country at Tech.

They then went to the TAAC, which was horrendous for travel. Two schools in Louisiana, FIU, FAU, Mercer, Samford, UCF, and Georgia State. They weren’t allowed to play in the conference tourney until 1997, but stole an at-large in 1994 losing to Tim Duncan’s first Wake team.

In 1995 and 96 they got NIT at-larges, then they made the tourney in ‘97, beating Maryland as a 12 seed even though they were ranked #16 in the nation. They then lost to Arizona by four points in the 2nd round, the national champs. They then made it again in ‘98 and ‘99.

They announced they were going to the SoCon in December of 1995, but couldn’t play in the league until 1998-99 because the TAAC wanted two years notice of a school leaving. That meant two more years of losing hundreds of thousands of dollars and playing in mostly band-box gyms.

Football wasn’t a consideration at the time. The Citadel was getting 12-15K a game at Johnson-Hagood, and was even using CofC’s cheerleaders.

Also not building their arena until 2008 cost them a lot. If they had built it in 2001 or 2002, they easily could have been added to the CAA in 2005 instead of Northeastern, which would have been a boon to recruiting. Georgia State was also added.

That move was all about football, which Hofstra and Northeastern dropped after ‘09, but Yeager (the commissioner at the time) adding them and Davidson would have sealed them as one of the top mid-major leagues. Northeastern probably would have stayed in the America East.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2020 03:59 PM by sctvman.)
04-19-2020 03:22 PM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
(04-19-2020 12:46 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The SoCon, sans ETSU, WCU, and UTC, is exactly the kind of conference that would be attractive to Elon: small expensive privates and military colleges that act more like privates than publics.

I always thought there move to the CAA was on odd one. I guess they thought being associated with northeastern schools would help them recruit tuition paying rich kids from that part of the country. I’m curious if that’s actually worked for them.

Dont forget non FB member UNCG.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2020 10:24 PM by Michael in Raleigh.)
04-19-2020 10:23 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
Elon could go park their football in the Big South.
04-20-2020 05:31 PM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
(04-19-2020 03:22 PM)sctvman Wrote:  They have been behind since the mid 1990s with a few decisions. Some they made, some others made.

You have to remember CofC didn’t even go D1 until 1991. As recently as 1988-89, CofC was in NAIA and the only D1 games they played were Baptist College (now Charleston Southern) and Citadel. They were a D1 independent for four seasons. In the last independent season they beat Georgia Tech, 8th in the country at Tech.

They then went to the TAAC, which was horrendous for travel. Two schools in Louisiana, FIU, FAU, Mercer, Samford, UCF, and Georgia State. They weren’t allowed to play in the conference tourney until 1997, but stole an at-large in 1994 losing to Tim Duncan’s first Wake team.

In 1995 and 96 they got NIT at-larges, then they made the tourney in ‘97, beating Maryland as a 12 seed even though they were ranked #16 in the nation. They then lost to Arizona by four points in the 2nd round, the national champs. They then made it again in ‘98 and ‘99.

They announced they were going to the SoCon in December of 1995, but couldn’t play in the league until 1998-99 because the TAAC wanted two years notice of a school leaving. That meant two more years of losing hundreds of thousands of dollars and playing in mostly band-box gyms.

Football wasn’t a consideration at the time. The Citadel was getting 12-15K a game at Johnson-Hagood, and was even using CofC’s cheerleaders.

Also not building their arena until 2008 cost them a lot. If they had built it in 2001 or 2002, they easily could have been added to the CAA in 2005 instead of Northeastern, which would have been a boon to recruiting. Georgia State was also added.

That move was all about football, which Hofstra and Northeastern dropped after ‘09, but Yeager (the commissioner at the time) adding them and Davidson would have sealed them as one of the top mid-major leagues. Northeastern probably would have stayed in the America East.

Do you think CofC's move to the CAA in 2013 was not the best, considering it came AFTER VCU, Ga. State, ODU, and Mason had left? All the best basketball resources had been depleted. Meanwhile (and granted, no one saw this coming) the SoCon has surged up the NET/RPI rankings.

Do you think CofC would return to the SoCon if it could?

BTw, my brother is a graduate of CofC. We remember that '97 team that beat Maryland and lost barely to national champion Arizona. That was a heck of a team.
04-20-2020 09:19 PM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #73
RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
To the OP's topic, I'm wondering if schools like UMass and Texas State should get a pass from being named the worst FCS/1-AA move-ups since they've only been FBS for 8 years or less. Others may have had some success here and there, but they've been (or were) FBS for much longer.

Idaho floundered for most of its 20ish years in FBS and was the only school to voluntarily move down. ULM, although it has been eligible for bowls a number of times and has some signature P5 wins, has made but one bowl. It has the lowest FBS revenue by multiple millions. Akron has made all of three bowl games and won only one since moving up in 1987. That's 30 of 33 seasons with no bowl game.

IMO, these schools deserve mention as the worst FCS move ups as 8 year FBS member UMass.
04-20-2020 09:40 PM
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Bobcat2013 Offline
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RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
I guess I'd never really thought about it but I guess we are among the worst of the move ups. I guess I just always assumed others, besides just UMASS, was worse than us. I dont really think its fair to judge coastal at this point either. Oh well, still better than being FCS.
04-21-2020 09:03 AM
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SlyFox Offline
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RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
Bobcat2013 - It was a great call to move up and Coach Fran had you guys poised for success. You have the resources to be successful. Frankly I am baffled how you guys haven't been a success yet. San Marcos should be a great place to recruit. It certainly worked well for Johnny B. Good.
04-21-2020 09:15 AM
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Bobcat2013 Offline
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RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
(04-21-2020 09:15 AM)SlyFox Wrote:  Bobcat2013 - It was a great call to move up and Coach Fran had you guys poised for success. You have the resources to be successful. Frankly I am baffled how you guys haven't been a success yet. San Marcos should be a great place to recruit. It certainly worked well for Johnny B. Good.

Definitely agree with all that. Not sure what happened in 15. We were poised to make some noise but it didn't happen. Withers gutting the program hurt in the short term but he laid the foundation for what Spav is building so if we can ever get past this coronavirus ordeal then we can see if Withers was right about gutting us for the long term benefit.
04-21-2020 09:20 AM
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RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
(04-19-2020 01:11 PM)whittx Wrote:  
(04-19-2020 12:46 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  
(04-15-2020 08:14 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(04-14-2020 10:40 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(04-14-2020 01:23 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The programs at ODU, Charlotte, UTSA, GA St, and USA all seem pretty interchangeable. They’ve all had their highs and lows.

Texas St sticks out to me as the poor performer of that class.

CCU and Liberty are both incomplete works in progress and it remains to be seen what trajectory they are on.

CCU, good for them if they can win and sustain at the FBS level, and I'm glad they were able to get around and over the blockage in SoCon and CAA/F, but, it wouldn't surprise me if they were bad for a long time. It goes back to the readiness thing in their selection, and the stadium/facility matter. CCU's upside was its growth and location. Football did well for where it was in the FCS landscape, but, it wasn't like Big South was a power player in the sport (it could at least send more than one team to the playoff, though).

As for a historical dog? UMass. Akron. I agree that Texas State isn't showing well. Two of the first three seasons, they were .500 or better, but it's been pretty bad ever since.

I have a feeling that CCU is going to take a lot of lumps. App St and GA Southern are well positioned to dominate SBC East. GA St could too with the right coach.

CCU got a bad deal in FCS with conference’s giving them the black ball. It’s too bad. I think the size of that school is very well suited for a great FCS program but as an FBS program I think they will always struggle against older and richer programs.

Texas St is feeling similar pains in a West dominated by the established Ark St and ULL programs.

We shouldn't even be talking about CCU. The College of Charleston is who had the worst launch...by not even having football in the first place when they're sitting in a nice metro area with a good academic reputation. And CofC has a real male:female imbalance that football would help address. They should have started football back in the 90s or early 00s, and they'd probably be in CUSA right now at worst.

CofC has really lacked ambition overall excepting the move to the CAA in basketball. They allowed a private, for-profit law school to set up in Charleston when they could have launched one. They demurred on setting up graduate programs and The Citadel ended up setting up some graduate programs to serve the community, which makes not a lick of sense institutionally. It really could be a premier school if the administration had some ambition.

But they wouldn't have gotten the permits to put the football stadium at Patriot's Point and the Citadel had a G5 ready stadium at the time.

(04-20-2020 09:19 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(04-19-2020 03:22 PM)sctvman Wrote:  They have been behind since the mid 1990s with a few decisions. Some they made, some others made.

You have to remember CofC didn’t even go D1 until 1991. As recently as 1988-89, CofC was in NAIA and the only D1 games they played were Baptist College (now Charleston Southern) and Citadel. They were a D1 independent for four seasons. In the last independent season they beat Georgia Tech, 8th in the country at Tech.

They then went to the TAAC, which was horrendous for travel. Two schools in Louisiana, FIU, FAU, Mercer, Samford, UCF, and Georgia State. They weren’t allowed to play in the conference tourney until 1997, but stole an at-large in 1994 losing to Tim Duncan’s first Wake team.

In 1995 and 96 they got NIT at-larges, then they made the tourney in ‘97, beating Maryland as a 12 seed even though they were ranked #16 in the nation. They then lost to Arizona by four points in the 2nd round, the national champs. They then made it again in ‘98 and ‘99.

They announced they were going to the SoCon in December of 1995, but couldn’t play in the league until 1998-99 because the TAAC wanted two years notice of a school leaving. That meant two more years of losing hundreds of thousands of dollars and playing in mostly band-box gyms.

Football wasn’t a consideration at the time. The Citadel was getting 12-15K a game at Johnson-Hagood, and was even using CofC’s cheerleaders.

Also not building their arena until 2008 cost them a lot. If they had built it in 2001 or 2002, they easily could have been added to the CAA in 2005 instead of Northeastern, which would have been a boon to recruiting. Georgia State was also added.

That move was all about football, which Hofstra and Northeastern dropped after ‘09, but Yeager (the commissioner at the time) adding them and Davidson would have sealed them as one of the top mid-major leagues. Northeastern probably would have stayed in the America East.

Do you think CofC's move to the CAA in 2013 was not the best, considering it came AFTER VCU, Ga. State, ODU, and Mason had left? All the best basketball resources had been depleted. Meanwhile (and granted, no one saw this coming) the SoCon has surged up the NET/RPI rankings.

Do you think CofC would return to the SoCon if it could?

BTw, my brother is a graduate of CofC. We remember that '97 team that beat Maryland and lost barely to national champion Arizona. That was a heck of a team.

At the time it was the right move. The SoCon’s TV deal was terrible at the time. Public television sub channels their last year. No cable games except for the finals on ESPN2. CofC’s home games were televised locally.

The TV deal was great the first couple of years in the league with NBCSN and Comcast, but then the commissioner basically gave up. The CAA had just the conference finals on national TV in 16-17, and most of the games were on Sinclair’s ASN effort.

Then CBSSN had the semis and finals the next 2 years. This year was when CBSSN added more games.

CofC has the highest basketball attendance in the CAA now, so the fans have mostly acclimated to the league.
04-21-2020 08:23 PM
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DFW HOYA Offline
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RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
Pre-FCS, but does Tampa count?
04-22-2020 07:52 PM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
(04-22-2020 07:52 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Pre-FCS, but does Tampa count?

I know nothing about University of Tampa football. What's the story there?
04-22-2020 08:37 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
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RE: WORST FCS promotions/launches
(04-22-2020 08:37 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(04-22-2020 07:52 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Pre-FCS, but does Tampa count?

I know nothing about University of Tampa football. What's the story there?

Apparently they had a 10-2 season and beat Miami and a trio of SEC schools in a short-lived existence. What? How is a force like that in the Tampa market not around today?
04-22-2020 09:21 PM
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